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interesting comparison of pitch vs. tone

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i was asked to try to sing this last night for the first time...tough song.....harder than i realized.

you're just riding in the passagio.

but here's a very interesting thing:

first you have the beatles doing it. (i wish i could have found a good live video recording.)

next, we have lou gramm doing it live.

same key, but note how gramm's deeper voice changes your perception of pitch relative to the different voice timbres! also note how the deeper voice requires a little more struggle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICHVLS4qkDs&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLA354B74392780C14

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Indeed! Another example is Jeff Scott Soto singing Journey songs, he's a low tenor contrary to Steve Perry's lyrical tenor. At first listen one might have thunk they had been lowered two whole steps or so but that's one of the very fascinating things about voices...

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Bob - Great example. I'll take a whack at it. I think the differences are based on a few factors:

1) height of the larynx. In CVT terms, you can influence the "darkness" or depth of the tone by raising or lowering the larynx. People have a natural larynx position, but you can lower it more to get a darker tone, or raise to sound more like the Beatles. In opera, a low larynx is a must.

2) the hardness of the inside walls of the cavaties - the thinner the skin inside the mouth and throat, the hardner the cartilage and so forth, the brighter the tone. Lou may have slightly thicker / softer inside walls. Gives more of a mellow tone. That can be influenced too.

3) the 3rd formant controls brighness too - so if you expose your teeth and shorten this last formant resonantor the brighter you'll get. The way you shape your lips changes this too.

4) tongue position - with a lower tongue position, you can get a brighter tone. If found that out personally. When singing a high note, looking in the mirror, if I drop the tongue in the back, the tone gets brighter instantly. When I first expanded my range my tongue was "in the way" and the tone wasn't as bright. It was hard for me to keep my tongue down at first.

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thanks so much geno. this explains a lot.

the sad thing about this type of situation is i think most non-singers would think lou sang a little under the notes, or wasn't as brilliant sounding as the beatles tone, making lou (or voices like lou's) appear less skilled.

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raphaels - I'm not sure about the tip of the tongue, and I'm sure it depends on the vowel.. The tip may have to do with the 3rd formant. With the back of the tongue thing, I was trying to emulate Tamplin who advocates a low "concave" tongue with the "ah" vowel. Same with the "eh" vowel. On a C5 for example, I used to have a real hard time bringing the back of my tongue down. Now it's not problem for me. The tone gets a whole lot brighter when it stays down on an "ah" or "eh".

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to my ears: the tone position of the one of the Beatles are a bit higher than the 2nd example. That means of course as guitartrek said: the larynx position was higher. I would give you some tips about it. IF YOU will look at the 2nd example. Look at the mimics of this guy. He looks suffering. That expression is lowering the soft palate. Try while singing always breath from your nose. mouth closed (at list when you warm up). and try NOT to have sad expression , or serious one on your face. instead try some joyful expression with high cheek bones. when you prepared yourself to the first tone get air through nose to the spaces in face where you think the first tone is. really try to look for it fiscally. and then with support start to sing it. don't push your voice. instead use your cheek bones for high notes. But a really important thing is your facial expression. tell me what you think...

:)

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sure, you're referring to using more mask. but the point i was trying to make was both are great singers but the pitch perception changes to almost have you think that lou under the notes, when in fact he isn't.

if we had never heard the beatles original first, it would have been been interesting to see which one a non-singer would have preferred.

the crisp sharper lyric tone of the beatles, or the deeper and warmer tone of gramm.

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Dunno, maybe if you let the audience compare both versions this could happen. But just hearing it, it does not sound a different pitch.

Also lets not forget that besides the tonal difference, Paul used a much lighter approach in the whole song, Lou Gramm is going loud.

Im glad we have both to hear :D

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Dunno, maybe if you let the audience compare both versions this could happen. But just hearing it, it does not sound a different pitch.

Also lets not forget that besides the tonal difference, Paul used a much lighter approach in the whole song, Lou Gramm is going loud.

Im glad we have both to hear :D

Small deal, but it's John, not Paul :D

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you know when i listen to this again, knowing lou gramm and his range, i wonder if he himself might have been more comfortable singing this song a half step up or more. maybe he was singing under his sweet spot, which actually might have been higher.

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I always try to keep my voice loose. With a loose voice I get a perfect balance of dark tone, and easy highs. But if i have a tense voice that's not warmed up, either i sing in a lower pitch, where the high notes wear out quicker, or i sing in a higher pitch but lose all the timbre.

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Here's my two cents worth on this particular video

The Beatles, particularly Paul, use a "rounded", softer sound, and John and Paul also harmonize to create a fuller sound. The combination of Paul and John is a tough sound to beat, for their style of songs. This rounded sound is akin to traditional folk song singing, a tradition the Beatles derived from.

Adam Lambert (and also frequently John Lennon) use a more aggressive style, currently popular, and he has a fuller voice, but without some of the crispness the Beatles have.

In my opinion, the Beatles harmonized sound is better than Lambert's singular, studio recordings are better than live, and the particular song is built better for a lively rounded sound for the Beatles than for Lambert's aggressive style. I'm sure Lambert has songs that the Beatles can't do well.

A rounded sound, in my experience, is created by literally rounding out the back of the throat more. The Beatles' style of crispness is created by dropping the soft palate fold down a bit, so that the sound reaches the nasal cavity and resonate better. An aggressive sound is created by pulling the sides of the throats more (e.g. shouting or screaming at someone pulls down the sides of the throat).

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Here's my two cents worth on this particular video

The Beatles, particularly Paul, use a "rounded", softer sound, and John and Paul also harmonize to create a fuller sound. The combination of Paul and John is a tough sound to beat, for their style of songs. This rounded sound is akin to traditional folk song singing, a tradition the Beatles derived from.

Adam Lambert (and also frequently John Lennon) use a more aggressive style, currently popular, and he has a fuller voice, but without some of the crispness the Beatles have.

In my opinion, the Beatles harmonized sound is better than Lambert's singular, studio recordings are better than live, and the particular song is built better for a lively rounded sound for the Beatles than for Lambert's aggressive style. I'm sure Lambert has songs that the Beatles can't do well.

A rounded sound, in my experience, is created by literally rounding out the back of the throat more. The Beatles' style of crispness is created by dropping the soft palate fold down a bit, so that the sound reaches the nasal cavity and resonate better. An aggressive sound is created by pulling the sides of the throats more (e.g. shouting or screaming at someone pulls down the sides of the throat).

web, we were comparing the beatles to lou gramm from foreigner in this video.

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