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Breath support and the hissing exercises. Any thoughts???

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izzle1989

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you can open the velopharyngeal port with a raised palate as well.

also let's not confuse nasality with nasal resonance. in the latter, if you sing with an open throat and in conjuction with pharygeal resonance and support you can produce serious ring in the voice.

True

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Humm if I hold back too much, I prevent enough pressure to be provided, too little and start to feel my larynx acting to keep it in place.

There is another scenario, that is preparing a huge compression and never using it, which makes the phrase sound unnatural. Ill send samples.

I have been struggling with this for some time and I would appreciate if you guys tell me what you think about this.

How do you create air pressure? I mean, isn't that just the force you use to exhale the air? Because some people say that for high notes you just need to supply your vocal folds with just a small airflow. Now imagine when you do the 'sss' exercise, you maintain a small air flow, so that should be enough to supply your folds to make loud high notes right? But maintaining this small air flow takes much less energy than what it takes when singing high notes. And for louder sounds we do need to push more air. So isn't 'supporting more' just using more force to exhale the air? If what I said is right, then, the higher the note more you should force the air out. And the straining problems should come from the folds working harder trying to keep the balance to compensate when the airflow is too much or too little for the given vocal cords configuration (e.g. providing much more air than the sufficient for the given pitch and or volume, etc).

Concluding, to expand our range, talking about high notes, that way we shouldn't really be so worried about support after all, we should keep practicing so that the muscles that control our vocal cords resist to this bigger air pressure. The air flow 'until' (not after or above the folds) our vocal cords is the same, our trachea space won't change. But then to increase the pressure of the air we are just pushing more air, don't you agree?

These are just my thoughts, I'm no expert, just a student. Please share with me your thoughts about this.

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you can open the velopharyngeal port with a raised palate as well.

also let's not confuse nasality with nasal resonance. in the latter, if you sing with an open throat and in conjuction with pharygeal resonance and support you can produce serious ring in the voice.

Oh, I'm not confusing them, I'm just saying that air passing through the nasal cavity would be nasality. Sound vibrating the walls of the nasal cavity is nasal resonance, the good stuff.

Just now I learned that "raising the soft palate" is actually more of a subjective image equal more or less to "creating space in the throat". So in that sense your right, one can create space in the throat with the velopharyngeal port either open or closed :)

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How do you create air pressure? I mean, isn't that just the force you use to exhale the air? Because some people say that for high notes you just need to supply your vocal folds with just a small airflow. Now imagine when you do the 'sss' exercise, you maintain a small air flow, so that should be enough to supply your folds to make loud high notes right? But maintaining this small air flow takes much less energy than what it takes when singing high notes. And for louder sounds we do need to push more air. So isn't 'supporting more' just using more force to exhale the air? If what I said is right, then, the higher the note more you should force the air out. And the straining problems should come from the folds working harder trying to keep the balance to compensate when the airflow is too much or too little for the given vocal cords configuration (e.g. providing much more air than the sufficient for the given pitch and or volume, etc).

Concluding, to expand our range, talking about high notes, that way we shouldn't really be so worried about support after all, we should keep practicing so that the muscles that control our vocal cords resist to this bigger air pressure. The air flow 'until' (not after or above the folds) our vocal cords is the same, our trachea space won't change. But then to increase the pressure of the air we are just pushing more air, don't you agree?

lucastonon: I apologize for joining this thread so late.

In my experience, in actual singing, and especially when working with beginning singing students with loud or low speaking voices, its the other way around. For these folks (and I include my own voice here) the issue is not too little air pressure, its too _much_. For us, 'support' is to bring the exhalation forces to a lower level so that the laryngeal muscles have the necessary freedom of function, and throat/tongue constriction is avoided.

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Ya'll don't want to engage in a fart contest. I will win and it won't be pretty. :rolleyes:

I think different people get different results with either segregated exercises or concurrent ones. Singer Ron Keel, I think it was, mentioned spending a few months on just the breathing before he got into scales and vocalises. He wanted the breathing to be reflexive so that later, he could concentrate on pitch accuracy. Others, such as myself, just jump in and sink or swim, as the case may be. The downside of that is that you may learn to dog-paddle just to keep your head up, rather than developing the full stroke, if I may continue the metaphor.

For hissing to really be of value to breath management, it cannot be a case of just allowing the teeth to provide resistance to holding back the air, as you will translate that to the folds and that will be wrong.

Instead, it should be a chance to learn to use the abs to slow the escape of air so that the hiss is soft. By doing this, you will meter air more properly when actually phonating.

The glottis is an aperture created by differences in pressure above and below the folds when they are in close adduction. With the exception of Steven Tyler, most singers have one aperture, producing the fundamental tone.

There is a limit to the volume of the tone generated from how much air pressure one uses. Actual amplifcation of the tone comes from resonance. It's an actual fact of physics, regardless of the various schools of thought on singing.

So let me whip out physics, yet again. A note has a wavelength, from peak to peak. And these peaks are repeated a certain number of times in a second. For example, A4 happens to be 440 Hz. That's 440 repeats of the peak in one second. That translates back to a certain physical length of the wave. In the right size and shape of space, the wave will double back on itself in sync. When this happens, the repeated wave actually adds to the original. This creates a tone with the same wavelength with twice the amplitude. Amplitude is the height of the peak from the reference point of zero. And amplitude is what gives the volume of the tone. Always has, always will, it's a fact of physics.

This doubling of amplitude produces a logarithmic increase in volume, not a linear increase. And there is a point of diminishing returns as to how high an amplitude you can create and any increased volume you will perceive from it.

To me, breath support is breath management. Knowing when to step on the gas and when to let off, to use another metaphor.

So the act of hissing is not what teaches breath management. It is a "target" against which to practice controlling your exhalation so that the hiss is not forced.

I'm certainly not an expert. I know just enough anatomy to be dangerous. And have studied physics and math, too. But that's not always important to learning a concept, at least from a student point of view. But it seemed to help me, here and there.

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Steven, thank you for answering. I agree with you everyone or most singers once in their life had problems with too much air pressure but let's say one have a good control over his exhalation muscles, so the natural tendency of the diaphragm won't take over. Then he sings a high note and it's perfectly comfortable for him. If he wants to go up some notes he would have to support more wouldn't him? But if he support more he would decrease the air pressure and then, the note he was already singing would sound bad and he would have to squeeze to keep going up due to lack of air pressure. As I said, it requires less effort to maintain a small air flow than to maintain a big air flow. In that case supporting more would mean increasing air pressure.

Thank you.

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what level of support you employ can vary depending on such things as the note, the vowels, and the type of singing.

b.t.w., to hold back air pressure can be more taxing than adding pressure. you will find cases where maintaining a small, balanced air flow more difficult.

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what level of support you employ can vary depending on such things as the note, the vowels, and the type of singing.

b.t.w., to hold back air pressure can be more taxing than adding pressure. you will find cases where maintaining a small, balanced air flow more difficult.

Hi VIDEOHERE, but for high notes we need a higher amount of pressure than for the lower ones right? More than the amount that our diaphragm supplies us when it colapses during normal breathing exhalation.

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a lot depends on your intention...actually many factors influence support "level."

if you are singing really powerfully up high, yes. if it's just a light song, much less. a piano, long legato line, a lot.

when i sing some songs, let's say there's a punchy stacatto design to the song, (foreigner's "urgent" comes to mind)the support demands are so strong that if i allow my support to weaken i cannot maintain the intensity i'm singing at.

losing support in a song like this will cause you to push too much air, you can blow right through the folds....so skillful air containment, or better said air metering becomes a factor.

some songs you can sing with a feeling like no support is even required.

does this help?

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Going back to izzle's original post I think he has a point with the varying resistance thing. However I am admittedly saying this off the top of my head without first giving it much thought or analysis. But I do see what he is talking about and I believe it is always good to question and then to once again question the answer. When I come up with new ways of doing something I then try to knock down my own theories and question them to see if I can advance even more. When I was fighting and came up with a counter to something, I would then try to come up with a counter to my own counter, and so on. Ok I digress...sorry :)

I know what support is so now I forget about it. I just make sure I use it. While I do try to advance or at least maintain the ability to expel air for prolonged periods I can't say I actively train support. I think that by using it as I sing it gets all the training it needs (for me).

But I have different ways of accomplishing things, sometimes off the wall ways. This applies to everything, not just singing. As far as making sound or holding notes (support) I have the pressure thing down...or whatever you want to call it...so I tend to just do it without thought. But what I do try to do is play like I'm a kid goofing around. I try to forget about breath being connected to speaking or singing and try to just "make sound" without breath. I play. Impossible you say? You have to breath to speak. Of course it is, but I'm not talking about science and physics here I'm talking about "feeling like." Stop being pedantic just for a second. Move into right brain. Sometimes I do it with an expanded belly and sometimes without. If I do it with an expanded belly I try to make sound (full sound) without the belly moving but instead remaining expanded. Sometimes I go as long as I can just like that. Other times I go as long as I can and then little by little start letting some air escape (control) to extend the fullness. It isn't so much the sound I'm worried about but the fullness of it. Learning to make sound up top and without the conscious use of breath is what is key here. I could do better explaining in person. I also believe this will help with getting into head or at least more pharyngeal. You'll be excluding everything below the upper neck. just making sound, however you can without air. Well, without the thought of air. :) C'mon now. Think back to childhood. Now thing scientifically about what makes a belch/burp. Can you reproduce that without all the physics being in place, gas etc? No...but you can mimic it right? How many "boys" here can burp at will?

I truly believe what has helped me a lot has been a life of being the funny man. My wife always complains that I stare at people. I explain that I do it because I am interested in how people move and contort and act. I am a mimic and I like to imitate people for the sake of comedy. I have done it all my life. This has helped my learn about singing on my own. By mimicking sounds and techniques. So what I'm saying is that a lot of it (for me) is play. And I believe play helps in anything. Learn how to play. As children we learn much through play. We climb we run we jump. crawl, crouch and jump. All the time we are learning. We mimic our favorite ball players and sports hero's and from there develop our own techniques. Sadly most of us forget how to play when we age. I firmly believe we should learn how to use play purposefully.

Just my 2 cents.

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Yes thanks a lot. I was confused because every time someone mentioned about support it sounded like holding back your air more and more but after all it is the control of the exhalation.

lucastonon: Yes, control of the exhalation as it interacts with the phonation, so that just the right amount of energy is being supplied for the laryngeal adjustment.

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Yes thanks a lot. I was confused because every time someone mentioned about support it sounded like holding back your air more and more but after all it is the control of the exhalation.

it is very much a control thing...you're controlling the pressurized air from expelling too forcefully.

one of the best ways to "find" support is singing songs which require it. if you sing a song that requires a lot of it, you may just find yourself unable to sing the song well.

i don't know if you ever wanted to or have sung "urgent" but i know for me, that one really calls it into action. you really have get the punchy sound by doing the opposite of what it sounds like. it took me a while to figure it out.

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At the end you have got to figure out by yourself what works for you 'since it doesn't hurt'. I just think that when people have problem with some notes they should play around with their air pressure increasing and decreasing together with their vocal cords closure instead of thinking of just 'supporting more' when they might not even understand what that means. One great thing to do is to try out what people says that worked for them and learn with their experiences, if it doesn't work for you, then you just try something else until you find what works for you. Thank you Steven Fraser and VIDEOHERE for the replies.

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