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Breath Support ....

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All I can say is many great singers I know personally if you were to ask them to take a breath they do everything wrong according to all the breathing technique we read and try from books and teachers. And on the other hand I know a lot of guys and girls that can tell you how you should inhale and exhale because it's so proper and that's what this book or that teacher or maestro told them how to do it but can sing a lick.

I'm just saying :)

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Depends what style your singing Daniel. I can tell you when I'm singing Musical Theatre or heavier opera pieces, if I don't make sure I can take a low breath, I'm epic fail ;> Now that doesn't go for all styles, but just saying ,>

You are right in what you attest to: closure plays an intrinsic and major part in closure. But it's important to see breath pressure, low breathing, and good resistance at the cord level as SYNGERETIC actions. They all complement eachother. Seperately, they never lead to good singing just on it's own.

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For the record Im not saying breathe wrong I'm very conscious of my breath even when I'm jumping and kicking on stage like David lee Roth I still always take a comfy low breathe and suspend for a moment as I start a phrase. But it wasn't until I fixed the cord closure issue then I could hold notes and phrases longer

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Man, does this tempt Cliche's or what? Right now I feel very much like the old "There are many paths..." :D

Sometimes, (not all the time) as long as you get where you're going (safely and efficiently) it doesn't matter how you get there. You know I go against the grain at times and I like to say "It's not how you play the game, it's if you win or lose." ;)

And no I didn't make a mistake! :)

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There are many paths. There are certain principles which are universal. However how you get students to do them is completely different often.

That's why a good, resourceful teacher is really benifitial. Bad teachers will run their scales through your throat, regardless if they work for you or adress your specific problems.

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Zedbo, there may be several factors at play here:

1) is your chest in a somewhat noble position? Not too high but not slouched or caved in with your back hunched over? It should stay in a somewhat lifted position and it shouldn't move too much when exhaling.

2) do you feel your abdominals, back and/or solar plexus engage when exhaling? This can be way too exaggerated sometimes but the right amount of it needs to be linked with a continuous and slow exhale.

3) while the folds do need to close in order to produce sounds, if forced close, progress can be very slow and sometimes not even be realized.

EGO

Guys, thanks very much for your responses especially Ego. Ego, in response to your questions I would definitely say that I'm happier with 1) and 3) than 2). I don't really feel my abs engaging so need to buildon that connection. It's as if I have to "pull" my abs in while singing rather than have them naturally return inwards.

But reading responses it might also be a lack of cord closure...

Zed

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guys, for me support is crutial to expressive multi-dimensional singing. in a lot of ways it's your volume knob. i'm so glad i chose to work on that part of my voice and will continue to.

it makes a lot of things that don't seem possible, possible for me. it also fixes things.

i say all of this because i'd hate to see anyone not benefit from it. that's all.

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wow, I was busy for a couple of days and loads of new posts now!!

Stew: great ideas, thanks. I may well do my next post on breathing for phrasing

Danielformica: I agree that vocal cord closure could be a problem and is very important, but surely not the only important thing? As I say in my post, "Although singing with breath support is important there are also a lot of contributing factors that make up a skilled singer with good vocal technique. The problem for you may not be singing with bad breath support but getting your vocal cords to receive the air correctly". I would say it's an important skill to learn though. Would your approach be to not do any breathing exercises?

also, in reference to your latest post I would say that those really good singers you know have a natural talent. In my experience most of the people with a natural talent are good at one style and that is their own style but don't have the knowledge to sing in any given way or format but Some people do and have never had a lesson in their life. Others don't but seek how to get better. Others have some talent but seek to improve on that. Surely people trying to gain more knowledge in this subject is a good thing?

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wow, I was busy for a couple of days and loads of new posts now!!

Stew: great ideas, thanks. I may well do my next post on breathing for phrasing

Danielformica: I agree that vocal cord closure could be a problem and is very important, but surely not the only important thing? As I say in my post, "Although singing with breath support is important there are also a lot of contributing factors that make up a skilled singer with good vocal technique. The problem for you may not be singing with bad breath support but getting your vocal cords to receive the air correctly". I would say it's an important skill to learn though. Would your approach be to not do any breathing exercises?

also, in reference to your latest post I would say that those really good singers you know have a natural talent. In my experience most of the people with a natural talent are good at one style and that is their own style but don't have the knowledge to sing in any given way or format but Some people do and have never had a lesson in their life. Others don't but seek how to get better. Others have some talent but seek to improve on that. Surely people trying to gain more knowledge in this subject is a good thing?

Gina to add to your comment those people that he has stated are not as "NATURALLY" talented as one might think. As we all know the human voice is a muscle and the stronger it is the more breath pressure it can resist right????

If someone with weak muscles of the voice tries to sing with that same breath pressure they will either sound breathy or pushed. They could also cause permanent damage to the voice. If a singer only focuses on the folds then they will get better at singing because they will be putting enough stress on the muscles of the larynx which will cause the voice to improve in strength and coordination. These "naturally" talented singers are really just very strong at the level of the larynx because of constant use/training. Just because they haven't had a lesson a day in their life does not mean that they are not trained to some degree. That's just like a guy who has never been taught or trained by a personal trainer, but he is strong because he works out everyday despite not having the knowledge of what muscles he is training exactly. This same guy will make significantly more progress if he is taught the correct mechanics of exercising.

At the end of the day we don't need a vocal coach/teacher to teach us to strengthen the muscles...We need them to teach us how to train the muscles more safely and accurately...Natural talent is a myth...We train to attain.

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I agree to a certain extent but I wouldn't say it's a myth that people are naturally talented.

I would say that different people are good at different things. some people are born more creative than others. and can express themselves better than others. If we apply that same theory to all music or all things in life where do child prodigies fit in? Wouldn't you call them naturally talented?

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I agree to a certain extent but I wouldn't say it's a myth that people are naturally talented.

I would say that different people are good at different things. some people are born more creative than others. and can express themselves better than others. If we apply that same theory to all music or all things in life where do child prodigies fit in? Wouldn't you call them naturally talented?

I can say that they are more musically inclined which is true, but we are good at what we like to do...I am pretty good at singing because I sing all the time, I am also good at sprinting because I sprint all the time, and I can also bench press about 350lbs because I lift weights all the time.

The body has a funny way of adapting to any kind of stress we place on it to keep us from injuring ourselves. These child prodigies are as good as they are because they sing all the time and have been encouraged to do so. Many of the music majors that I know at school had not had formal lessons until they started college, but many of them are still very proficient at the act of singing. There are really only two things that makes a good singer and that is having the strength/coordination within the muscles of the voice and the musicality within the mind. Although many of these naturally talented people have not been formally trained they more likely than not grew up around music which caused them to have a love for music at an early age.

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My pleasure Zedbo. I'll warn you right now not to strive for a ton of abdominal action. I'll try to describe to you the action that I go for during a slow exhale breathing exercise. It's been written a ton of different ways but here are a few that I relate to:

After a comfortable inhale, one where the solar plexus (squishy area between the belly button and the bottom of the chest) and lower ribs expand, I attempt to engage my lower core slightly:

WORD OF CAUTION: I do not close the vocal folds when I do this. I keep the folds open.

1) Similar to when you're on the toilet going number 2. Some have described it as a push down. do not do this with all your might.

2) Similar to when you're sitting at a table and you try to lift the table with your palms facing upwards

3) Similar to when you're lifting something heavy. Again not super strong but enough to feel the muscles working.

4) Siimilar to when you're hissing like a snake with emphasis on the 'S'. If you do this right, you'll feel the lower muscles engage, solar plexus, abs to a certain degree and other surrounding waist muscles.

Eventually when I felt that I could vary the amount of power that I had in these muscles with relative ease, i moved onto the breathing exercise. Basically, I take a nice comfortable breath, NOT a full breath.... but a comfortable one, don't expand too much around the chest or waist. After I have air, I can gently flex those lower core muscles and start the slow hiss "sss". When I say slow, I don't mean nothing.... But I don't mean quickly either. Hard to explain but it's a lot less than if you were trying to scare a cat. In my opinion it is close to holding your breath. While doing this, I feel my abs ever so slowly moving in.... But I'm not concentrating on them moving in. I just make sure my chest is not collapsing.

After doing this for a while I take a break. Especially in the beginning, you may get light headed.

This is what has worked for me. After a few days, I began to be able to use the power of the lower muscles to hold back the air and bring power o the voice.

I believe those lower muscles are used to expel air quickly, such as when we cough or sneeze. The odd thing is, I think that if we condition the lower muscles to move slowly with the diaphragm, this creates the ability to send the right amount of breath to the vocal folds. Obviously air usage varies and therefore tension in these muscles will also. The exhalation muscles in simultaneous activation with the inhalation muscles.

Hopefully this makes sense. Let me know if you have any questions.

[Guys, thanks very much for your responses especially Ego. Ego, in response to your questions I would definitely say that I'm happier with 1) and 3) than 2). I don't really feel my abs engaging so need to buildon that connection. It's as if I have to "pull" my abs in while singing rather than have them naturally return inwards.

But reading responses it might also be a lack of cord closure...

Zed

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I can say that they are more musically inclined which is true, but we are good at what we like to do...I am pretty good at singing because I sing all the time, I am also good at sprinting because I sprint all the time, and I can also bench press about 350lbs because I lift weights all the time.

Sometimes. I have seen many people in the gym for years getting nowhere...but they love it! Some of them are frustrated but then there are those who swear they are doing great. I have also seen those training at something for many years and still just don't get it. Yet they love what they are doing. Thus spending most of their time at it. There are many kinds out there. Some better than others for who knows what reason. Some try but never quite get it dispite starting at the same time and spending as much time as their peers. Actually how many people do we all know who have been singing for years and swear they are fantastic but just sound awful? This is nature and we'll never figure it out :)

The body has a funny way of adapting to any kind of stress we place on it to keep us from injuring ourselves.

Yes. This is why we grow a callous after repeated abuse of an area of skin. Or a bone grows back stronger after a break. Actually it is how we grow bigger muscle by lifting weights. It's the constant breakdown of the muscles and the body repairing them even stronger in preparation for the next onslaught.

I suppose the same principles or theories can be applied (to an extant) in singing.

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Trust me I know all about muscles since I am a personal trainer and in college for exercise science...Those people that you see in the gyms year after year who make no gains are the people that are either impaired, they are not increasing the stress being placed on there body, or they just need the proper instruction from someone who knows what they are doing. This statement remains true regardless of what skill you are trying to execute. I have met very few people who were not able to get stronger with or without a trainer.

Honestly I do nothing special, but provide them with the tools based on pure science and break it down into its simplest terms. People don't really need to know they how and whys as much as they need to know what to do to perfect the skill. If they want to know how and why then I tell them, but other than that they just need to train accordingly. Some of us figure out how to train without the help of another person "NATURALLY" talented...Others need that extra guidance to make sure we are on the right track for success.

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Trust me I know all about muscles since I am a personal trainer and in college for exercise science...Those people that you see in the gyms year after year who make no gains are the people that are either impaired, they are not increasing the stress being placed on there body, or they just need the proper instruction from someone who knows what they are doing.

I don't disagree and I wasn't disputing this point. I was only addressing the statement "but we are good at what we like to do." :) I was merely saying (granted the long way), not necessarily imo. I agree that if someone isn't making gains in the gym after a period of time then they are training wrong or have poor instruction. But, the point remains that even though they love what they are doing it doesn't mean they will excel.

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Oh okay cool :) I wasn't trying to come off defensive just sharing thoughts. Besides I have always admired your point of view on things...You have to question the unquestionable to be directed to the correct answer.

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Hey Gina I don't think you saw my post

For the record Im not saying breathe wrong I'm very conscious of my breath even when I'm jumping and kicking on stage like David lee Roth I still always take a comfy low breathe and suspend for a moment as I start a phrase. But it wasn't until I fixed the cord closure issue then I could hold notes and phrases longer

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