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Do some methods teach vocalizing chest and head voice appart?

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Ivenado
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I was wondering if there is a method/methods that do some of their vocalises using mainly the TA or the CT muscle but appart. I think that on some posts there was something in training the 2 registers appart with Frisell but I am not shure.

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depends on what you call chest and head. on classical trainning, no. the shift from one to the other is supposed to happen slowly and gradually, so that no break happens and the voice is effectivelly one. Thus chest and head are only descriptors to sensations.

Falsetto is used in the trainning to help coordinate the formants. as well as full modal voice. The main reference to guide the coordination is the sensation of resonance, or placement.

And yet, what Ive read from Frisell differs only on terminology and his approach.

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I mean taking the TA muscle as the predominant one to its maximum and to the samething with the CT muscle. As an exemple ( I don't know if it is a good one because I am a beginner), you take the ratio of contraction from TA 100%- CT 0% to TA 51% - CT 49%, to make shure that you mainly work in the range of the TA muscle and do the samething with the CT muscle. Probably it ain't got no sense but I am just curious.

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No. Never using muscular relationship.

But we do train chest coordination above the passagio and head bellow it. This coordination involves many things, but not the larynx muscles. What happens there is the result of the other efforts and is indirect, from the point of view of technical actions of course.

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To better understand. On the passagio, it should be very difficult to distinguish head from chest. And even though the transition is gradual, the exact point where head begins is defined from the predominance of covering and can only be precisely given by the singer, as it is a sensation, not an action.

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OK because since all vocalises use the chest voice trough passagio to the head voice, I tought that you could split the training in 2 phases like in some sports. I know that singing is different than sports but I tought that because the vocal cords are muscles ( I don't know if it's a slow or a fast twich muscle) it could have similar training kind of.

i appreciate having an answer for my question

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Ivenado, look at it this way:

The larynx is a VERY complex mechanism, the muscles you are refereing to, are two of the most important to control pitch, as they are oppositors and control tension AND thickness of the folds, but they are not the only ones there.

When producing sound, the larynx job is not to just make any sound on a given pitch, when we sing, we need the pitch to be constant, we need a lot of sound pressure (much more than on the spoken voice), we need certain qualities to make it pleasant to listen to and we must not damage the folds.

As the pitch raises, the ballance of these two muscles MUST change. On chest both CT and TA contracts as the pitch rises, on head, both CT and TA contracts as the pitch rises. The ratio is different on each register. But they are BOTH active, even on falsetto.

But this ballance is extremely complex, besides pitch, that we usually divide into discrete steps, we have also dynamic range, and the ballance of these muscles must reajust at EVERY change of air pressure (and this is why support is so important). Any variation of subglotic pressure will cause the pitch to shift if the larynx does not reajust. Any variation on the postive pressure ABOVE the folds will also force them to reajust.

Its very important that you understand that all these actions, inside your brain, are simply the action of speaking or singing, all linked together. Thus, you must practice in order to achieve coordination so that the larynx can do its job at the most demanding situations and using the sensations and EXTERNAL sound results as reference.

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Ivenado - The goals of almost all vocal training programs is to train these two muscles, and maybe a couple dozen other muscles to work together in a coordinated effort. What we're usually trying to do with these two muscles in particular is to train them to work together, automatically changing the ratio's of them so that the "head" voice sounds like "chest". This training is pretty much indirect though, by focusing on reasonances. The optimum reasonances balance the superglotal pressure with the subglotil pressure - providing a cussioning effect - so that the folds fibrate more freely and easily.

If you want to train CT only, sing in falsetto. But singing CT only will never develop the "single" register of blending chest and head together. You might be able to improve your ability to sing contra tenor music though.

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Yes and I think that for the pitches there is 5 or 6 muscles involve directly in the making of the sound. I didn't mean TA or CT only but one or the other beeing predominant and I am talking about 1 or 2 exercices amongst the others.

The way I see it is from low to the passagio the TA contract more than the CT and pass it will be the contrary. This is approximatively because it is primary a sensation.

But I understand because there is no point of doing that.

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Frisel does focus on falsetto - and bringing it down into lower pitches. Starting with CT dominance and slowly bringing in TA as you go lower. Although, in his book, he never really gets into the whole CT / TA thing at all. This is a "top down" approach. The program makes sense since it is more difficult to to this than starting low and thinning your folds as you go up, which is the typical way. I can't really comment on it too much because I learned the other way.

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i learned a lot from frisell, but his method takes time and patience.

i have to say something that a lot of folks may not agree with, and i can understand why they would not.

it is my belief as a singer (not a voice teacher) that once you have learned how to minimize tension, and really learned to divert this tension away from the throat, the jaw, and most of all the tongue....then and only then, are you are in a better place to begin to really lean into the voice, to really work the voice hard, harder than you might think you have to, so that you can basically sing various levels of mix..light mix, heavy mix, all the way up to serious strong mix.

frisell exercises (in time) cause you to feel like your head voice has developed to such a degree that your chest voice is right on the other side...

now, what do i mean by that?...lol!!!

that you can take your head voice and lean into it and pierce into your chest voice by purposely employing a technique he taught me called "piccolo martello." you lean into the voice, sort of like a fast messa di voce in an attempt to make the head voice yield to the chest voice with a combination of support, increased breath pressure and greater fold compression.

then once you've united the two voices, you practise holding on to the connection, either thinly or thickly.

you have to get to point where the head voice musculature is sufficiently strong and developed enough that it begins to instigate the chest voice musculature to join up with it but from a top down approach. you're basically dropping down into chest voice rather than thinning into head voice.

this works great for me, but it's certainly not for everyone. and if you are not able to divert tension and you start straining and pushing for this development you're headed for trouble.

while i'm no expert, i believe a lot of beginner folks out there, don't really realize just how hard you can work the voice once you've figured out how to do it correctly.

there seems to be a fear of working the voice......of really leaning in to the "connected" voice.

that fear can stop you from developing further.

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Video, indeed. But how safe is it for beginners to employ this kind of energy without assistance? Without help, fear is quite wise in my opinion.

I agree 100% that the physical effort is huge and that its really hard for someone beginning figure that to achieve a certain coordination so much pressure is needed.

Specially low dynamic notes above the passagio. And its the game changer when working head voice.

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Video: That is super interesting to me, because I get the feeling that is exactly what my teacher was trying to explain to me, but I didn't quite get it at first. Probably why I made my other post. ;) The way you wrote it really puts in perspective for me though.

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felipe you're 1000% right.

it is more advanced, and is best done under the supervision of a teacher. but i think it's time to just let folks realize that it does move in that direction depending on your goals, genres, and desires.

i really think there are folks out there (dare i say even teachers out there) who don't know this and they think they can get away singing either without head voice musculature involved or the more common assumption, without any chest voice musculature involved.

it almost analogous to a person that sets out to lift weights for a better body, but never increases the resistance, and wonders why they never developed a physique.

or the singer that plateaus at g4, and never realizes there's work to be done to get another lousy 1/2 note added to their range.

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it is my belief as a singer (not a voice teacher) that once you have learned how to minimize tension, and really learned to divert this tension away from the throat, the jaw, and most of all the tongue....then and only then, are you are in a better place to begin to really lean into the voice, to really work the voice hard, harder than you might think you have to, so that you can basically sing various levels of mix..light mix, heavy mix, all the way up to serious strong mix.

I have one question about the open troat. I saw on a singing website that the open troat is provide by all the singing apparatus but mainly by the falses cords ( I didn't know that those were the ones that constrict when you are in a state of panic or would close when drowning).

Suppositely, to keep it wide open you need to add tension. So is tension good or not? and a good way to see if it is open ; you put one finger in each ear, you breath trough your mouth till you won't be able to hear you respiration.

I don't know if that makes sense?

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that's something i've never heard about. i really don't concern myself with falsetto these days. i'd rather have a solid, connected, head voice.

singing cannot occur with some degree of tension. but there's good tension and bad tension. bad tension constricts and contorts the muscles that need to stay relaxed, which makes your larynx overwork.

if the subject in screaming, growling, fry singing, i'm not the guy to ask.

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Some teachers use the open troat approach like Ken Templin. So what would be the particularities of the open troat ? It seems that only few methods talk about it but not with concrete explanations. I am just trying to understand the term and what means open?

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CVT also advocates an "open throat". I think what they are after is making sure the reasonant spaces are open enough to reasonate the formants of whatever vowel you are singing. For people trying to expand range, it is natural at first to "squeeze" the higher notes out, using constrictors and creating excess tension and possibly damage. But if the spaces are open to reasonate properly, it creates that "back pressure" which gives a cusioning effect, allowing the folds to vibrate more freely.

And sure, you will feel tension in those muscles that are keeping your throat open. I remember how that felt - you are using muscles that aren't used to forming the throat like that, and it gets tiring after a while. But that's not bad tension. You are releiving tension in the many smaller muscles below which is important. And, after months of practice it becomes 2nd nature for these muscles to keep the throat open.

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Thank geno for the explanation. From one post if I remember you couldn't sing up to Bb4 and now you can phonate up to C6.

How long did it take you to get a half tone from the open troat technique and briefly what was the progression from then till now?

Are you suppose to hum as high you phonate or there is a difference?

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an open throat allows the sound to come up unhampered and unimpeded by tension and tongue blockage. when the tongue isn't in the way, it's free to help shape vowel sounds which ride on the unimpeded air. also, this technique raises the soft palate.

it's a technique but it's also a great way to be singing regardless of technique.

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Ivenado - yes that's true. I didn't know how to access my head voice very well and could push chest up to Bb4 (with strain). I started using the KTVA video program and gained got up to G5 in about 4 weeks. I sing up to C6 every day now, and I am still working on my range between C5 and C6, as I am not as agile up there as I want to be.

I've heard humming is good to do as it is one of the semi occluded phonations. I never do that one - instead I do the lip rolls and tamplin's "ng" tongue exercises every day. I do these up to or close to C6, so I wouldn't think there would be any restriction on humming either. These semi occludeds are part of my warm up, and I'm not trying to go as high as I can, so if I go up to Bb5 or C6, that's fine - they're just warm ups.

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Thank you for the reply.

Do you have any exercices that makes you sense or feel if you have an open troat ?

yes, a very simple one. simply start to make a yawn, don't do the whole "i'm so tired" yawn, lol, just shoot for the beginning of a relaxed yawn, no tension, tongue resting behind the back of the bottom teeth.

slowly....did you feel the larynx descend, the soft palate rise, and did you feel a sense of openness particularly in the back of the throat? you don't want to open your mouth too tall, just enough to feel the openness. in fact, you don't need to be very open at all in the front of the mouth to still get the sense of an open throat.

now hold the configuration of the yawn....don't force the larynx down, stay nice and relaxed, just hold the configuration of the yawn for a minute or so. this exercise helps to teach the larynx to behave (over time). breathe normal through the nose (not the mouth). do this exercise for 5 minutes or so each day.

it helped me to teach my body to configure to this desirable "set-up" for singing automatically.

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Thank you both

geno- 4 weeks, that's very fast and amazing, congratulation. I wish I could do the samething but I guess it depends on a lots of things. I don't think that I will ever get there but I will keep on dreaming.

videohere- I will start working on your exercices starting tomorrow.

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