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Eddie Vedder Technique

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On 7/27/2014 at 3:25 AM, Robert Lunte said:

Vedder? I have grown to appreciate his singing a lot more then I used to. It's a subtle thing. It's not about great technique or range or really anything in the head voice ... With vedder it's tone, his quivery vibrato and passion. But if you want great technique, vedder is not the guy to listen to.

Apologies to revive this years old thread. Came across this very interesting chain. This topic seems still equally relevant. So, felt like adding my $.02 from what I've learnt over years. 

I agree that Vedder's singing is more about soulful expressiveness at the cost of losing precision. Plus his vocal tone deserves a credit.

Yet, I'd think there are techniques that we can extract from his singing. I'd like to add a few : chest voice, mixed voice, vocal compression, and resonance. Then, loosen up a  bit to pour in your soul. 

Chest pulling was a method I also tended to cling onto, in order to hit higher or energetic notes with my barritone voice, years back. Yes that was strenuous and unhealthy.

But I came across techniques such as vocal compression and mixed voice. That resolved the problem of chest pulling or strain related to it. Then to consistently control the voice tone, vocal resonance helped a lot. Eg, add resonance from head cavity onto the chest voice, to make it sound brighter and open.

Now, to add in emotions, I guess everyone has his or her way to let the heart and soul speak. :)

 

 

 

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Ya ok.

I like his voice. I like his singing. I really like his lyrics and song writing. I still think he is a pusher.

Back in 2014 it was more concerning to me, these days, "what ever". I don't care.

I enjoy the work from this album.

 

 

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Some of the absolute best singers I have ever heard had no lessons (Russell Allen, Dio, Tommy Shaw, Mickey Thomas, Jeff Soto etc.) I have interviewed several of professional singers and they just had it naturally.  I will also add, some of the absolute worse singers I have ever heard had training, sometimes for years and they still sound horrendous.  I believe you need to he born with something to work with.  If you sound like shit from the start, you probably will never be a good singer.  At least that's my take on things.

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16 hours ago, HiCu said:

Some of the absolute best singers I have ever heard had no lessons (Russell Allen, Dio, Tommy Shaw, Mickey Thomas, Jeff Soto etc.) I have interviewed several of professional singers and they just had it naturally.  I will also add, some of the absolute worse singers I have ever heard had training, sometimes for years and they still sound horrendous.  I believe you need to he born with something to work with.  If you sound like shit from the start, you probably will never be a good singer.  At least that's my take on things.

For starters, you are assuming that these singers never had any coaches. You have not validated your assertion. I believe they have had coaches from time to time in their careers. In regards to people being able to improve from nothing, it is an absolute fact that you can. In that regard, you are totally wrong. You need to get more informed about singing and training for it is seems. 

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     What is the difference between formal training and training yourself? Read a few interviews from these guys and you will find out that they either started out at a young age or Learned from other musicians and singers and worked on sounding good.

     The difference is in wanting to sound better and working at it.

From an interview in guitar Player Magazine: Tommy Shaw 

"GP: Were you copping licks off records and radio?

Tommy: Right. It was more fun trying to figure out "I Want To Hold Your Hand" and "I Saw Her Standing There" than to take those lessons. By this time I knew my basic chords. There were some older guitarists on my side of town, and I got to know many of them. I would go and try just monkey-see monkey-do, which was always a lot easier. I was never a very good student until long after I got out of high school. It took me that long to realize the importance of having somebody who knows teach you something.

GP: Was it your R&B background that gave you an appreciation for playing behind vocals?
Tommy: When I was a little blue-eyed soul brother I learned how to do the scattin' stuff kind of like George Benson does, where you play and sing the same notes. I really got into that. It's a lot more than just cranking out riffs on the guitar because you're singing in unison, or in harmony, with your playing. It used to be a trademark of mine back in the old days."

 

I would say singing in unison with a guitar riff is a pretty good workout wouldn't you? A nice way to train the voice?

Jeff Scott Soto from Wikipedia 

"Having a keyboard in the house growing up, he taught himself by ear how to play his favorite songs on the radio but it wasn't until middle school where (playing trumpet) he learned to read music. Using this new technical knowledge, he began fronting his first band at the age of 12."

Playing trumpet you learn breath control. One of the fundamentals of structured lessons. So, He first taught himself....That does not mean he was born with it. That means he worked on it.

 

Dio: Wiki

 "His family moved to Portsmouth from Cortland as part of his father's service in the U.S. Army during World War II[11] and they resided there for only a short time before returning to Cortland. Padavona listened to a great deal of opera while growing up, and was influenced vocally by American tenor Mario Lanza.[12] His first formal musical training began at age 5, learning to play the trumpet.[12] "     "Despite being known for his powerful singing voice, Padavona claimed to have never received any vocal training.[15] He instead attributed his singing ability to the use of breathing techniques he learned while playing trumpet.[16]

In an interview from hammer magazine:

"Was music in your blood?

“There were no musicians in the family whatsoever, but due to Italian culture music was embedded in the town. I grew up listening to a lot of opera, which really affected my singing style.”

So you have someone who is learning music and playing trumpet from the age of 5 and listening to Opera.    A natural born singer? Not really. Someone who was singing opera from the age of 5 and who learned breath control AND had formal MUSIC  training from that time on.  A childhood of conditioning to be a singer. Not natural born.

 

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There's formal training vs informal training.

There's instruction vs self-teaching.

There's coach vs no coach.

(Let's say that an instructor or teacher is focused more on building technique, and a coach more on regime, exercise and maintenance.)

You can be self-taught formally, or receive informal instruction, so there are all sorts of combination.

Even teachers who give formal instruction (standard methods and exercises) encourage their students to experiment, explore, and use a certain amount of improvisation. So informal training can encompass informal elements.

Do you absolutely have to train using bub-bub-bub-bub and meeeeeeeeeeeh and all the other standard god awful :) sounds. Of course not. People were singing long before these methods became standard. Are singers getting better over generations, as method evolves? I've not heard any evidence of that.

I don't think that you are stuck with either extreme. Prepared method (formal training) has the advantage of giving you direct access to the benefit of research, but without the customization you get when you devise your own exercises. On the other hand, each way can lead you to practise things that are not optimal for your personal instrument or goals. You just have to be vigilant and have a good instinct for what is good for you.

As for instructed vs self-taught, there are too many scare stories knocking around. If you don't get an instructor you "WILL" damage you voice......you "WON'T" know if you are doing the exercises correctly (but the instructor "WILL"?)......you "CAN'T" hear yourself properly and you "NEED" an instructor to tell you how you "REALLY SOUND"......you will take forever to improve if you improve at all, blah blah blah. It's mainly marketplace blurb. None of these things are a given. Ultimately, the buck is always with you in deciding how much instruction you need, where to get it from, whom to "trust" or listen to, and how much to trust or listen to them. People can get very frustrated through not realizing that the buck stops with them.

As for coaching, well some people seem to need a coach for motivation, others less so. I know a girl who would pay a fitness coach forty pounds for an hour for a fixed exercise routine. When I asked her why, she said she'd otherwise lose motivation and stop going to the gym. ;)  (The "date" with the coach was a psychological boost that took away the physical pain.. ;))

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It´s true that there are people that are significantly better or worse at the skill, it´s also true that everyone works for it in some manner, and it´s true that for the extreme cases normal instruction might not be very efficient, either by being bellow the capability of one of these genius level individuals, or because it´s just totally beyond what a person that has extreme difficulty with singing can cope with.

The core of the matter is this: If you consider that everyone that gets good worked for it somehow, and that one of the common points on extremely competent performers is that they were singing at high level from a very early age, the inevitable conclusion is that this talent, if you will call it that, can be resumed to learning speed.

And what can be done about learning speed? It seems to be:

- Keep learning;

- Learn as fast as you can.

Two things that seems to be extremely important to stick to this plan:

- Sing everyday;

- Record yourself singing songs and evaluate it by the same standard you evaluate music you consume.

 

First one is straight forward, if you are not singing, you are not learning. End of story.

Second one is a tool that is pretty much of free access nowdays, recording, which gives you a very reliable feedback on what you are doing, but the crucial part is to NOT lower your bar with excuses.

 

And then there are learning tools, voice teachers, programs, coachs, communities. On our messenger group you can very easily sing to a bunch of people that are also learning and get feedback and different ideas on the fly for example. All  of these can speed up learning,  effectively making you more *talented*. ;)

TL/DR It´s a race to skill.

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I have seen several cases of an artist/musician/'singer confronting the comment "such a natural born talent" and the reply/look on the face says "Natrural? I worked like hell on this "Natural" talent."

Learning, improving, training never stops.

If you are taking lessons and the training stops when you walk out of the Teacher/coaches studio....then don't blame the teacher.

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16 minutes ago, MDEW said:

I have seen several cases of an artist/musician/'singer confronting the comment "such a natural born talent" and the reply/look on the face says "Natrural? I worked like hell on this "Natural" talent."

Examples? Videos? Interviews? That would be handy...

Part of the problem I have noticed, and it is not only among professionals, is that people often like to hide the hard work, and then "step out into the limelight glistening and glowing with 'talent'...". Maybe it is pragmatic marketing? Maybe they don't want trolls circulating the fact that they are "human". Fans like to believe that their heroes "wrote a number one hit in 3 minutes flat while in a fit of rage and then sang it perfectly in one take..". I think that marketing pressures perpetuate these myths and the idea of that you may be one of the "lucky ones" who "just sing" and chart-topping stuff flows out at once.

As one lucky person said, "the more I work my bollox off, the luckier I get".

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It is hard to find references and videos from things that you have heard through the years. And yes, on the promotion end of things, the hard work gets hidden. Now that we do have the internet we can find recording out takes and listen to what was going on in the studio, at least from times past. Hearing George Martin having a fit with the Beatles and exclaiming "Take 204" then hear John in the background with a voice crack or Cracking a joke, then, even more frustrated "Take 205" is a real eye opener.

Plus the songs you hear recorded were worked out and polished....it could be years in the making before you hear the finished product on the radio or recording. Songs are cut and pieced together from different recordings and put back together. The "Band" learns the song from it's finished product before playing to an audience.

Sure, you hear stories like Aerosmyth renting recording time and writing the songs while in the studio. I still think most of that is hype to promote  the "Talent".

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6 hours ago, kickingtone said:

.you "WON'T" know if you are doing the exercises correctly (but the instructor "WILL"?)......you "CAN'T" hear yourself properly and you "NEED" an instructor to tell you how you "REALLY SOUND"

... which is one of the main points of taking lessons. You are hiring the "ears" of the coach to tell you what you need to do. You need diagnostics and prescriptions to fix issues. And this isn't just for beginners. It applies to everyone. You can zigzag, chase your tell and remain confused and clueless and kinda get some kind of , sorta progress... or you can get there by following a straight line to success, given by someone that is trained to do it. A voice coach doesn't make people sing better or create stars, but if they are good, they certainly DO remove obstacles and hasten the time to get results. You can do your own accounting, or you can hire a CPA to have it done right.

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I am not posting this link just to pitch my 'thing'... I am mostly doing this to make the point...

Click the link below...

These are real people. Real singers, customers that purchased "a training program" and then applied themselves and started working through it. These videos and posts are not fake. These are the real, sincere comments of people like all of us... that decided to make a commitment and actually get going... They have been helped immensely with vocal training programs. And even the most talented and gifted among us, can benefit from a good coaches ears and techniques. Nobody gets a pass on learning more, improving, having "uh-ha" moments, getting stronger, fixing an issue here and there, etc... 

END OF STORY... on any questions about the validity of voice coaches and programs.

https://thevocaliststudio.com/testimonials/

 

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22 hours ago, HiCu said:

Some of the absolute best singers I have ever heard had no lessons (Russell Allen, Dio, Tommy Shaw, Mickey Thomas, Jeff Soto etc.) I have interviewed several of professional singers and they just had it naturally.  I will also add, some of the absolute worse singers I have ever heard had training, sometimes for years and they still sound horrendous.  I believe you need to he born with something to work with.  If you sound like shit from the start, you probably will never be a good singer.  At least that's my take on things.

And have you persanoly spoken to these singer to confirm this? and which profesanol singers have you interviewed that made the bold claim that they had it naturaly, and what is the name of yhis horible little singer you are refering

 

ENLIGHTEN US WITH YOU PEARLS OF WISDOM???

Who are you and what buisness you have in music?

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On 8/27/2019 at 11:09 PM, Robert Lunte said:

For starters, you are assuming that these singers never had any coaches. You have not validated your assertion. I believe they have had coaches from time to time in their careers. In regards to people being able to improve from nothing, it is an absolute fact that you can. In that regard, you are totally wrong. You need to get more informed about singing before you make such statements. 

I validate my comments from their interviews and myself talking to other great singers in person. Russell Allen, Jeff Scott Soto, Dio, etc. and others I have spoken with said they were always able to sing.  It was more of a feeling within them.  They all said they had no teacher. The great singer Franco Corelli had no teacher. A teacher actually destroyed his voice and Franco had to rebuild it himself.  I'm not saying lessons can't help some folks but most great singers have a lot in their favor to start with.  A natural talent is a great (must) starting point.  Natural talent in any discipline plus hardwork, leads to the great accomplishments we see in life. No natural talent plus hardwork will not lead very far.  All you have to do is open your eyes and ears.  I could never be a Tom Brady for example.  I can throw a football and run but I had no natural talent in that area, nothing to build on. 

 I realize this is a big world with many different view points and opinions.  If someone wants to give singing lessons a try, go for it.  

Peace!

 

I didn't mean to stir up a ruckus.  Lol

I will close my comments with my last statement:

 

I realize this is a big world with many different view points and opinions.  If someone wants to give singing lessons a try, go for it.  

Peace!

 

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12 hours ago, HiCu said:

I validate my comments from their interviews and myself talking to other great singers in person. Russell Allen, Jeff Scott Soto, Dio, etc. and others I have spoken with said they were always able to sing.  It was more of a feeling within them.  They all said they had no teacher. The great singer Franco Corelli had no teacher. A teacher actually destroyed his voice and Franco had to rebuild it himself.  I'm not saying lessons can't help some folks but most great singers have a lot in their favor to start with.  A natural talent is a great (must) starting point.  Natural talent in any discipline plus hardwork, leads to the great accomplishments we see in life. No natural talent plus hardwork will not lead very far.  All you have to do is open your eyes and ears.  I could never be a Tom Brady for example.  I can throw a football and run but I had no natural talent in that area, nothing to build on. 

 I realize this is a big world with many different view points and opinions.  If someone wants to give singing lessons a try, go for it.  

Peace!

 

I didn't mean to stir up a ruckus.  Lol

I will close my comments with my last statement:

 

I realize this is a big world with many different view points and opinions.  If someone wants to give singing lessons a try, go for it.  

Peace!

 

Natural talent? Yes, it helps. And it should be accounted for. No arguments there. But you should know, it isn't as big of a factor as people tend to assume.

But your claims about what these singers did or didn't do, and your claim to have spoke with them personally... and even if you did, and they told you they have never had any coaching of any kind, that still doesn't mean it is absolutely true.

I've been doing this for over 20 years and I'm not basing my argument on my opinion and what I think is true because of what I want to believe. It is based on real life experience, working with thousands of singers of every level for many years, as well as hundreds of voice coaches and colleagues in the industry.

What ever... Glad you are here and having fun.

 

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Thanks Robert.  I guess what I'm trying to say with word natural talent is they find the property vocal configuration early on.  Then they just work on dev songs because the mechanics are already in place.  I have seen this over and over again with really natural singers I grew up with. 

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13 minutes ago, HiCu said:

Thanks Robert.  I guess what I'm trying to say with word natural talent is they find the property vocal configuration early on.  Then they just work on dev songs because the mechanics are already in place.  I have seen this over and over again with really natural singers I grew up with. 

Until they get fatigued, tired and burn out far earlier than they ever needed to because the gift they were given, was not optimized.

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1 hour ago, HiCu said:

Thanks Robert.  I guess what I'm trying to say with word natural talent is they find the property vocal configuration early on.  Then they just work on dev songs because the mechanics are already in place.  I have seen this over and over again with really natural singers I grew up with. 

Some of us grew up around "natural" singers and still had trouble because you were told to use your "Natural" voice. In the mean time your "natural" voice had issues that could have been straightened out with some who could tell them their natural voice was too light and go ahead sing like Elvis or Lou Rawls for a while. Or maybe a Teacher?

My own biggest trouble was expecting my natural voice to be sufficient. It was not. Now I am making gains and people are liking what they hear enough to pay me.

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3 hours ago, HiCu said:

 I have seen this over and over again with really natural singers I grew up with. 

And until will see some names and testomonies you are only foolling your self

 

Well hear is my testomony little man!

This tuesday on open mic night, a lady said to me was that a robbie williams song and I said yer it was. She said I used to teach him when he was 16 when his manager sent him to me

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6 hours ago, Robert Lunte said:

 

What ever... Glad you are here and having fun.

 

I heared comments on thejimmyshitforbrains and the classical music forum things like, theresa may is not cut out to be a racing driver nad other things I ecept my limitations and a bass can not sing C6

 

Well for a set off theresa may could not tie her show laces nevermind run a countory, she never ran it she had advisers run it for her telling her what to say and which boxes to tick

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