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Has anybody here personally increased his Chest voice vocal range?

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Simon T8W

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Hey Robert

It's clearly not my intention to make this threat a back and forth between a few individuals. I just invite you to read what you have said, and what has been said by both me and Dante and then ask yourself if the conclusions you make hold up to what either I have said. I think you are probably stressed because of your heavy workload and in the process put some pieces together which neither Dante nor me have said or even believe in. That's why I wanted to set the record straight, there is nothing personal about this.

Remember that I facilitated the exchanges on skype between us all, so I'm not sure why you want to update me on the situation...

The very reason I asked you to come is because I felt you wanted to contribute and exchange, so I don't get why you think we have somehow disvalued your feedback on this thread or on this topic ;>

I hope we can close this off now.

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this can be a great discussion if it's kept non confrontational. both teachers have valid points. after all, it's voice teaching, the most multi-opinionated discipline to begin with....lol!!!!

coincidentally, i've read (just last night) in "the structure of singing" the very 1st chapter deals with onsets. although the balanced onset is the ideal, the glottal onset can be used for students remedially for helping breathiness and for those students with "uninvolved" phonation tendencies.

rob, maybe that was dante's strategy for that particular student?

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The point that my workload creates a distraction and I lose some details in the context is probably true... that and my limited skills in communicating effectively in the written medium when debating...

I didn't know that "Elrathion" is Olivier...

I like the idea, Dante is great, I think the glottal attacks are risky, sirens are good... let's explore other ways to train the chest-like muscularity. That is my message.

And thanks for calling me out if I was 'terse" in my response... I don't mind being called out for my transgressions , I'm man enough to deal with it appropriately.

I should probably just let you guys do your thing and step out...

Alls good...and please DO invite me to your conference calls again... I really enjoyed it and I think its probably good for me... :cool:

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like I said Robert, my point is not to exclude anyone from anything or to make character assassinations on this board ;>

Confrontational intense debates is actually what make forums great. But ofcourse we always must make sure we can answer in an honest way to eachother, even if we disagree ;> Sometimes most is learned from playing devil's advocate, it's a style I use alot to get to the bottom of a truth myself.

Let's continue on the chest voice increase :P The poor fellow who wrote this prolly didn't think this would turn into one of these monster threads!

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If I understand the reason for this post, then it means trying to find a healthy way to keep chest musculature fully active while ascending up through and past the passagio? (thus increasing chest range?) Or is that an oversimplification?

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in MY and i'll say it again MY experience glottal attacks or what i like to call and many speech therapists call "pure vocal function" exercises or what Reid called coup de glotte(shock of the glottis-the perfect attack are used to get the voice to work in its most efficient way. When a student comes to me and sounds breathy or maybe to heady and he wants to have a chestier coordination on his top voice i work the attacks on every scale. Think about it if you start with the cords a little open say on a light attack an h or m on the first note of the ascending scale or siren by the time you get to the top you are going to have to use more force to keep the cords closer together. but on the other hand if you start the scale with a NICE ATTACK no h, when you go up the scale it will not be quite as hard to keep the approximation because you started with the cords slightly closer. Not saying you cant the other way just saying its very healthy to use the coup de glotte(fancy word for glottal attack)therapists use it all the time as well as vocal teachers.

and on a side note we know breathiness causes vocal problems and is damaging so start nice and healthy.

Hope that helps

(disclaimer) I'm not saying I'm right just giving my experience what worked for me and my students):P

Daniel

www.danielformicavocalstudio.com

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If I understand the reason for this post, then it means trying to find a healthy way to keep chest musculature fully active while ascending up through and past the passagio? (thus increasing chest range?) Or is that an oversimplification?

It's not a matter if chest musculature needs to be active, but HOW MUCH can be active ;> If you don't allow your chest and headvoice musculature to be active simustaniously, you're basically singing with two seperate voices. It's a question of head AND chest AND pharyngeal AND proper larynx position.

That's why a very advanced student is able to come down from notes like F5 to full chestvoice, whereas most people will be in headvoice at F5 and so as they come down they'll bottom out. The difference is the one has enough vocalis activity, the other one sings with two seperate registers.

As for HOW MUCH you can take up, it's balancing act. if your larynx is nicely anchored by use of the cry mechanism, you can actually build quite a bit of chest musculature in your voice going up in a safe way.It's not something that builds overnight... But in the end it feels very natural using that amount of chest and then some when you're singing fully from your body [lower back aawww ;>] proper larynx position, etc...

Experiment with a good teacher, give it time :P

A key aspect is that in order for chest to be "pulled", you actually need the OPPOSITE of blasting. Yet most teachers demonstrate blasting and then call it "pulled chest". Yet true chestpulling prevents blasting, because the increased vocalis mass creates a bigger resistance force against the airpressure. It's creating a superior resistance :p

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in miller's book, which i started reading (thanks to a kind lender on the forum) he talks about the importance of a balanced onset.

he advises doing stacatto "ha,s" for help moving away from glottal attacks, with the goal of making the onset more solid, but gentle. steve fraser is a proponent of this as well.

i have that habit of attacking and squeezing and i'm trying to move away from it.

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in MY and i'll say it again MY experience glottal attacks or what i like to call and many speech therapists call "pure vocal function" exercises or what Reid called coup de glotte(shock of the glottis-the perfect attack are used to get the voice to work in its most efficient way. When a student comes to me and sounds breathy or maybe to heady and he wants to have a chestier coordination on his top voice i work the attacks on every scale. Think about it if you start with the cords a little open say on a light attack an h or m on the first note of the ascending scale or siren by the time you get to the top you are going to have to use more force to keep the cords closer together. but on the other hand if you start the scale with a NICE ATTACK no h, when you go up the scale it will not be quite as hard to keep the approximation because you started with the cords slightly closer. Not saying you cant the other way just saying its very healthy to use the coup de glotte(fancy word for glottal attack)therapists use it all the time as well as vocal teachers.

and on a side note we know breathiness causes vocal problems and is damaging so start nice and healthy.

Hope that helps

(disclaimer) I'm not saying I'm right just giving my experience what worked for me and my students):P

Daniel

www.danielformicavocalstudio.com

nice post daniel

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That's right bob lLook in my post and see where I wrote when a student comes to me blah blah. EVERYBODY is different so reading a book from someone is not the answer for EVERYBODY. You need to balance the voice as a teacher so if you're breathy and heady why am I gonna work in hh's it would just unbalance you more to that side I have to put you in the middle

Daniel

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Dante i understand you because i think not for sure that you come from the same place. Meaning you look for answers and understand the technique and want to learn more like myself however like myself you actually sing. I find some peace in that:D

daniel

www.danielformicavocalstudio.com

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If I understand the reason for this post, then it means trying to find a healthy way to keep chest musculature fully active while ascending up through and past the passagio? (thus increasing chest range?) Or is that an oversimplification?

Essentially Keith, I believe so... it wouldn't mean that the headier placements are not still phoned "deep" and deployed... your not going to engage the constrictors/belt/shout instincts.... but build unique strength at the laryngeal layer. Such as, thicken the vocal folds and other details... that Dante is talking about...

It probably has its limits on range based on the individual, but its benefits might be that from about E4-G#4 (men) or higher for others..., could get a beefier or more "belt-like" sound.

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Agree Robert, you also get à new very powerful choice. You get some more notes where you can decide if you want to bridge or not.

For example some songs lie so you have to bridge and connect like 5 Times every chourus, usualy if you can "belt" one or two notes more you can choose to only bridge one or two times. Some songs are actualy like à jojo in the passagio

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in MY and i'll say it again MY experience glottal attacks or what i like to call and many speech therapists call "pure vocal function" exercises or what Reid called coup de glotte(shock of the glottis-the perfect attack are used to get the voice to work in its most efficient way. When a student comes to me and sounds breathy or maybe to heady and he wants to have a chestier coordination on his top voice i work the attacks on every scale. Think about it if you start with the cords a little open say on a light attack an h or m on the first note of the ascending scale or siren by the time you get to the top you are going to have to use more force to keep the cords closer together. but on the other hand if you start the scale with a NICE ATTACK no h, when you go up the scale it will not be quite as hard to keep the approximation because you started with the cords slightly closer. Not saying you cant the other way just saying its very healthy to use the coup de glotte(fancy word for glottal attack)therapists use it all the time as well as vocal teachers.

and on a side note we know breathiness causes vocal problems and is damaging so start nice and healthy.

Hope that helps

(disclaimer) I'm not saying I'm right just giving my experience what worked for me and my students):P

Daniel

www.danielformicavocalstudio.com

Ok thanks Daniel, I get what your saying totally... You are saying the same thing that I am suggesting to some degree... I am saying that, if the adjustments are made early on, back at the onset, ... (and Dan , that is what your saying... "glottal attacks at the onset"), your configuration can be set into a closer calibration for it through out the entire phonation. Yes, I would have to agree with that... At TVS we say, "if the onset is bad, the phonation that follows is bad". "If the onset is good, the phonation that follows is good". The principle point here is, what ever it is you want your phonation to do for you... set it up, back at the onset.

There seem to be three kinds of Onsets you could use:

1). A Glottal Attack Onset (what you guys are suggesting).

2). A semi-occluded phonation onset (beginning on resonant tracking, 'm', 'n', 'ng').

3). An Aspirate or 'windy' onset. (beginning on an 'H' as in 'Hey'.

I can appreciate how a glottal attack can kind of "shock" the musculature into place and get a full, immediate contraction just by raw inertia, or frankly,... brute strength.

Even if this works, and I have no reason to doubt anyone here about this... I'm not convinced that you can't train to MODIFY to this configuration out of resonant tracking or an aspirate onset. If you trained this alternative onsets in addition too, the glottal attack onsets... you would surely build coordination to 'throttle' the configuration more... more command and control. In this way, you can control or 'drive' how much you want... The different onsets force you to find a way to get there, via a different path. And if you solve that coordination and "puzzle" , the out come would be an enhancement of your ability to command and control the thing...

Ok, so what would be interesting would be to hear the same note... onsets on the three different kinds of onsets and see what kind of changes, challenges and end result you get from it. What can we learn from working to get to this configuration, through different onsets that establish a different physical 'attitude' at the beginning?

If ... after working with that idea... you discovered that you could modify to the 'chestier' musculature without a glottal attack... it would strongly suggest that there is another onset that is viable, but less risk... for beginners.

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in miller's book, which i started reading (thanks to a kind lender on the forum) he talks about the importance of a balanced onset.

he advises doing stacatto "ha,s" for help moving away from glottal attacks, with the goal of making the onset more solid, but gentle. steve fraser is a proponent of this as well.

i have that habit of attacking and squeezing and i'm trying to move away from it.

Right... see Bob's statement, "... I have that habit of attacking and squeezing and I'm trying to move away from it"... is what Im pointing out. Bob is trying to get to the same place, with softer onset techniques, one of which would be an aspirate onset of "H"...

If you can modify to this heavier configuration starting on an "H"... I can assure you that placement and "release" from constriction will be pure and REALLY good... the perfect scenario would be, to be able to get a deep, released, heady position... with the heavier musculature... so you get what you want, but far removed from the constrictors and 'belt/shout' instincts.

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no, no, i understand. i agree.

miller was saying that breathy onset or breathy phonation can also be psychological as much as muscular weakness.

just mentioning things....

The BIGGEST benefit you get from an aspirate, or "H" onset is... constriction release and depth of placement... Beginners that are reading this... if your choking on a high note... change your onset going into your head voice to an "H" and you will find that the constriction usually goes away and your placement is pristine.

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rob, just a quick mention to clarify. frisell never talked much about sirens, and he doesn't believe in lip bubbles or tonque trills.

his approach to anything acsending only comes after much time spent in a top down mode.

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Dante, ok... that makes more sense to me... so glottal attacks are not an absolute in your view... ok... Hey, where is a link of you singing? Would love to hear it... !

Bob, I thought Frissell was doing top down sirens from 'head' to 'chest'?

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increase glottal attack to reduce breathiness - "gug" exercises

decrease glottal attacks to reduce harshness or slight pitchiness at onset - "hug" exercises

Redneck engineering, yeehaw ....

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gug is a sissy way to do it ..... only kidding you really want to do an onset of a nice even ah or eh no hh. Gug is fine if you have a nicely balanced voice and dont have many problems with onsets or breathiness or to much headiness h is fine too.

but thats just MY opinion MY opinion.-disclaimer

www.danielformicavocalstudio.com

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Dante,

Is it normal for your voice to be cracking more in the passagio as you practice this? I feel like I'm making progress as the muscles are getting stronger. I can now get up to about A4-B4 which is unheard of! No strain whatsoever.

It's just very difficult to maintain that pressure since they are not strong enough yet. It is CHEST voice, but I'm starting to believe what you said that head voice isn't really what people think it is!! I think it automatically invites more head voice in on it's own. Not this falsetto type head voice we think of. I remember you said this is completely different from open chest voice. Open chest voice will not go past E4-F4. It's not even the same sensation, it's a little lighter in feeling and deeper engaged in the body.

I am practicing on a slight glottal shock with an "ng" combined with "oh" ("uh" works too) at the same time. It works brilliantly.

I'm just worried about the cracking and unstableness. I guess it's just an effect of the muscles in my throat growing and getting stronger?

I have noticed though that it weakens the twangy high head voice. My F5's aren't as Tate/Halford resonant shattering anymore. But I guess this is temporary and helping me balance the voice? I still have a pure head voice "oo" btw, so I don't think any damage is taking place. But this is the sound I've been after and I think others have too.

Thanks,

AboveTenor

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