Administrator Robert Lunte Posted June 9, 2012 Administrator Share Posted June 9, 2012 .... question for you guys... if you train to keep your chesty configuration higher as we are discussing... how do you prevent the constrictors from engaging? What is the drill? onset, work flows... you did to get this sound going? Im interested to know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Robert - I don't know exactly, but here's my current understanding: If we can keep the folds vibrating in the same complex manner as in Chest, ie - producing the same complex wave form signature as in chest, we can produce those same harmonic strengths in head, and it will sound exactly like chest. Reasonance is another thing, but I'm talking about producing the wave form at the source (the folds), so that the H1, H2, H3, etc. relative strengths (amplitudes) are maintained. If we can maintain that complex harmonic signature, at the source, we're half way there. How I do that is to keep TA engaged as much as possible while it yeilds control over to CT, and then maintain A LOT of support to keep the folds vibrating with basically the same depth. The trick is that very gradual release of TA, as opposed to a sudden drop in TA intensity. That helps through the passagio up to maybe C5. Of course the higher you go, the less deep the folds vibration, so the Harmonics start to drop in intensity and that's where reasanance adjustments play a bigger role - to amplify the diminishing harmonics. Of course the whole vowel modification and reasonant tracking thing that needs to occur in the passagio has to also be done correctly and simultaneously to support this gradual reduction of TA. You need to maintain that super glottic air pressure. If those reasonances are not done right, forget it. Your constrictors will do some wild things and your folds will take the brunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Aww come on geno... thats to much technical vocal mumbo jumbo even for my taste. Just give us à simple vocal sample of how you do it! It would be so cool to hear that! else we will just get into the regular "calibration of the ta muscle with CT in complete harmony over the digastric xy formula times the supportvalue of the anchored torso in conjunction with the powered diabreathing vocalterminology orgasm" No new user Will know what the (*auto edit*) we are talking about hehe Il soon record an example of my approach would rock if you could do the same:) Yeah Robert thats me,thanks for the kind words:) ive been working on this more seriously the last 3 months and so cant say it's perfect yet, but adding this to My normal technique wich is basicly the liftup pullback gives my voice so much freedom in the passagio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 nice job jens. i just wanted to know do you like lou gramm's voice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Yeah i think his voice is great :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Jens - i thought you liked all that technical mumbo jumbo? I've got to learn how to use Box.net for streaming music - I guess I'm getting too old to learn simple things. So here are spots on my soundclick page where I'm singing in a "chesty" head voice. A4 in chest and sliding up to E5 - Go directly to 1:26 in this song: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10389337 And - starting on B4 up to E5 and then G#5 - Go directly to 3:48 in this song: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10370969 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielformica Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hey robert I like how you asked what some of us are doing..it shows humbleness..This post is for everyone..I can tell you that if you take a scale, octave or five tone whatever.. and dont get to loud as you go up try to keep the same volume, you can keep the constrictors from getting to involved simply because, here we go everyone im gonna say it loud and proud again singing is PITCH, VOWEL AND INTENSITY. So in other words if you sing and ah softly on a high c well you will be heady but if you sing it loudly you will be chesty...now here is the fun and challenging part sing the same vowel not to soft and not to loud BINGO. Its not easy but if you put the work in, guess what? come on guess? thats right no more questions/worries. Hey guys I wouldnt be posting if i didnt go threw it. I honestly wanna help you guys..I know it sounds simple but this is what the old timers and your favorite singers do. Your favorite singers 9 times out of 10 never took lessons. Just coaching.. Your favorite singers just try and sound good.. So that goes back up to my post.. If they get to heady they sound wimpy if they get to shouty they sound ugly so they get it just right.. Thanks guys hope this helps daniel www.danielformicavocalstudio.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Aww come on geno... else we will just get into the regular "calibration of the ta muscle with CT in complete harmony over the digastric xy formula times the supportvalue of the anchored torso in conjunction with the powered diabreathing vocalterminology orgasm" Aboslutely priceless. If I had written that, I would have been seen as snot and admonished, perhaps censured, maybe even banned. So, I must live vicariously through you. But I forgot you were normal height and I have to kind of squat down to fit. :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 well thats the reason ronws you have 52 reputationpoints and i have 13 even though ive been a member longer Geno great examples! yes i love techtalk, i even dream about it at night but sometimes it's alot better to keep it simple and get vocalclips specialy when your as secure in the technique as you are. could you perhaps record a simple take on how you setup your voice for those sounds(specialy in the passagio C4-C5) I would be very intrested in hearing how youd do it outside of a song more in a practice manner :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 Jens - Hillarious comeback Ha Ha!! I'm just kidding - I know you like the tech talk too. Yes - I get carried away with the tecnical talk and it is better to keep it simple for sure. It's such a complex thing though and it's hard to give simple explanations sometimes. Plus - I was answering Robert so I thought I would try to impress him with my vast technical knowledge(lol) :/ i would love to post some practice clips - been thinking about that for a while. i need help in dealing with clips on the internet. I've got a box.net account, but don't know how to upload an audio clip for streaming only. I don't want people downloading my silly clips. If I can get that figured out it I could do small clips which would be better. Tomorrow I'm travelling to chicago for a few days so it may take some time before I could do this. Do you know how to do the box.net thing? I see you do the youtube thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 And I didn't mean offense to any one with technical talk. I am guilty of it, too. We sometimes end up in a semantic dogpile. Jens, I have 52 points because I buy them in bulk at Walmart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrathion Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 To answer your question about constriction Robert, I find that it's far more damaging to a voice to blast it then to overcompress. Most beginners to even professional singers haven't even fully tapped into what overcompression is. There's good and bad constriction. The kind of squeeze you need to develop might be confused with something bad, but it's essential to build good closure. Remember that Pavarotti himself said that at first the sound gets sacrifised and that he got cyanide (red-purple) in the face during his first half year of training trying to build the strenght to hold that squeeze. He also mentioned how most singers shy away from doing these kind of exercises out of fear of damaging their voices, and as such never build the security in the notes they need. It's something one should be careful about, but at the same time it's an essential building block to fully diging into your voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielformica Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Remember though pavarotti sang classical not rock n roll. Singing open is a must in rock n roll. You keep that closed quotient but not as much or as forced as the classical side. P.s listen to tito schipa vs gigli he's very opened and and not as narrow and classical sounding and he got beat up by the classical critics for that. daniel WWW.danielformicavocalstudio.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 geno, those clips would be great. when i first joined the forum, i remember being an advocate of training the chest voice to go up high. seems like the forum is leaning more in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted June 10, 2012 Administrator Share Posted June 10, 2012 NO BOB, I WOULD NOT WANT to send a message out to the readers of this forum that "we" as a community are leaning more toward the direction of bridging late and endorsing shallow placements. To those of you that are just reading and not participating in this, you need to know, these guys are very experienced in vocal technique. Do NOT begin your training experience trying to bridge late and pull chest... for 998 people out of 1000, especially beginners..... your just going to produce a constricted, chokey mess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted June 10, 2012 Administrator Share Posted June 10, 2012 Jens - i thought you liked all that technical mumbo jumbo? I've got to learn how to use Box.net for streaming music - I guess I'm getting too old to learn simple things. So here are spots on my soundclick page where I'm singing in a "chesty" head voice. A4 in chest and sliding up to E5 - Go directly to 1:26 in this song: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10389337 And - starting on B4 up to E5 and then G#5 - Go directly to 3:48 in this song: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=10370969 Nice Geno... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielformica Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Am I invisible? just checking daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted June 10, 2012 Administrator Share Posted June 10, 2012 Ok, I'll "man-up".... Here are my 'early bridge' vs 'later bridge' samples... https://thevocaliststudio.box.com/shared/static/faba140689903ab3c6f6.wma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrathion Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Remember though pavarotti sang classical not rock n roll. Singing open is a must in rock n roll. You keep that closed quotient but not as much or as forced as the classical side. P.s listen to tito schipa vs gigli he's very opened and and not as narrow and classical sounding and he got beat up by the classical critics for that. daniel WWW.danielformicavocalstudio.com hello Daniel ;> In respond to what you have to say, there are some CRITICAL distinctions that need to be drawn. Firstoff, good closure and vocal depth. Regardless of the style of music you are singing, there's no way around this part. Especially if you're going to sing using alot of air pressure, you NEED to create that resistance. Second distinction is the TYPE of voice you are. Judging from what I hear from you Daniel you're a light tenor voice (leggerio or lyric at best). If I try to approach the A vowel going up in a same way as you in your clip, it's going to imbalance my voice, where you can get away with it. Depending how one's vocal tract is, where your opening lies, you can get away with varrying degrees of opening, provided you always pair this with good closure. That's why a teacher always needs to be very careful just throwing out there that it's ok for anyone to just sing like one's own voice, because other students might need a slightly more different approach. Don't confuse vowel modification with darkening though. It's mainly establishing a good pocket for resonance track so you can keep going in a very efficient way. It's a useful narrowing, even in rock or gospel. Look under for two clips of a gospel singer and a rock singer who are both extremly good and notice how they keep their vowels up high narrowed and in the pocket. In all of this, keep in mind that even bigger voices CAN get away interpretative with using more open vowels to a certain range. However if they are not doing it conciously and that's how they approach their voice all the time, they are going to find a quick ticket to vocal problems. That's why you'll hear for example Del Monaco doing open A's even around G4 at times, cse the song calls for it, but he'll quickly revert back to making everything more narrow afterwards to not get in trouble per the demand of the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrathion Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 NO BOB, I WOULD NOT WANT to send a message out to the readers of this forum that "we" as a community are leaning more toward the direction of bridging late and endorsing shallow placements. To those of you that are just reading and not participating in this, you need to know, these guys are very experienced in vocal technique. Do NOT begin your training experience trying to bridge late and pull chest... for 998 people out of 1000, especially beginners..... your just going to produce a constricted, chokey mess... Bob was obviously refering to the more advanced singers out there. Starting singers should typically be trained top down headvoice, incorporating more pharyngeal gradually and then learning to add more chest. This is a lenghty process ;> By no means is Bob argueing the open AH as you go higher to get more chest ^^ It's allowing yourself to take more and more weight in your voice by engaging more vertical depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrathion Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 In response to your clips Robert. Pulling chest in it's derogative meaning, is having an imbalanced coordination of head and chest. By this definition, yes all your chest examples sounded imbalanced to me. Does that mean that you can't take more chest up there though? Not at all, but it needs to be properly balanced. Somewhere in the middle of your clip in one of your more efficient coordination slides, you actually took a bit more chest up then the other clips, and to me it sounded way more balanced. Students need to build strenght and carefully integrate more and more chest voice. This chest you're holding onto as a safety net, and you need to stay grounded at all times to your support. If you're gonna lose adduction or lose support which causes the diaphram to send a rush of air to your cords, you're gonna put yourself in trouble. About the efficiency and being tired: Singing with chest like that does require ALOT more stamina then what you're demonstrating. Frankly I'm swetting ALOT when I'm really digging into my voice, cse it simply takes a lot of effort to keep everything free. However as days and years go by, you find yourself being able to sustain more and more in a healthy way. Thank you for chiming in on this discussion Robert! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 Daniel i dont agree, ive always considered classical singers more open. For instance a classical Singer almost always sings on open vowels almost no consonants ect. Rock singers in My mind focused more on closed sounds specialy heavy rock singers like dio, jorn lande and so on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I did want to be a smart aleck, though. In the comment about Pavarotti, that should be cyanotic, not cyanide. Shut up ron ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted June 10, 2012 Administrator Share Posted June 10, 2012 Am I invisible? just checking daniel No Daniel, but the more space you travel through, the faster time will pass for others and will slow down for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted June 10, 2012 Administrator Share Posted June 10, 2012 In response to your clips Robert. Pulling chest in it's derogative meaning, is having an imbalanced coordination of head and chest. By this definition, yes all your chest examples sounded imbalanced to me. Does that mean that you can't take more chest up there though? Not at all, but it needs to be properly balanced. Somewhere in the middle of your clip in one of your more efficient coordination slides, you actually took a bit more chest up then the other clips, and to me it sounded way more balanced. Students need to build strenght and carefully integrate more and more chest voice. This chest you're holding onto as a safety net, and you need to stay grounded at all times to your support. If you're gonna lose adduction or lose support which causes the diaphram to send a rush of air to your cords, you're gonna put yourself in trouble. About the efficiency and being tired: Singing with chest like that does require ALOT more stamina then what you're demonstrating. Frankly I'm swetting ALOT when I'm really digging into my voice, cse it simply takes a lot of effort to keep everything free. However as days and years go by, you find yourself being able to sustain more and more in a healthy way. Thank you for chiming in on this discussion Robert! Sure, I agree... you can practice pulling chest and achieve some kind of 'balance' and coordination for it... I wish you the best of luck with all 'that"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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