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Technique question - Jay Buchanan - Rival Sons - Jordan

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Jay's singing here just blows me away. Would like to hear any thoughts on what techniques he uses and opinions on how he does things.

Song starts around 2:09

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I am amazed by the combination of finesse and power he uses in a lot of stuff he sings. Curious as to what he's doing technically to make it happen.

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Awesome song. At 6:46 I would love to be able to do that. Powerful.

he's a truly seasoned, skilled vocalist......just like you can be if you refuse to give up and work really hard at it.

it's within everyone's reach.

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Would like to hear any thoughts on what techniques he uses and opinions on how he does things.

Jay is a freak man. He's a vocal outlier with a phenomenal musical sensibility. I would suggest taking lessons for technique and learning songs and over years and years and years you can build one helluva voice + musicianship that should make you very happy. Srs.

he's a great singer watch some of his solo acoustic stuff.

This whole concert is great. He has a big voice for sure, but I really like how he keeps it grounded/organic/intense even on the softer stuff.

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nice interview, I read he claims to have had no vocal training, all self taught..

Well, then, he (the singer in the video) must be lying. Ronnie James Dio claimed to have never had voice lessons and others claimed he was lying to maintain a mystique.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

edited to add:

watched the interview. He should get points for using the word "daft."

If he grew up listening to his mom sing in church, was that a form of singing lessons?

Just as Dio grew up with a family that listened to opera?

Or is a singer only valid if they take lessons with a person describing themselves as a professional voice or singing teacher?

No, this is not serve my ego for my "figure it out for yourself" thing.

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Awesome song. At 6:46 I would love to be able to do that. Powerful.

MDEW,

it's definitely possible for you :) This style is what I do best, so if you ever need anything I'd be glad to help! Also, just wanted to say that you always pick great tunes to cover! I'm a diehard folk rocker at heart so I really dig your song choices :)

For me, this style of singing really comes down to attitude and vulnerability...I mean, you have to be prepared to GET LOUD, and that can be very disconcerting for a lot of people, especially if you're not a boisterous extrovert. Also, this singing really takes some "letting go" of inhibitions while performing in front of strangers because....THEY WILL BE FORCED TO LISTEN!!! So the mental aspect MAY BE HARDER THAN THE TECHNIQUE.

But for sure, you can do it. And before anybody says it has anything to do with voice type: I know several lead female singers, who would be classified as sopranos, that can peel paint off a wall with this style. i also know heavy ass baritone/bass singers that can wail on High B's/C's so voice type is not a factor. Is tessitura a factor? Probably? Maybe? I don't have that answer, but I would have to think so because it's demanding....but I really don't know. It certainly affects me when singing like this, but anywho...

Zinko,

Here's me working a bit of that 6:46 phrase that MDEW pointed out(just listened to this song today...this new album sounds fun.) It IS a bit "pressurized" but very well supported and feels GREAT TO SING! That should always be a marker for how you're doing IMO. Good singing feels good(or even great :D)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3catsTTOMs

What kind of singing are you doing right now? Covers? Originals? What style? etc

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That was pretty cool. You say you have to be loud. You also mention that it must be pressurized. What do you mean by that or can you explain more.

I usually sing 70's 80'sRock (Eagles, Doobie Bros, Allman bros, Aerosmith, Bob Seger.....) I haven't been able to sing the songs I like because they top around B4 and I top out at G4 on a good day.

Elton John, Stevey Wonder I can get above that but they have a lighter style.

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So the mental aspect MAY BE HARDER THAN THE TECHNIQUE.

Man, that sounds familiar, with slightly different wording. Me Likee.

:cool:

edited to add:

near the end, you mention to just sing songs and work the vowels. Kind of reminded me of Daniel, except that his hair is more curly.

:D

And, Daniel has the pink cowboy hat.

:D :D

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Man, that sounds familiar, with slightly different wording. Me Likee.

:cool:

edited to add:

near the end, you mention to just sing songs and work the vowels. Kind of reminded me of Daniel, except that his hair is more curly.

:D

And, Daniel has the pink cowboy hat.

:D :D

I know it's kind of lame but man...I honestly don't what to write anymore. I lurk a lot and have heard a ton of vocal samples that make me scratch my head in amazement. You know, people that can't even sing a basic melody ANYWHERE in their range and yet they want to tackle some of the hardest material out there. I'm NOT saying this is the case with the OP, just saying that I really don't know where to start without more background...and then... how impossible is it to convey stuff with the written word? Well, for me, very very hard :D

You also mention that it must be pressurized. What do you mean by that or can you explain more.

Well, is much easier to post vid! Sorry and I know has been covered million times, but it's what I mean when talking pressurized/supported:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vyFclrudjQ

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Thanks for the vid Analog. Definitely a Mental block on my part. I need to let the dam burst instead of holding back. The support is in place as far as the muscle set up, ribs expanded, diaphram ingaged.

I am getting in my own way. If I had a room I could lock myself in for a few hours I think I could get this.

Not master it but unlock it.

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Yeah...it can be kind of like an abusive relationship you know? Your throat is the battered wife and your constrictors are the abusive husband. Getting your throat to "trust" that the constrictors won't kick in is what good support is all about but it takes time to build that kind of muscle memory. Definitely need a "safe zone" to practice without being judged or the fear of being judged. Do you have rehearsal rooms in your town? Might be worth booking a room once a week to just relax/release and experiment. The car is also an option.

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cool vid, Analog. I think we view breathing the same way. It is there to be used, not just locked up, nor blowing through williy-nilly. But it is always mobile.

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cool vid, Analog. I think we view breathing the same way. It is there to be used, not just locked up, nor blowing through williy-nilly. But it is always mobile.

definitely...working against a resistance but ALWAYS mobile.

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Just saw them in LA, and was blown away by Jay. I can assure you he is the best male rock singer alive since Chris Cornell, and Dio before him. Speaking as a professional rock singer who can sing Rival Son's stuff, (sans formal training, too btw), voice is NOT like other instruments. A guitar teacher, for example, can teach anyone how to play a D chord.They can put your fingers on the frets and make you play it. You cannot do this with singers. A "coach'" can't reach down into your  throat and arrange your vocal cords. Vocal instruction is good to put the sprinkles on the icing on the cake. You, the singer, have to bring the cake and the icing, You cannot teach a bad singer how to be good, let alone sing like Jay or just be decent. The ONLY way to develop Jay's level of chops is to have a great ear at an early age (genetic), and be blessed with tone/pitch (genetic), something nobody can teach you. It's on you. The more you  sing, the better you will get. And you, on your own, will learn about what works and what doesn't. If you push yourself carefully, you will discover that you can move seamlessly between register shifts and voice shifts. You will learn how and when to use the core, when to blend, and when to rely on head voice alone and how to connect all in a song. You will learn how to blend falsetto into chest in a single line. Jay does this masterfully. And it's very difficult unless your breath control is solid. Your best education will be to watch the best singers and take notes of what you see and don't see in their technique. Watch Ronnie James Dio, watch Tom Jones, watch the people who are consistent, versatile, and make it look easy, which, in itself, is a technique. 

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3 hours ago, Axekicker said:

Just saw them in LA, and was blown away by Jay. I can assure you he is the best male rock singer alive since Chris Cornell, and Dio before him. Speaking as a professional rock singer who can sing Rival Son's stuff, (sans formal training, too btw), voice is NOT like other instruments. A guitar teacher, for example, can teach anyone how to play a D chord.They can put your fingers on the frets and make you play it. You cannot do this with singers. A "coach'" can't reach down into your  throat and arrange your vocal cords. Vocal instruction is good to put the sprinkles on the icing on the cake. You, the singer, have to bring the cake and the icing, You cannot teach a bad singer how to be good, let alone sing like Jay or just be decent. The ONLY way to develop Jay's level of chops is to have a great ear at an early age (genetic), and be blessed with tone/pitch (genetic), something nobody can teach you. It's on you. The more you  sing, the better you will get. And you, on your own, will learn about what works and what doesn't. If you push yourself carefully, you will discover that you can move seamlessly between register shifts and voice shifts. You will learn how and when to use the core, when to blend, and when to rely on head voice alone and how to connect all in a song. You will learn how to blend falsetto into chest in a single line. Jay does this masterfully. And it's very difficult unless your breath control is solid. Your best education will be to watch the best singers and take notes of what you see and don't see in their technique. Watch Ronnie James Dio, watch Tom Jones, watch the people who are consistent, versatile, and make it look easy, which, in itself, is a technique. 

Ah!!! I love some Rival Sons, can you get on the messenger chat so we can talk? Would love to hear how you approach this!

About voice training, it´s true we can´t reach down on other people´s throats, but I would not say it´s just an icing in the cake either. If you know how sounds are produced and you are smart, you can use certain sounds and ideas to help positions to be acquired. This can be pretty handy specially when dealing with powerful and high pitched vocals.

Welcome!!

Link to the chat in messenger:

https://m.me/join/AbaMTBP3g9tLhKss

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3 hours ago, Axekicker said:

. A "coach'" can't reach down into your  throat and arrange your vocal cords. Vocal instruction is good to put the sprinkles on the icing on the cake. You, the singer, have to bring the cake and the icing, You cannot teach a bad singer how to be good, let alone sing like Jay or just be decent.

    A "Coach" is just that. A Coach. You have "Teachers" who teach you the methods and Techniques and you have  "Coaches" who help guide you with where, when and how to use the techniques with different songs or your approach to singing them.

    There is a difference between "Training" and learning "Techniques" and Singing. Rarely do you have both together in a Vocal Program. 

     Our Voices are built the same way. They work the same way(unless there is some kind of deformity or injury ). The resulting sound may be different just like you have different sounds from different types of guitars but you still use the same guitar chords and rhythm and lead patterns.  The choices you make in what technique, which type of distortion to use, to open a vowel or close it, Head voice on this phrase, chest on that while singing a particular song is usually not part of a "Vocal Program". But, If you watch some of the Master classes with Opera singers you will usually see that instead of any talk on "Technique" you will find suggestions on delivery and How to make the song more dynamic and emotional to fit the song (Which includes chest voice on this phrase and head voice on that, sing softer here, etc.) rather than proper breath support and Pitch correction. The "Technique" training has already been done and usually for years before the "Master Class".

     Singers who have developed a style on their own usually do just that, develop a style that works with their voice and the type of music they are singing and they usually stick with that style. Take them out of their element and their "Style" or "delivery" may or may not work. How the voice works is the same for everyone. How you use it is what is different.

     Think about the different "Great Singers" , DIO, Chris Cornell, Bruce Dickinson,  Michael Jackson, Paul Rodgers, Freddy Mercury, Add in others from other genres....Elvis Presley, Smokey Robinson, Roy Orbison, James Brown on and on....Any one of them singing the other ones songs is not going to use the same distortion, vibrato, delivery etc of the other singer... it would not work. They are going to change the music to fit their style and they will adjust the Key to fit their voice. Elvis singing any other song is going to use the techniques and approach that worked for him and so is Chris, Dio, Paul and the others.

      The underlying "Techniques" or "Foundations" are still the same.....Breath support, Resonance strategies, Pitch tuning, larynx and soft palate adjustment..... "singing" is in the expression and delivery....Timing, Dynamics, Vibrato, Distortion and when to use them or not..... This CAN be taught but is not usually included in generic vocal training programs.

   

     

     

    

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On 3/23/2013 at 5:29 PM, analog said:

 

MDEW,

 

it's definitely possible for you :) This style is what I do best, so if you ever need anything I'd be glad to help! Also, just wanted to say that you always pick great tunes to cover! I'm a diehard folk rocker at heart so I really dig your song choices :)

 

For me, this style of singing really comes down to attitude and vulnerability...I mean, you have to be prepared to GET LOUD, and that can be very disconcerting for a lot of people, especially if you're not a boisterous extrovert. Also, this singing really takes some "letting go" of inhibitions while performing in front of strangers because....THEY WILL BE FORCED TO LISTEN!!! So the mental aspect MAY BE HARDER THAN THE TECHNIQUE.

But for sure, you can do it. And before anybody says it has anything to do with voice type: I know several lead female singers, who would be classified as sopranos, that can peel paint off a wall with this style. i also know heavy ass baritone/bass singers that can wail on High B's/C's so voice type is not a factor. Is tessitura a factor? Probably? Maybe? I don't have that answer, but I would have to think so because it's demanding....but I really don't know. It certainly affects me when singing like this, but anywho...

 

 

Zinko,

 

Here's me working a bit of that 6:46 phrase that MDEW pointed out(just listened to this song today...this new album sounds fun.) It IS a bit "pressurized" but very well supported and feels GREAT TO SING! That should always be a marker for how you're doing IMO. Good singing feels good(or even great :D)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3catsTTOMs

 

What kind of singing are you doing right now? Covers? Originals? What style? etc

 

On 3/22/2013 at 3:56 PM, VideoHere said:

nice interview, I read he claims to have had no vocal training, all self taught..... mother was a singer in church.

"Born into a family of musicians, including a mother who sang in church, Jay Buchanan didn’t ‘discover’ music in a sudden, Damascene revelation. Practically from birth he was immersed in old blues, folk, funk and soul, much of which would eventually feed into his own music with Rival Sons. In retrospect he agrees that everything he’s listened to has influenced him. “And that includes the music that I can’t stand,” the singer says, “all the shitty pop music, it’s all informed who I am as an artist.”

The above is from a website listing his top 10 influences.

You cannot say he was "Self Taught" when he grew up with other musicians and singers. You let each other know when things are sounding good and when something went wrong. And you have the opportunity and the approval of "Getting loud and passionate" when singing.  This is something that other non "Natural" singers do not have and seek through Training and singing programs.  It is more about having "Permission" or the "Necessity of Training" to get loud and unlock the voice rather than sitting quietly in your room trying to make these sounds "Without" being heard and subject to ridicule.

 Another important point is being Passionate about singing itself or about the "Message" within the song. You almost have to have a Feeling that the message is important enough that other people need to hear it or that YOU the singer needs to "Let it out" so to speak. 

Another former member of this forum had as one of his Mantras to "Get out of your own way" when it comes to singing. Us "Non Natural" singers have apprehensions about being heard that hinders our progress and LOCKS the voice. I think those messages are within this next Video.

 

 

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