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First Voice lesson

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Yo, Stretto.

If C is a whole, positive integer and A < B, then AC < BC. Algebraic logic, it's a thing of beauty. I used to use the postulates of analytic geometry and its advanced cousins to prove Einstein wrong, which offended some people (back in the day of BBS's.)

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a whole positive integer? Never heard it before. In any case it is redundant...

Given real C > 0, if A < B then AC < BC is a property of the real numbers and in general a property of ordered fields.

Anyways, it's a bit too basic to prove Einstein wrong ;) You need to learn a little bit about tensor analysis, differential manifolds, clifford algebras, differential forms, analytic and differential geometry and a bit more... and even then you'll probably just end up proving he was actually right. Even when Einstein thought he was wrong(look up the gravitational constant) he turned out to be right(or as far as we can tell).

If you actually look at the progress of modern physics it's quite beautiful how it all works out(simply because it's such a mess but logic is like the flashlight in the dark).

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Believe it or not, Stretto, I did study those things. My stating algebraic logic and Einstein being wrong in the same post is just a happy circumstance. n-space geometry, riemannian space, single and multiple variable calculus. (In fact, my step-grandfather, the dramatic bass in church choir, was teaching me single variable differential calculus when I was 12. But I digress) Topology, or as I like to call it, set theory on steroids. A nice smattering of linear algebra.

But I'm just an amateur. You can go ahead and be the expert on that stuff.

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  • 3 weeks later...

It all sounds good man, think you found a good coach. This pulling the voice back thing kinda worries me, but then again you say its something that you figured from what she described... did she call it "covering"?

I think I finally found out what she meant by this. I haven't actually asked yet, but that is kind of my style. I give you enough of a chance to show me what you've got, which in turn is possibly enough rope to hang yourself; then I ask questions. Now I can say, "But you said..."

She seems pretty good, and has already taught me to sing more softly and lower the volume. Not to get louder on higher notes etc. In other areas, I think I've been doing this too many years on my own and have developed a sort of style in some areas and it causes conflict (because I'm stubborn). Take "Georgia on my Mind" for example. We have been working on it for 2 weeks. I didn't know the words when we started and when I posted my singing it here. But I had an idea for how I wanted to sing it. I worked on it and came back week 2 knowing the words and feeling the song more. She tries so make suggestions that I don't agree with. I put emphasis in certain areas because I feel the lyrics leading me there. It is how "I" feel the song. She tries to explain blues to me

DON"T explain blues to me. I know blues.

One other thing that I'm soon to question her on is that what I call head voice she calls falsetto.

Anyway, I've gone off track here.:D She's ok. She doesn't know what I already know, so sometimes she says things that I don't 100% agree with. But a new school opened up about 15 or 20 minutes from me that is an actual music school, like a small college type thing. Same price and first lesson free. I have an introductory class scheduled next week. I'll keep going to her though also. I'm still feeling things out.

Now, as to addressing the quote from Felipe and what she may have been talking about. She has said it a few more times and when I added an effect to my vocal for Georgia last week, she said it again which this time, gave me an ah ha moment. I added an effect at one point near the end of the song and lowered my volume singing a line very softly which was also breathy. I did this purposely and it was a feel thing. She commented about my "outward breathing" and connected this instruction with the bringing it back advice again. When we worked at the piano later she mentioned it again this time with some hand gestures.

Since that time I have come across a couple of things in my own studies. One stated something about a feeling of breathing in at the same time you're breathing out. (just a feeling...I know you can't actually do it).

And a similar thing I learned was spoken of in the video below on Appoggio by Franco Tenelli where he explains "drinking" the voice at around 4:00. I think these things are what she is getting at.

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Hmmm? Congratulations on your first lesson and I'm glad it went well for you. As you proceed with your training, make sure you are truly achieving your goals. Two of the goals you have to set for yourself are 1). to learn to bridge the vocal break without constricting or breaking (instability) and 2). to be able to sing in your head resonance without using Falsetto vocal mode. In other words, you need your head resonance singing to sound full and 'boomy' and convincing. If you are not learning to 'bridge and connect', in my opinion, your missing the prime directive and point of singing technique.

A lot of teachers will just spend all their students time milling about in the chest voice and NEVER training bridging and connecting. Why? Because they don't know how to train it, pure and simple. However, the student is the last one to know about that because voice training is also a business and voice teachers need to pay their bills.

I apologize for sounding a bit cynical, I have no reason to believe that your new voice teacher isn't great. My statement is not about her, its just to make sure that you know what your suppose to be achieving in your voice lessons, especially within about 30-90 days. If you are not bridging your registers and starting to sound big and full in your head resonance within approximately (depending on the individual) 30-90 days, then you need to begin asking questions and measuring the answers you get.

If you are practicing and able to sing the workouts she gives you on pitch and some measure of success and she says to you, "oh, your not ready for that...", red flag. If another 45 days goes by and your continue to get better singing in your chest voice, singing HER scales, etc.. and again you ask, 'ok, I want to begin working on singing a G4 in my head voice and not have it sound like a little falsetto girl"... and again she says, "Oh, your still not ready for that... your time will come for that". At that point, your teacher is stringing you along. She doesn't know how to teach you to bridge and connect and the sad thing is, she isn't about to tell you that because she wants you to keep coming to her studio. She knows how to teach you warm-ups, working out in your chest voice, breathing and all kinds of important stuff... but, if your not bridging and connecting within 30-90+ days, your getting diminishing returns on your investment in any series of voice technique training.

Come back to this forum and paste some links for us to hear or feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions. I don't want to sound negative, but it is in my nature to be kind of the "mother hen' for singers, especially people on this forum. I want to protect you and make sure you are not only getting what you think you want, but what you really need.

Make sure you are clear on where you want to be (bridging and connecting) within 90+ days. Assuming you are singing on pitch, have good respiration, support, a healthy tone, etc... If your not bridging and connecting in approximately 30-90+ days, your just just stretching out and not really into the serious stuff ... in my not so humble opinion.

I hope this helps...

Welcome to TMV Forum.

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  • 3 weeks later...

UPDATE:

Ok, it's been about 2 months since starting with these lessons. Last week I found another school a little further away and they offer a free trial lesson so I took a shot. At the end of that lesson I signed up for two more and had my first of those two yesterday. Here is my observation concerning both places.

I like the first place and have learned a few things but something always seemed odd and I was waiting to learn more about how to train my voice rather than how to sing songs. I always found it strange also, when I would walk in and she would say "ok, what have you been working on" did you bring any CD's?"

Right after my trial lesson at the other place I figured it out. I'll get back to this.

First, let me say that the trial lesson was great and the actual first lesson even better. He is a young guy and has a bio with some good education. He also sings opera. He started on posture, stance and relaxation and worked into some exercise to see what my voice was like. He explained breath control and all that stuff I know about already but many of the things he said were good to hear because they were familiar and I knew that he knew what he was talking about. I get none of that from the other teacher. He said he wanted to find my passagio.

Then he whipped out a song. This one caught me off guard..."Amazing Grace." I said I didn't know the words or all of the melody either but he said it didn't matter. I realized in a minute or two he wasn't looking for me to sing the song actually, he was exercising me as well as seeing where my voice goes. He made me do it a second time this time trying to connect the words legato style. Then again as if I were an opera singer and he said to even try to exaggerate it. Then I did it without words, only "ah" sounds. Actually, come to think of it, that is where he made me do it again but with legato throughout connecting the ah's. Long slurred phrases.

This week we worked on great exercises for agility, breath support as well as not running out of air. The scale patterns went up and down and extended into varying configurations. Great stuff. I felt good because I got some good compliments. But any area he didn't like he pointed it out, gave me an idea of how to fix/approach it and we did it again. He sang with me at times. He seems to say I'm a baritone. We did legato stile vowels and then slopped them up and made them really slurry. Again he said don't be afraid to sound silly. We did varrious vowel configurations.

He seems to like the classical and opera stuff which is fine by me. But he also addresses and understands I like blues. He told me he wants to work on two songs. One of his and one of mine. Next time I am to bring in a song of my choice. Meanwhile he had me working on "Beautiful Dreamer" by Stephan Foster. (that is his choice). He gave me the music sheet with lyrics and pointed me to Thomas Hamson (I found him on youtube). Tough song for me on a couple of notes. There is a high part in there with vowels that he has me addressing (he told me about playing with the vowels, and told me how, much like here). He corrected some diction. But the high part of the song in the key he had me singing is at my passagio. That's why he picked it. He seems to want this song as is...not "my" version or altered :D He says that at some point I could probably blues this up. He seems to like my tone and especially on certain notes.

Now back to the other instructor. Now I get it. He is a teacher. She on the other hand is a "coach." That's why she always asks me if I brought a CD. We worked on a song last week (it actually helped) and what she does is say, shorten that word or lengthen this word. Go higher here, softer there. Modulate this or don't modulate that etc. She will tell me if I'm getting too much air into the words and where to pull back etc. Her problem is she doesn't explain the "how." Lucky for me I know a little something so I know what she means. But when she says that on the last word of a phrase I'm singing out and that I need to bring the word "back" like I'm breathing in...who the hell would know what that means or how to do it? I know what she means though. I ended up covering and she liked it. Approval. "You see?" That is why you come to me...I help you sing better!!"

She gives me some good tips here and there but I want what the other guy gives. A strong foundation based on "music" tone, notes and technique.

I'm want to see her less and the other guy more. He is good...I loved it. But scheduling there doesn't match mine and they need to reserve your spot so they want payment in advance and to schedule in clumps. That leaves two problems. I don't have money to lay out for multiple classes (I save my lunch money and pay as I have it :D) and to pre scedule? Not with my crazy schedule at home and work...tough one.

Tommy

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Breath management equals extended kiai.

haha, extended kiai. I do find it easy figuring out all this support and breath management stuff due to the similarities. As far as sound. Actually I practice what I call a silent kiai. The explanation would be a thread of it's own :D But is has something to do with the breath control and the meaning of the kanji that make up the word kiai,

Tommy

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