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What do u think of Roger Love's gug excersises?

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At best it's going to do nothing for you since you've already done them and they didn't work the first time. At worst, they could injure you if you keep trying.

It's a glottal attack, not terribly healthy to do repetitively and directionless. Felipe already explained that all it does is it forces the glottis to stay together no matter how much air pressure you use and judging by your sound clip, you're a blower like I was. I've already explained to you that I got physical pain when I did them and developed a prolonged injury near their introduction. You've already explained to us probably 20 times that you've been sitting there straining and failing to sing either in tune or comfortably.

Think about all of this logically. What does this mean? If you are trying to move forward, and find yourself slamming your head into a wall, what do you do? Stop. Right now. Get a different teacher, either lessons with Rob or anyone else who knows voice very well and/or rethink your approach to voice.

1. Make singing without strain your number one priority over range. Do it now.

2. Use less breath in your tone, support better, stop pushing for high notes that aren't comfortable.

3. Develop a head voice

4. Learn how to connect it to your chest voice, rather than trying to force a mix voice with random 'exercises.' You don't force this to happen and you can't force this to happen. It comes naturally with patience and appropriate knowledge/supervision.

This is what you need to do. This is the last time I suggest it, I suggest you take this to heart right now. What you are trying to do is pound a square peg (chest voice) through a round hole (mix voice) through sheer repetition. All of the random exercises you are trying are the hammers you are using to pound your voice with. That's what SLS without a very qualified teacher is all about. There is nothing wrong with square pegs so long as you respect what they are meant to do and their comfortable limitations, but they don't go in round holes like that. The way you are trying to force this to happen through pounding on it is a lot more dangerous than just accepting the square peg for what is.

You need to create a round peg for this task, which cannot be forced and doesn't involve destroying the square one. You need to rethink your approach and are badly in need of a professional and/or better information.

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At best it's going to do nothing for you since you've already done them and they didn't work the first time. At worst, they could injure you if you keep trying.

It's a glottal attack, not terribly healthy to do repetitively and directionless. Felipe already explained that all it does is it forces the glottis to stay together no matter how much air pressure you use and judging by your sound clip, you're a blower like I was. I've already explained to you that I got physical pain when I did them and developed a prolonged injury near their introduction. You've already explained to us probably 20 times that you've been sitting there straining and failing to sing either in tune or comfortably.

Think about all of this logically. What does this mean? If you are trying to move forward, and find yourself slamming your head into a wall, what do you do? Stop. Right now. Get a different teacher, either lessons with Rob or anyone else who knows voice very well and/or rethink your approach to voice.

1. Make singing without strain your number one priority over range. Do it now.

2. Use less breath in your tone, support better, stop pushing for high notes that aren't comfortable.

3. Develop a head voice

4. Learn how to connect it to your chest voice, rather than trying to force a mix voice with random 'exercises.' You don't force this to happen and you can't force this to happen. It comes naturally with patience and appropriate knowledge/supervision.

This is what you need to do. This is the last time I suggest it, I suggest you take this to heart right now. What you are trying to do is pound a square peg (chest voice) through a round hole (mix voice) through sheer repetition. All of the random exercises you are trying are the hammers you are using to pound your voice with. That's what SLS without a very qualified teacher is all about. There is nothing wrong with square pegs so long as you respect what they are meant to do and their comfortable limitations, but they don't go in round holes like that. The way you are trying to force this to happen through pounding on it is a lot more dangerous than just accepting the square peg for what is.

You need to create a round peg for this task, which cannot be forced and doesn't involve destroying the square one. You need to rethink your approach and are badly in need of a professional and/or better information.

There is no such thing as "pushing a chest voice" - what people mean by this term is trying to sing higher while constricting and not supporting enough. It's very possible to sing high in what people would think sounds like a "chest voice" due to the folds being kept thick, with in CVT-terms modes Edge or Overdrive. Also "develop a head voice" doesn't really say anything because it's impossible to know what you mean. A mix voice is not really a mix of anything, rather just the folds thinning out more as you ascend - a different setup.

Basically, you need to learn how to sing and let the folds thin so you can reach higher pitches, which is not something you do but rather a result of correct vowel modification, vocal tract shape and sufficient support.

"Gug" are basically glottal attacks which will compress the cords so you won't crack as easily when trying to sing higher in a light manner. Practising light glottal attacks with gug for shorter durations of time probably won't do anything, but it's a crutch as you later will have to sing without "gug" all the time, so why not just use a vowel sound?

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There is no such thing as "pushing a chest voice" - what people mean by this term is trying to sing higher while constricting and not supporting enough. It's very possible to sing high in what people would think sounds like a "chest voice" due to the folds being kept thick, with in CVT-terms modes Edge or Overdrive. Also "develop a head voice" doesn't really say anything because it's impossible to know what you mean. A mix voice is not really a mix of anything, rather just the folds thinning out more as you ascend - a different setup.

Basically, you need to learn how to sing and let the folds thin so you can reach higher pitches, which is not something you do but rather a result of correct vowel modification, vocal tract shape and sufficient support.

"Gug" are basically glottal attacks which will compress the cords so you won't crack as easily when trying to sing higher in a light manner. Practising light glottal attacks with gug for shorter durations of time probably won't do anything, but it's a crutch as you later will have to sing without "gug" all the time, so why not just use a vowel sound?

What I meant by chest voice is thick fold action. It reaches a breaking point if doesn't thin out, known as vocal break. What I describe as head voice is thinned vocal cords, mix is transitioning between the two for a smooth transition involving many other factors. That's my useless technical understanding. Could be wrong, don't care. Doesn't matter, not one of you can see it in action.

Please don't further confuse Neugie with tech jargon. He's already very confused and going nowhere fast, straining his voice and trying random garbage.

I sang comfortably with thick vocal folds (chest voice, square peg) for 3 years before trying to pound it into a round hole (mix voice) in ignorance. I tried a whole bunch of random junk with no education, exactly like Neugie is doing (he has done both tongue stretch and gug exercises, yay). He doesn't need to try a bunch of random junk, he needs to learn to thin the folds (head voice) and stop over blowing which will likely involve some lessons with someone qualified if he wants to ascend in pitch comfortably. Sure he could use vowel modifications, but that's far from the only thing and won't fix his problems of straining and singing out of tune.

He needs lessons, with someone really good. Maybe CVT would help, but if he doesn't understand that he is doing this wrong yet, after about 20 different threads, I think he needs someone else there to guide him.

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What I meant by chest voice is thick fold action, dominated by thyro artynoid to stretch the mechanism. It reaches a breaking point if don't thin out. What I describe as head voice is thinned vocal cords, (controlled by cricothyroid), mix is transitioning between the two for a smooth transition involving many other factors. That's my useless technical understanding. Could be wrong, don't care.

Please don't further confuse Neugie with tech jargon. He's already very confused and going nowhere fast.

I sang comfortably with thick vocal folds (chest voice, square peg) for 3 years before trying to pound it into a round hole (mix voice) in ignorance. I tried a whole bunch of random junk with no education, exactly like Neugie is doing (he has done both tongue stretch and gug exercises). He doesn't need to try a bunch of random junk, he needs to learn to thin the folds (head voice) stop over blowing which will likely involve some lessons with someone qualified if he wants to ascend in pitch comfortably. Sure he could use vowel modifications, but that's far from the only thing and won't fix this problem.

You can sing with thick folds (overdrive) up to C5 and edge is limitless. It reaches a breaking point if you fail to support, modify the vowels or use an appropriate vocal tract shape. Thinning the folds is not something you do by will, it's just a side effect of correct technique.

You are still not clear with "head voice". You have to thin the folds (in varying degrees) to ascend in pitch. Most people will probably associate "head voice" with how Brett Manning demonstrates it, or neutral without air as CVT would put it. Doing "head voice" all day won't help you get mixed/curbing/thinner folds.

Basically you need a vocal teacher - this is the most important tip you'll get on here.

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You can sing with thick folds (overdrive) up to C5 and edge is limitless. It reaches a breaking point if you fail to support, modify the vowels or use an appropriate vocal tract shape. Thinning the folds is not something you do by will, it's just a side effect of correct technique.

You are still not clear with "head voice". You have to thin the folds (in varying degrees) to ascend in pitch. Most people will probably associate "head voice" with how Brett Manning demonstrates it, or neutral without air as CVT would put it. Doing "head voice" all day won't help you get mixed/curbing/thinner folds.

Basically you need a vocal teacher - this is the most important tip you'll get on here.

If you moan in head voice, you can connect it over bridge. But you can't overblow or push a heavy voice configuration like both Neugie and I had. Yes a teacher is helpful and vowel modifications can be necessary, but I'm not convinced they are as necessary as people say.

If you start from head voice, and work your way down. You can bridge a lot safer and easier than going up taking up all of the habits you gained from pushing chest voice (thick folds) upward. A higher chest voice is not as immediately disastrous as people here say, so long as it's comfortable and not 'modified' too much with additional 'compression' and tension. If it's tense, give up on that note.

Starting from head voice, and working your way down involves, abandoning all of the 'push' that virtually every untrained singer in the entire world is accustomed to doing that almost always involves reaching a limit in range, but is otherwise not an immediate danger unless taken to the extreme.

But why you want to talk about this when Neugie needs a teacher, I have no idea. He doesn't get it, after 20 threads. I've been trying to tell him that if he wants to sing up there, he needs to do things differently. Trying to start light instead of bellowing 100 percent in chest voice is exactly what the doctor ordered. It's the same advice that might have saved me. If you want to bellow in a really heavy voice like I did, it's not that big of a deal, I did it for years, but DO NOT make your first attempt at bridging in one.

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If you moan in head voice, you can connect it over bridge.

Again, this makes no sense since you have not defined head voice other than thinner folds. When you moan/cry you change your vocal setup - you can use the curbing/mixed setup in your low or high range, does that mean I'm in my head voice when I'm in my chest voice? You see the confusion when these terms are used.

But you can't overblow or push a heavy voice configuration like both Neugie and I had.

True, which is why I said support was essential. Supporting correctly means you are not pushing too much air.

Yes a teacher is helpful and vowel modifications can be necessary, but I'm not convinced they are as necessary as people say.

Vocal tract shape and vowel modification is a must, just read the formants thread for a scientific explanation. Sure you can "get away" a little with not modifying the vowels, but your voice will suffer. Some things are just not possible without vowel mods.

If you start from head voice, and work your way down. You can bridge a lot safer and easier than going up taking up all of the habits you gained from pushing chest voice (thick folds) upward. A higher chest voice is not as immediately disastrous as people here say, so long as it's comfortable and not 'modified' too much with additional 'compression' and tension.

Starting from head voice, and working your way down involves, abandoning all of the 'push' that virtually every untrained singer in the entire world is accustomed to doing that almost always involves reaching a limit in range, but is otherwise not an immediate danger unless taken to the extreme.

It's not hard to not allow tension and strain, if you feel strain or bad tension stop doing what you're doing. You don't have to do top down, just don't permit tension.

But why you want to talk about this when Neugie needs a teacher, I have no idea. He doesn't get it, after 20 threads. I've been trying to tell him that if he wants to sing up there, he needs to do things differently and trying to start light instead of pushing is exactly what the doctor ordered.

Because I think your first post was filled with non-concrete advice. If he doesn't want to get a teacher that's his choice, and if he chooses not to he might sacrifice time or maybe even vocal health - his choice.

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Let me drive this point home. This is me pre injury using my untrained bellowing voice with no problems, cause it had a range limitation that I respected (about G#4):

http://soundcloud.com/killerku/younevergivemeyourmoney

I did not know how to bridge all the way with this voice. I tried to bridge with that ignorant voice with random exercises. Injured myself. I have constant pain in my voice now.

This here is a post injury clip, of me fighting through pain and problems on my absolute best day, knowing everything I knew about bridging and learning to use a lighter mechanism:

http://soundcloud.com/killerku/sinceilostmybaby

The difference? I lightened the tone and used less air and applied a soft moan and gained more of a bridge. The rules are different for a thick bellowing voice, like my previous one. It's dangerous to bridge in ignorance especially if you have a history of pushing your chest voice as high as it comfortably goes and using more air.

You cannot bellow across a full bridge like that. That's why there is a falsetto break. It pushes to a point, and gives up cause that's as far as it goes. The fact that it gives up, is good, because it saves voices from having even more pressure. A gug ensures, that no matter how much pressure, it won't give up and break apart into falsetto relief. It's quite possible that I literally clamped my voice shut with gug and bellowed at the same time but it didn't let go when the pressure was too much because the exercise was tampering with the mechanism.

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Let me drive this point home. This is me pre injury using my untrained bellowing voice with no problems, cause it had a range limitation that I respected (about G#4):

http://soundcloud.com/killerku/younevergivemeyourmoney

I tried to bridge with that ignorant voice with random exercises. Injured myself. I have constant pain in my voice now.

This here is a post injury clip, of me fighting through pain and problems on my absolute best day, knowing everything I knew about bridging and learning to use a lighter mechanism:

http://soundcloud.com/killerku/sinceilostmybaby

The difference? I lightened the tone and used less air and applied a soft moan and gained more of a bridge. The rules are different for a thick bellowing voice, like my previous one. It's dangerous to bridge in ignorance especially if you have a history of pushing your chest voice as high as it comfortably goes and using more air.

In neither of the clips you are singing above what people refer to as the passaggio area. You'll get away with no vowel mods here but you wouldn't if you were singing higher.

What on earth do you mean by "gained more of a bridge"? It's easier to sing lower volume since it requires less support, so if your support technique is faulty you are less likely to strain with lower volume. The higher you sing the more rules you have to follow to protect your voice.

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In neither of the clips you are singing above what people refer to as the passaggio area. You'll get away with no vowel mods here but you wouldn't if you were singing higher.

What on earth do you mean by "gained more of a bridge"? It's easier to sing lower volume since it requires less support, so if your support technique is faulty you are less likely to strain with lower volume. The higher you sing the more rules you have to follow to protect your voice.

I sang a G#4 in the first song, and a B4 or a C5 in Since I lost my Baby, and a A4 in Since I lost my baby. The second song was acapella so it was not 'in tune' and I have a voice injury.

Singing low volume is actually harder for a lot of people, by the way to keep any body in the tone.

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I sang a G#4 in the first song, and a B4 or a C5 in Since I lost my Baby, and a A4 in Since I lost my baby. The second song was acapella so it was not 'in tune' and I have a voice injury.

Singing low volume is actually harder for a lot of people, by the way.

Could you give me time stamps so I can check it out please?

I only said singing lower volume requires less support, not that it was easier.

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Could you give me time stamps so I can check it out please?

I only said singing lower volume requires less support, not that it was easier.

1:34 in the first song: One Sweet Dream. Highest comfortable note I had. (G#4)

Second song, try 0:54: Won't you 'please' bridged into a light head voice C5 through a cry mechanism. There are also a whole bunch of G4s or higher that are not shouted, or bellowed, which makes this kind of voice much easier to maintain over passaggio.

The point being, if I kept the bellow from the first voice, it would never, ever, work with SLS and was destined for strain/damage/problems trying all of their random crap in ignorance. The first voice was the square peg (not really bad, it just did what it did, kind of a bellowing buff voice), the random exercises were the hammers trying to push it into a round hole.

The second voice is actually kind of what SLS is 'supposed' to do. It has very little to do with gugs, and much more with lightening up the mechanism, using less air, and not being so 'heavy' so the crying over the bridge doesn't add extra 'compression' to an already compressed voice.

If I started with that C5 and moved it down over the passaggio, I'd have an easier time than pushing up the bellow and adding cry. That's too much tension and compression in the voice. It's not good.

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Thanks, I listened to your clips.

The G4-G#4 was very quick so you would obviously survive it, it's a different thing if you were to actually sustain it for a few seconds.

The second clip was neutral - can't really tell if with or without air, doesn't really matter. Neutral with air is generally what people refer to as falsetto and neutral without as "head voice".

Finding this kind of "head voice" is not really a great achievement, it's very easy to do, it's not even neccesary to be able to do neutral without air to sing high in any other mode and it does not sound full. - It depends on who you ask, but it's not really considered full voice. Some TA involvement is needed to get what most people would think is full voice. If you told someone you could sing all the way up to E5 and switch to neutral without air at E4 they would want their money back.

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Thanks, I listened to your clips.

The G4-G#4 was very quick so you would obviously survive it, it's a different thing if you were to actually sustain it for a few seconds.

The second clip was neutral - can't really tell if with or without air, doesn't really matter. Neutral with air is generally what people refer to as falsetto and neutral without as "head voice".

Finding this kind of "head voice" is not really a great achievement, it's very easy to do, it's not even neccesary to be able to do neutral without air to sing high in any other mode and it does not sound full. - It depends on who you ask, but it's not really considered full voice. Some TA involvement is needed to get what most people would think is full voice. If you told someone you could sing all the way up to E5 and switch to neutral without air at E4 they would want their money back.

The second clip is primarily a light mix voice (curbing without conscious vowel modification) in passaggio, with transition into neutral C5. There is enough cry to add body to the tone and it is not airy.

It was intentionally made as soft as possible (bottom limits of cry), because with my injury, full on chest voice is the most painful.

This features a lot more neutral, though some notes are cried into a mix:

http://soundcloud.com/killerku/youremyeverything

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About the exercises, whar for? What in your voice requires this pattern and what would those exercises accomplish?

That's the way I see it. If working on glottal closure is somehow desired, wouldn't you want to do this in a more organized way with an end goal too?

I think people should just get a teacher. A good one.

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The second clip is primarily a light mix voice (curbing without conscious vowel modification) in passaggio, with transition into neutral C5. There is enough cry to add body to the tone and it is not airy.

It was intentionally made as soft as possible (bottom limits of cry), because with my injury, full on chest voice is the most painful.

This features a lot more neutral, though some notes are cried into a mix:

http://soundcloud.com/killerku/youremyeverything

Actually it's C#5 and it's definitely neutral, you need volume 4-7/10 meaning 40-70% of your max volume and this was too quiet.

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And about pushing chest, there is such thing WHEN the references used are just chest and head. Mixing another reference system will not work.

Pushing chest means going up on the passaggio retaining the sensations used to reference chest voice.

Doing it without support is simply screamming. Doing it WHEN you are trying to use head is a technical problem.

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Actually it's C#5 and it's definitely neutral, you need volume 4-7/10 meaning 40-70% of your max volume and this was too quiet.

You can't tell the volume, dude, it's a recording (possibly) with compression. And the C#5 is note is most definitely neutral. The rest is about 4 out of 10 on volume, which is very difficult to maintain.

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And about pushing chest, there is such thing WHEN puthe references used are chest and head. Mixing another reference system will not work.

Pushing chest means going up on the passaggio retaining the sensations used to reference chest voice.

Doing it withou support is simply screamming. Doing it WHEN you are trying to use head is a technical problem.

Yeah, support was one of the few technical things I knew how to do pretty well, that's why I could get the bellowing voice up pretty comfortably.

But when I read that using a loud voice like that was 'bad and dangerous' I changed it in ignorance in a hurry. Bad idea people. Get a teacher and if you don't, take things slow and get educated. Don't change everything in a hurry.

I was only talking about the C#5 :)

Good, then we couldn't agree more. :D

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