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joereece
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Hey,

Am I using twang in this clip? (I know it's very low quality, sorry about that!)

https://www.box.com/s/cfb839c2c651d6b39ceb

If it is I think I have been doing this automatically for a while now. I seem to do it naturally to increase volume.

Please forgive my choice of phrase to display this, Lulu's "Well" is where it seems to be most pronounced. It's like my trigger phrase for what I think is twang.

Just listened back to the clip and it doesn't seem as pronounced as I thought it was. I can produce more of it but it seems to go very nasal.

Also I can't seem to bring it into my upper register without strain? If I try sirening up with it I can carry it up but it goes very ugly and it seems to hurt my throat a fair bit so I've only done it twice.

https://www.box.com/s/af1a02b7553517f90295

It just seems like I won't be able to use my upper register+twang in any songs as it wouldn't sound good?

I realise Robs four pillars program actually works on stuff like this so I'm not asking for any freebies I just want to know if I'm going in the right direction and how I can avoid damaging my voice when doing stuff like this?

Thanks very much for reading this and I appreciate any help you can give!

Cheers!

Joe

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that second one actually sounds like 'quack' to me, which is the opposite of falsetto, too much twang. the break on the way up was probably improper diaphragm control and tensing in the neck, there wasnt a break on the way down. robs program will do wonders for you. i just want to make sure you know the difference between falsetto and closure, because you can really get confused if you dont. falsetto is no oscillation in the folds, just the air passing through, like this:

https://www.box.com/s/52f3fa72d73afb6c8dbf

the light sound you want to start with sound almost exactly like falsetto to you in your head. its just light closure, and i bet if you do it you will swear its falsetto. hang on. just make sure to get all the breathy airy stuff out. you should be able to lightly sing this way all through the range with no breaks, then you can make it sound awesome. it sounds like this:

https://www.box.com/s/1adccf5fac8303165488

i feel like if you understand that, then Robs program will turn you into a god. to get that sound into what you want, all you need to do is do the tongue leverage, shape the mouth, and all the other stuff robs clearly tells you how to do. its easy to from that falsetto-y sound to big:

https://www.box.com/s/8a3fd49b2838f191ca54

and it still feels like you are singing in falsetto... youll notice rob uses falsetto as a tool even. (sorry if my sound sucks, i did this first thing in the morning without warming up or anything)

hope this helps... definitely get robs stuff as soon as you can!

(i cant remember how to link stuff...)

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This is all really useful stuff so thanks for recording it all.

The reason it's "quack" on the siren is because atm when I twang in the upper register it's either all or nothing :(

I'm not surprised my diaphragm might be out of whack, I'm a beginner who has real problems with support.

I am slowly working on that though :)

I think I understand the closure bit, I've decided decided to read up more on theory instead of practising as I want a clean slate to start from when I finally get pillars.

Making the light closure sound seems difficult at the moment but I'll keep working on it!

Not at all! The clips are great, really useful thanks!

Any idea why it hurts to twang/quack on the siren?

I'm in between jobs at the moment but it's fairly high on the priority list.

Thanks for your help!

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it hurts because your twanging your vocal chords together so hard... like your pushing your hands together as hard as you can instead of just putting them together... too much muscle. i did the same thing for about two years lol. i tried to explain diaphragm control in a post not too long ago, find it and see if it helps. i feel like this light closure and diaphragm stuff is the hardest to understand and explain, but i hope it will click for you.

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Ahhh makes sense as it definitely feels like that! Although I thought the vocal cords weren't directly affected by twang?

I think I may have found that post thanks!

Thanks, well if it doesn't I can just wait to buy pillars!

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I think you had some twang in there the whole time, during both clips. In the second clip there was a break which can be fixed if you hold your breath a bit more when you approach your passagio and just by more practise.

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Thanks jonpall, will definitely try out those ideas.

I do have one question about the larynx/constrictors. I know that twang tends to raise the larynx and I have nothing against a high larynx configuration.

I'm interested to know how you can tell if the constrictors are engaging and what exercises you can do to combat that.

Some people have suggested the mum and gug exercises but I'm not trying to stop a raised larynx, simply the constrictions that can sometimes arise.

Thanks for your help.

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you can tell the constrictors are engaging if you break when traversing the passagio, or if you break when getting softer or louder. my suggestion is dont try to combat it. what i mean is, jumping from one problem to the next is difficult and frustrating. just make sure you have the foundation and work from there. when you get pillars, its what the workflow does. instead of jumping from one thing to another, you get a set path that will lead you exactly where you want to go, and if you follow it correctly you dont have to worry about getting rid of a problem because it wont be there. so yea... make some lemonade and get that money for pillars! lol

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Wow workflow sounds amazing! I think that's what most people struggle with when learning to sing, way too many directions to take!

Very much looking forward to pillars now haha!

Thanks again for the info!

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Well I've read a number of posts on here including some really helpful ones from Steven Fraser which all discuss the raised/lowered larynx argument.

My understanding is that if you raise your larynx (voluntarily or otherwise) without engaging any constrictors then it's perfectly healthy. The problem seems to occur when you haven't found a way to sing on a raised larynx without first disengaging the constrictors/tension that appear to almost be coupled with the raising of the larynx in beginner singers

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you can tell the constrictors are engaging if you break when traversing the passagio, or if you break when getting softer or louder. my suggestion is dont try to combat it. what i mean is, jumping from one problem to the next is difficult and frustrating. just make sure you have the foundation and work from there. when you get pillars, its what the workflow does. instead of jumping from one thing to another, you get a set path that will lead you exactly where you want to go, and if you follow it correctly you dont have to worry about getting rid of a problem because it wont be there. so yea... make some lemonade and get that money for pillars! lol

Well done Jason, I think you have guided this person well. In particular I want to jump in here and reiterate how cool the work flows are in "The Four Pillars of Singing 2.0". To be honest, there is a lot of cool and new ideas in "Pillars", but if I had to name 1 thing that I think is really the most innovative and helpful for clients, it is the introduction of training work flows. I'm very proud of this innovation and love it... Jason hit right on the head... I am over simplifying, but here is a big part of what the TVS Methodology is doing that is helping people to get such fast results.

At TVS we train high performance phonations. We are interested in working with you to build the strength and coordination you need to bridge and connect, or sing just about anything you want to sing with incredible range and power. One way we go about training this is we take the sum total of all the physiological and acoustic components of that high performance phonation and call it your "Phonation Package". The TVS Phonation Package is comprised of physiological and acoustic components that are then drilled/trained into sequential work flows, "step 1, step 2, step 3, and so on...".

When you break down each component of your singing voice and you then train them with sequential work flows, you are building incredible muscle memory and strength, IN THE LEAST AMOUNT OF TIME. The TVS work flows are not only are proving to amazingly effective, they are proving to be amazingly efficient. With effectiveness, comes efficiency. To Jason's point, this means you are not wasting your time training the wrong things at the wrong time, or just flat out, the wrong things. You don't bounce around on your training, you have a map to follow... the work flows are the "code" to building a high performance phonation.

In fact the TVS Work Flows concept are so interesting to the industry right now that this is what I am going to give my presentation on at the 42st Annual Voice Foundation Symposium in Philadelphia in June. I have been invited to do a workshop at this event and Work Flows are what I am going to speak about in front of an audience of leading vocal research professionals and teachers. Add to that, "The Four Pillars of Singing 2.0" has also been totally proofed and consulted on by our own TMV Forum champion and my mentor, Steve Fraser. Its really great and I look forward to you becoming a client and helping you.

Here is a copy of my "Abstract", which is in the program notes:

TITLE:

The Vocalist Studio – A New Method of Using Sequential Work Flows, Onsets and Sirens for Training High Performance Singing Voices.

AUTHOR:

Robert Lunte

AFFILIATION INFORMATION:

Associate Member

CATEGORY:

Vocal Pedagogy

TYPE OF PRESENTATION:

Workshop

In this workshop, Robert Lunte will demonstrate a new approach to training singers that involves the calibration of the physiological and acoustic singing components required for great singing, into organized ‘packages’ and ‘sets’, groupings of technique details.

These grouped physiological and acoustic components are further organized into sequential work flows during the practice of original TVS vocalise to achieve an extremely calibrated and coordinated, high performance phonation that is applied to the art of singing. By training onsets and sirens with sequential work flows, the shortest path to building extraordinary muscle memory and auditory imagery skills needed for singing are developed in the shortest period of time.

Robert Lunte is the owner founder of the The Vocalist Studio (TVS), an internationally recognized voice training school for extreme singing vocal techniques and advanced vocal instruction. Robert is also the author and producer of the critically acclaimed vocal instruction training system, “The Four Pillars of Singing 2.0”.

Robert is also the founder of The Modern Vocalist World.com, the #1 online resource for vocal education and networking on the internet.

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Hi Rob,

Thanks for taking the time to respond! Really appreciate that.

I'm digging up more info on pillars and it seems that I missed a lot of great features haha. Some really interesting stuff!

You're obviously doing something right if you're presenting info at the AVF Symposium. Good luck for June!

I read somewhere that pillars 2.0 was updated with even more cutting edge technical info which I find really interesting so that's another plus.

I just have 2 questions that I have been thinking about quite a lot recently. I know I've been asking a lot so please forgive me!

1. I know that a large proportion of people who use pillars tend to focus on rock and similar styles. I'm quite interested in musical theatre and pop. I know this question has probably been asked before but...once I learn the techniques is it easy to throttle it back a bit? It's just that you see all these people who can "belt" out a huge song yet when it comes to a gentler song their voice just can't seem to manage it? I don't mean to disrespect pillars at all as I've heard the results and still fully intend to buy it in the future.

2. I've never really felt that my falsetto is relaxed and easy to sing in. My voice seems to tighten even though people say that falsetto is very easy to use. My falsetto almost feels similar to pulling chest most of the time apart from it's in my upper register. (It's not the exact same just the same feeling of tension/push) I'm just worried that if falsetto and adducted head voice are in the same place would this affect my progress?

Would pillars be able to do anything for that?

I realise the second question is probably too difficult to answer without diagnostics and so on so no problem if you can't answer it.

I really appreciate all the info this board has provided me with!

Thanks very much,

Joe

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Hi Joe:

1). TVF - The Voice Foundation - www.voicefoundation.org

2). Your question about TVS & Rock genre is a question I get every day from students of singing technique all over the world and, no offense, it gets very tiresome. I am not teaching, "ROCK STYLE SINGING STYLE LESSONS"... Nobody writes a book and produces 16GB of training content based on, "Rock style singing style lessons". I REALLY need to record myself singing some John Denver, Frank Sinatra and a whole bunch of country songs so people will get this?!

I am teaching techniques that can be applied to any genre of music. In my case, people get confused because of my personal interest in Rock and my personal disposition I suppose is more "rock dude". I get that, its perfectly fine... but don't let my personal disposition or my personal choice to sing rock as an artist confuse the message. I have clients from every genre'. I have more clients from theater and pop than I do from rock. The reason TVS is attractive to rockers is because rockers need range and they engage in "extreme singing" phonations, arguably more than some other genre's of singing. Because TVS tackles the hard stuff, they come to TVS. But its really about how you apply the techniques. Of course you can throttle back and sing light...

3). What your describing regarding your Falsetto is totally common. Yes, Falsetto should be very open and free, for about 70% of me, it is... there are some men that have to work on learning how to do it though... which is very strange to me, but it doesn't change the fact that when some men try to sing Falsetto, which should be VERY intuitive, they struggle with it. Im telling you, it is 80% psychosis. Your inability to sing an intuitive Falsetto is mostly in your head. You have taught yourself to avoid Falsetto. Your body constricts when you give it a command to sing Falsetto, but it does not have to.

Will TVS & "Pillars" fix that? Of course! Joe, there are VERY few issues with your voice I do not understand how to trouble-shoot and fix. There probably is no phonation I have not heard before that I don't understand what the issue is. I do this every day, 30 hours a week, for 10 years. When you consider all the vocal problems I might be faced with, singing in your falsetto most certainly is not even on the radar. Its just a matter of showing you the proper techniques to fix it. It will take about 15-45 minutes and the issue will be gone.

I hope you will forget the notion that I am teaching, "Rock Style Singing Style Rock Style Lessons" and stop worrying about your Falsetto note issue to some extent, its not a big deal.... invest in a copy of "Pillars" and lets get to work training technique. These concerns seem big to you, I know... but the reality is, ... the first one regarding style vs technique is just silly and the second one is just not a big deal at all and we can fix in 10 minutes over Skype. C;mon, lets get started...

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Hey Joe,

I have been following this thread from the beginning and after Robert's input i had to jump in.I have only just decided to learn singing after 30 odd of years of being scared to.I searched the web and purchased another programme,which i wont name,i was very dissapointed.So back searching again and i came across Pillars.After my previous purchase i was a bit reluctent to spend more money but after a couple of emails to and from Robert i decided to take the plunge.I have read the book,watched the vids and i can tell you it is well worth the money.Ihave started my training this week and am saving same cash so i can get some skype lessons wit Robert.Go on get it i know you wont be dissapointed.

Cheers

Paul

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I would suggest that people go to Lunte's youtube channel to see vids of his students singing in styles of everything from heavy metal, to theatrical/musical, to country, to torch songs ala Barbara Streisand.

The techniques are their for the raucous rock sound. But Lunte's own compositions are art rock sung in a legit sounding voice. The system works for any style of singing.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Ok. So there are different types of twang. Nasal twang which should sound nasally which is great for easing notes in the higher register. Once you've mastered it you can you can ease of the nasality a bit to soften it. And there is oral twang which can be used as a twang belt mix. The best way to get the placement is to do it on a nya sound. Screw up your face and let your cheeks raise. Then make the nya sound like a witch. It's not supposed to sound nice. When you get it right you'll know because it will sound loud to your ears even a bit uncomfortable to listen too. You shouldn't feel any strain at all when doing twang. If you do you are doing it incorrectly. Go back to basics and start again. I'm gonna be posting a video on this in a couple of weeks so keep a look out.

Twang is one of the greatest techniques you can learn. It takes all the strain out of high notes and is vital for crossing breaks. Musical theatre singers use it all the time.

http://www.singersadvice.com

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Is this twang that I'm feeling?

Is this the twang that I've been looking for?

Is this twang, or am I dreaming?

'Cause you've really got a hold on me ....

yes, I have butchered another song, making no apologies to David Coverdale ....

However, in all seriousness, sort of, twang, it does a body good.

Everybody have fun tonight

Everybody twang chung tonight.

One of my favorite authors was Mark Twang.

I am descended from the Twang Dynasty.

Keep trying, you'll get the twang of it. (come on now, that was a good one. (he says, ducking flying vegetables.))

:D

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May I join in ?,

Sarah, "Nasal twang which should sound nasally which is great for easing notes in the higher register."

Rob, "There is no such thing as 'nasal twang'. People often confuse nasality with twang and its not the same thing."

I'm not going to go into Nasality, m, n, ng's (and all the other stuff, constriction ... etc) - You both know that.

But you are in a sense both right (however I must disagree with Sarah's usage), but for different reasons.

Forced Nasality is known as Nasal twang, it's usually down to constriction in the pharynx (naso, oro and/or laryngo), so tension in the pharynx being the cause of forced vibrations in the nose (known as Nasal twang).

so .. Robert - you fully understand Nasality and forced, thus likely see forced nasality as a bad thing (thus don't need to have the term in your training tool box, or you know it termed as forced nasality), where as Sarah sees it as a tool (rather than a constriction). Reason I say this is;

Sarah went on to say, "Once you've mastered it you can you can ease of the nasality a bit to soften it." , so it's likely she understands it but uses it (i.e. use of Nasality in the R&B world) as tool (so Sarah do you "train" this into students? (I only say this because isn't forced nasality a bad thing and i don't know it used for easing notes in the higher register ?).

.. The thing here is the student, likely shouldn't have it in the first place and if it was detected in training, then corrective procedures should have been done to remove the constriction;

. New tonal model

. relaxation, head rolls, yah, yah .. etc

. contrast of nasal twangy tone vs balanced tone

So if I hear forced, cul de sac or hypo, then it's down to see what the constriction is.

Hence some of the questions.

Then we all know epiglottic twang (epiglottic funnel .. etc) which is so prevalantly talk about in the forums.

Thoughts ?

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