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TVS mode/techinique?

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Thewall
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In CVT (complete vocal technique) we have mode called edge. Underneath I have an example of someone that is singing clearly in edge and it's 100% healthy. He does this night after night. I have been learning this technique myself and it's very hard to stay in the mode and it strains you out easily if you're not in the center of the mode or very near.

Try the vowel "e" like in the word "edge". You should keep a broad tongue and make sure your tongue is in contact with the upper teeths (first/second molar). Try to pretend that you have a pea on the back of your tongue that you have to sqweese against the back of your soft palate. It sounds almost nasal but it's the way to do it. You need to raise the larynx and keep your mouth wide and not let your jaw drop to much. If you do it correctly it will sound very free and healthy. Having good support is of course essential as well. And it have to be LOUD!

How are you in TVS covering this technique? It's very common. Artists like Jorn Lande, Dio, Tony Harnell, (in the studio mainly. He goes over to neutral or head voice when he's over D5 live) and Freddy Mercury.

So here are the clips:

I'm not saying this "headvoice"-bridging thing is wrong because I love Geoff Tate, Michael Kiske,Mark Boals, Dickinson and all those guys who uses it. But I like this sound as well

Pardon my english

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Owen, I doubt that Robert has ever said that TVS prefers overdrive over edge, or overdrive period, because overdrive is pretty much pulling chest on the Eh and Oh vowels, which TVS is NOT about.

I think that the TVS Twang vocal mode is the closest to the CVT edge mode. Edge would be louder, but like Owen said, TVS is okay with somewhat more pushed vocal modes, but consider bridging early to be safer, in particular for people who aren't very advanced.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Cheers.

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Cool. But as far as CVT goes, curbing is much closer to "covering" than overdrive. Uh is a curbing vowel. I would think that TVS twang is mostly in the CVT metal-like-neutral (mln) region but sometimes in the curbing region (for those TVS people who might use a bit more volume). Again, I could be wrong.

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IMO edge has more "metal"/"chestiness" than TVS head voice. But it can be a bit quacky too when you first try it, you need to tweak the sound color to get it more like how you want. I'm certain Robert and the TVS folks can make the edge sounds, but they seem to have more of a sound ideal than CVT so would keep away from it.

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Fascinating... Owen, thanks for chiming in. The question of what some TVS phonations would be in CVT terms has been asked of me several times on this forum in the past and since I am not a practitioner of CVT, I cannot claim to be perfect in my answer. However, my understanding and based on my ears is the standard TVS training phonation for most students would be more akin to curbing or metal/neutral, but these are not the only sounds we make. TVS phonations are also heavily influenced by the dampening of the larynx. In particular, my students and I are paying close attention to tuning the voice to the 2nd harmonic for a rounder, more bluesy overtone. This is an overtone and harmonic I don't hear in CVI samples.

But getting back to your question... Jan Thorne sounds great. What I hear in this is two things. 1). an incredible vocal tract. He was blessed with some favorable physiology and 2). there is musculature in this sound.

To achieve this sound, we would work on "Contract & Release" onsets to build a more beefy framework and in doing so, produce a sound that is similar to this. It would be thicker and more 'shouty'. The work flows and steps to train it are made very clear with the TVS pedagogy. The drawback would be it is more fatiguing to sing like this.

Here is a clip that is similar to the sound that I have trained for years.... It is slightly headier and that means it is a lot less fatiguing in my view. The sense of more 'weight' in the sound is not from heavier musculature or pulling chest, but from intrinsic anchoring and focusing on dampening the larynx more for a 2nd harmonic amplification and other things. There is also a lot of vowel modification in this kind of singing. The result is it tends to be more theatery and less fatiguing. This approach 'FLOATS' a lot more, it feels better then the thicker muscle stuff.

But recently we are working with heavier mass sounds and activating more musculature similar to the Jan samples. I have concluded that it really is just a matter of preference as to what flavor you want, but either way, I can help you to train it, the secret, if you will, is a lot about what you do at the onset. At TVS we teach different onset types to build different muscle memory for different sounds. The onset we would work on that would help you to make an 'edge' sound is called the "contract & release" onset. Always evolving...

Personally for me, I prefer to sing with more "float' then more "mass" in my singing and when I train all day long... it just feels better and I like the more theatery vibe I get from it and the "boom" of the dampening... but that's just my preference. If you want more weight, just like you discovered, you will trade fatigue for more muscularity. But if you train it long enough, you can build the endurance for it.

The more I do this... the more you just have to really focus a lot on your own vocal tract. The sounds that your voice can make well. Its great to be inspired by people like Geoff Tate and Jan, but put an equal amount of time into discovering your own voice. Some people have more heavier sounding voices and other people have more float in their voice... you have to discover the attractor state and colors of your own vocal tract above and beyond all else...

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IMO edge has more "metal"/"chestiness" than TVS head voice. But it can be a bit quacky too when you first try it, you need to tweak the sound color to get it more like how you want. I'm certain Robert and the TVS folks can make the edge sounds, but they seem to have more of a sound ideal than CVT so would keep away from it.

I can make the edge sound, but I don't like it. Its too brittle for me.

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That's where definitions become hard, because I would never consider the guy in that clip "pulling chest". Infact, most people can't pull chest correctly. Instead then people demonstrate an imbalancedly light amount of chest, and claim that to be pulling chest, while in fact it's the lack of chest that made the sound so hollow in the first place.

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I agree Robert. The standard TVS sounding sounds to me like curbing with a transition to neutral. And that's fine, it sounds good if you get enough "chest" sound from it.

To be able to sing with a decent amount of diction above C5 and not sounding strained is hard to do in edge. Some of us are definitely more capable than others. It's maybe a little bit easier for those who are tenors, because their "natural" breaking point (passaggio or whatever) comes later than bass and baritones? 90% of the "edgers" I've heard are tenors or high barritones.

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To be honest, I don't hear that much of a difference between Thore and Tate, apart from Tate's vowels being a bit rounder. I mean, the amount of chest sounds practically the same, especially when Thore hits the 5th octave notes in the first clip.

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To be honest, I don't hear that much of a difference between Thore and Tate, apart from Tate's vowels being a bit rounder. I mean, the amount of chest sounds practically the same, especially when Thore hits the 5th octave notes in the first clip.

I totally agree Trip... I do hear a slight difference, but how can you say that is technique and not vocal tract. Eventually you get to this point where its just slight differences in configuration and vocal tract. The margins get so thin and at some point, it just doesn't matter. Just different shades of cool. I will say, I don't think Jan is pulling chest either... but I think its taking more effort and work to make that sound then the more rounder, floaty Tate sound.

Its all just preference and you can train both approaches, that is what makes it exciting. In the end, I like my point, explore your own voice and see where your voice wants to go. You don't always know where your voice wants to go. You may want to have a sound like Jan, but your voice and tract take you to a more rounder sound like Tate. You just have to discover what you have, get to know it, and then make it the best you can.

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Robert is right in saying Jan is not pulling chest. He is letting the resonance take over on the top notes.

And also everyone is gonna sound different doing things thats what makes us all unique. Like Robert said the vocal tract for everyone is different. A finger print lets say.

For me listening and performing this doesn't require huge amounts of breath pressure if I try to hard it feels strained and falls apart.

Throughout all the yrs of singing it wasnt until the point when I realized back off and let the resonance take over. It was like bingo I dont have to work so hard. :D

Recently I found a clip of an opera coach who is 91yrs old.. what i found cool about him is he approaches top notes much like the way I explain to students "Think falsetto but sing out full voice" Don't support to much on the top Check it out

here he hits and F above high c

here he explains the high c

translation

I sing out super acuti(high notes) like soprano or tenore leggero.

You don't push! You should think about farsetto.

You don't sing in farsetto, but try to think like falsetto.

If I sing this in farsetto, I don't push and force nothing breath, vocal cords

And mouth.

So you try to think about falsetto, you should sig out very lightly,

Like this (Angelo's example) ~~~ Diaframma stays.

The higher notes you sing, hte lighter and tenderer you should sing out.

(You never push and cry out high notes! )

I'll try to translate this video from Italian to English. The teacher says: " When you sing a high note, you have to think about falsetto. But not to sing in falsetto. Thinking about falsetto helps you sing without pushing your voice with your mouth, throat or breath. The more your note is high, the less you have to push to sing it. You don't have to push your voice, you have to use your mouth to support your acute. Dont' move your diaphragm, just try to expand it.

This is very important to understand. I have been explaining this to students and friends for yrs when they ask me how I sing high I always reply " I sing it in falsetto first then I drop my full voice in the same place same position. I do not try to push to hard I just expand my stomach."

It was really cool to find this guy because he helped me believe that what i was doing and teaching is correct (for me) even from a classical stand point:D

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Hey CunoDante Great post! I totally agree with you. I hear a BIG difference between does too as well. Edge notes sounds sharp, loud and really "comes out", while I think TVS headvoice-singing sounds more like you holding it back and a little rounder. There are varieties, but in general...

How can you guys not hear the big difference? I don't get it.

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I agree and something I have been saying for a while, in so many different words. But essentially, no two voices will sound exactly the same, even if doing the same thing at the same pitch. But you will not ever be able to convince some people who wish to believe that just right percentage of this or that technique, they can sound this or that singer. Never. For them, it is a matter of faith and faith often wins over science, applied or otherwise.

The sound of two differing voices is not always a matter of technique and how it is applied. Voices are just different. And the converse. It is possible for two people sharing almost none of the same physical traits, coming from different parts of the world, sound very similar to each other. Without some magic pill or herculean effort.

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Dan, so you don't think that it takes an insane amount of physical effort to sing high, full notes?

I kind of happen to agree with you. It does take extra effort but not by a HUGE amount. But if you sing like that for a long time, endurance becomes a factor. Then it helps to remember to always breath low and relaxed between phrases.

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Hey CunoDante Great post! I totally agree with you. I hear a BIG difference between does too as well. Edge notes sounds sharp, loud and really "comes out", while I think TVS headvoice-singing sounds more like you holding it back and a little rounder. There are varieties, but in general...

How can you guys not hear the big difference? I don't get it.

Wall, there is no such thing as "TVS Head Voice Singing"... there is one voice that is connected and seamless. I don't think anyone said they couldn't hear the difference. I think people generally were saying they could, including me so I think your confused on discussion.

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This is a great thread and this is exactly what I mean by one voice. We shouldn't have to choose to be in chest, mixed, or head when all of these should be simultaneously used to really have control.

I don't think that anyone or these samples is suggesting you have to choose to be in some metaphorical voice "up/down' perspectives of registration which is the fundamental problem with c/h descriptions. If I say "headier" placement, I didn't mean something like "head voice singing". It means a lighter mass. A lighter mass of the entire mechanism.

It is three factors at play here I suppose:

1). the unique variables in each vocal tract, (to Ron's point, something everyone fails to point out here on this forum too often).

2). The amount or rather coordination of muscularity in the singing, how is it being configured. How are the components in the phonation package being worked and coordinated

3). How the respiration is being used, which in turn is influencing the vocal fold closure.

I think there is some truth to the statement that this early Geoff Tate sound could be easily worked to sound more like Jan if you wanted it to and it actually is not too far from it. For a singer like Tate its only a matter of 30-90 days of working out the right muscles and also deploying some minor changes on the respiration I suppose. Its just how you work out the muscles. The onsets your training with, the vowels your training with, how your using the respiration have a lot to do with it, but there are other components in the phonation package a well that need to be calibrated.

I'm not just saying this to be the contrarian, but they are just two slightly different ways of using the voice and you can train to sing either way with the drop of a dime if you know what your doing and train it. You don't have to make a choice, and why would you want to? In TVS, we would say that Tate's sound is a bit lighter in the mass and Jan is more medium mass. The variables are mainly, unique physiology, (do you think Steve Perry is ever going to sound like Jan?... I doubt it, but he could sound beefier for HIS voice), musculature and respiration.

Here is Geoff Tate a few years later, sounding beefier:

Voices are not static, they are dynamic systems. You can train a heavier sound and you can train a lighter sound if you have a coach that knows what they are doing with it and at these levels of mastery, its just a matter of preference. I agree with some of Dante's points... but one point I don't agree with is that Tate sounds 'androgynous'? I don't think so, I think he sounds very masculine and powerful. Its just a different flavor. 'Androgynous' would be more like Steve Perry... but regardless, both Steve Perry and Geof Tate have sold over 30 million albums, far more than Jan... so I think there is something to be said about the way they use their voices and I think that is, its great... just as Jan is great. It is just different shades of grey and preference. Last time I checked, millions of listeners have enjoyed the lighter approach of Geoff Tate, Steve Perry, Jeff Buckley, Dennis de Young, Adam Lambert and others... Don't make the mistake of concluding from these discussions that a lighter mass means its not as cool. That would be short-sighted and missing an important point.

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Robert, could you elaborate a little on the concept of 'contract & release' onset that you've mentioned? Sounds interesting!

I have developed 6 specialized onsets with training work flows in The Four Pillars of Singing 2.0 that are mostly used to trouble-shoot different problems in M2 (Head voice). Each has a unique advantage and would be deployed for specific reasons with a student. The "Contract & Release" onset is unique as it is the only one of the 6 that you would typically not use in singing, but only use in training. It is used to build more musculature in and around the larynx for the purpose of getting a beefier sound or adding weight to the aesthetic. Other onset trouble-shooters are used to achieve other aims or fix other problems when working to get connectivity in M2.

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I dunno but i dont hear him edgeing that much above high C, the usual metallikeneutralblend that most rocksingers use. in my experience the fullmetallic modes becomes even more screamy up on the highnotes even if you lighten them. the thing is you can hear his volume drop for instance when he moves up to the e5, his volume drops he adds hold and covers. Infact i would say he uses curbing for alot coloring with edge and overdrive for certain parts curbing to mln for the highs.

His technique is very similar to my favourite singer daniel heiman exept that daniel heiman is even alittlebit more skilled.

Sure he is very chesty below the high C and i hear him use all the various modes, but above high C its the usual blend youll hear most good rocksingers use.

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That's a good post Jens, thanks for chiming in. Brosef. :cool:

That is the interesting thing to me is, yes... Jan sounds killer. But so does Geoff Tate. They both sound killer, but hearing the two approaches at such olympic athletic levels, is fascinating.

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This is also what I'm trying to say, but perhaps didn't get it across well. When I said that Jan's way of singing required more breath pressure, it was only as a relative thing when compared to Geoff's way of singing. One should never use so much breath pressure to the point where you can't control things anymore and you become locked and rigid.

~~Dante~~

good post rob! (the bottom paragraph on post #25)

folks, may i say something regarding high notes and effort....

a lot depends on the vocalist's voice weight and the size of the voice. if i want a really powerful ringing high note, i feel the effort throughout my whole body, especially when the song doesn't let up (tessitura) and you're up there and sitting up there.

but "effort" to one singer may mean something totally different to the other.

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