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another great dave brooks video

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Maybe he can teach well. It sounded like he was taking chest up, whether he actually was or not, the sound effect was that. The only thing that was distracting to me and I'm not sure where the effect came from but his onset for notes in the scale sounded untuned. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose. But, like Tommy says, train how your going to sing.

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Videohere, I dont know... To me it sounds plain wrong (what he tried to demonstrate)... Why do you think its so different?

i'm curious why you say that?

he's big into the cry, but the part that i really liked the most was this particular section:

2:09 to 3:25...."chest" chest" chest" etc..............

some people transition too soon and others too late. so let's say your a d.i.y., you could be doing one of these two things and be wasting a lot of time.

last saturday i had a 30 min. for $30.00 consult with him. he's great and helped me with a few things. he changed his mind about joining the forum.

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yes, but this is just a portion of what you're seeing/hearing.

he's great at crying into the sound, which i hear is really great for guys like me that can easily glue the folds shut way too much. the cry has a way of getting me to phonate lighter but still connected by using more of the edge of the folds and not using excessive pressure.

he had me vocal frying into a cry (curbing?) and then ending with fry. it really felt good to phonate light but connected. i have learned with a big voice like mine, i have to be extra careful not to muscle my way through everything. singing powerfully comes natural to me...

i need more finesse and dynamics.

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I'de like to pipe in, if I may.

Felipe said - Videohere, I dont know... To me it sounds plain wrong (what he tried to demonstrate)... Why do you think its so different?

With Bob reacting,

2:09 to 3:25...."chest" chest" chest" etc.............. some people transition too soon and others too late. so let's say your a d.i.y.,

... In a way - Both of you are right (I'll stay though more on Felipe's side though). On the 4th note (be it an octave G - however vid - is he on the C). I will explain reason and pro's cons.

The 1st 3rd 5th, octave, 3rd, 5th in Frissell's terms shouldn't be attacked Chest too much. Bob - you have been working with Frissell to attach a lighter tone keeping lightness down a phrase.

However from a "generic" coaching, belting the 4th note (i.e. 2:18) means that a person can successfully hit the C/G in a belt tone. He then says.

Transition / Mix.

.. however transition is "WAY" too belty and hence the squeel (What Felipe says). The issue with the vid is that the upward notes are hit incorrectly (and hence why Felipe is saying squeeling). From a Frissel perspective, the upper voice should be used rather than 4th note chest and then transition / mix note.

So you may 1st chest, 3rd chest, 5th chest, octave (mix), octave 3rd head, octave 5th head.

Or Classical 1st Chest, 3rd Chest, 5th Mix (poss chest), octave (mix / head), octave 3rd (head) octave 5th (head) (or strictly classical - ch, ch, ch, hd, hd, hd)

Belty will have you, 1st Chest, 3rd Chest, 5th chest, octave (belty chest), octave 3rd (belty chest to those whom can reach it (not recomended)mix / head), octave 5th (head)

All could be correct ... But what do you want ?

... I'm in the midst of writing about tonal colour based on the passagio and using the ability to manipulate chest / mix / head appropriatly in order to "paint" tonal colours within a phrase. Within the classical circles, I have a tendancy to keep head down a phrase so lightness is kept down a phrase from high D to lower E, where as other songs may require a darker colour through the F into G before a lighter tone is needed.

The ability to use & teach tonal colouring by utilising a mixture of voice throughout a phrase is something that can be taught once a person can use head / chest quite easily (and switch between them) throughout a range and then use blending appropriately. That is IF they are taught how to in the 1st place (which a lot of coaches don't teach).

What experience tells me is that whilst the above creates singers whom can sing very well, I find though, the 1st note of the passagio is usually belted and the 2nd is scooped.

This may open up more Q's, but welcome to discuss.

He talkes about pre G (pre-3:15 - transition) - I was writing something here - but promptly forgotton, so will come back to this (if I get time)

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I dont know, trainning the passagio with this configuration is really weird to me.

passagio, as well as head and chest voice, should have a natural and full emission, at least in the way I am learning:

Some samples of what I mean:

http://www.4shared.com/music/bvRwd3BE/head_vs_chest.html

The emission pattern is somewhat the same, the difference is the use of vowel mods and support. On head I can use less support, and there is much heavier covering (that shade of "u' as you know it). On chest, I have to support like hell and the vowel is much more open. (sorry for the quality of the samples, I am still walking on eggs when doing this)

Although many times what I use to sing is closer to the second sample (chest) than to the first, it was doing the first exercise that I learned how to keep that emission pattern on chest voice.

That cry removes almost all quality of the emission. Please do not understand me wrong, my voice is quite heavy too, this is probably near the top of what my tessitura will develop into (should top at B), and I did use some cry exercises to help changing the coordination BEFORE applying it to scales.

IMO the passagio is not the place to be messing with this kind of thing, maybe its nice to create a shock and force you into forgetting the previous coordination, but if you train it like this, you will have to let go of it later...

Anyways, do take care man, I would focus totaly on what frisell had you doing, and even book some more classes with him. It sounds much more simpler and sane than this.

This squeak is what I know as a midway between falsetto and modal voice, it IS usefull to bridge from one into the other. But passagio should be on full voice, for the sake of simplicity, health and comfort.

GL!

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Someone with a "little" more skill than me :rolleyes::

Note the difference on terminology, he says that its all chest and does not acknowledge the changes of sensations related to the passaggio (probably for him its so easy now that he simply does not need it)... But consider carefully how the emission pattern does not enter into that kind of cry. The point of interest is around 04:30. The whole video is interesting though.

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thanks man, i respect your opinion and i do agree with a lot of what you're saying. in fairness to dave, i think i just plucked out this one video without giving everyone the complete story about the cry.

i wanted to mainly learn about the vocal fry and the crying technique because i was told it's a great way to learn to sing without engaging so much fold.

singing on the edge of the folds and learning to sing with a little lighter engagement, or weight is something i need to improve upon. frisell told me i'd make a good dramatic tenor because my voice is thick and heavy. i was trying to learn to back off the compression and intensity a little.

yes, i'm sticking with frisell's way and will try to get more lessons with him when i can afford it.

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Bob,

Good.

I was going to post this;

IMO the passagio is not the place to be messing with this kind of thing, maybe its nice to create a shock and force you into forgetting the previous coordination, but if you train it like this, you will have to let go of it later...

Anyways, do take care man, I would focus totaly on what frisell had you doing, and even book some more classes with him. It sounds much more simpler and sane than this.

^

|

Fully agree with this.

But you posted afterwards :)

Keep well.

Stewart

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Felipe, perhaps Dave isn't the greatest singer (I haven't heard much from him), but I think that he's sometimes overdoing the cry whereas the singer in your clip is actually also using the cry too, just a very small amount of it so it's barely audible. If you do just a slight cry, what it really is is just you holding back the sound a bit. That's why the cry is called "hold" in CVT. It's not exactly the same as holding back air, but it is a slight compression in your throat and it stops you from becoming shouty. My 5 cents.

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