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Question regarding vowel modification

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gilad

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Felipe, can we clear up once and for all, what are your exact definitions of modal voice and falsetto voice?

Because, from what I know currently, falsetto is when the TA is totally uninvolved, it's all cover, no body vibration. The NCVS falsetto Geno linked. And modal voice is where much variation is possible including a shift to CT dominance in the higher register, which can take the singer all the way up well into to the 5th octave without needing to release the TA action completely.

Based on that, I really don't believe Gilad is not modal voice, at least not on that first clip. He is just shifting to CT dominance, has not entirely let go of the TA and can still blend back and forth with training even though there is an audible change as of now, desirable or not. So I think you're making him worry about changing an approach that is actually perfectly fine to continue with and build upon.

In order to power up what he is doing, he doesn't have to change it completely, all he has to do is increase TA activity within that CT dominant coordination and maybe eventually he can choose to allow it to go TA dominant, which does not require any kind of flip (when trained well enough), just the brain's permission to command a smooth shift in the muscle dominance. Thus the ability to take a light head voice and swell it into chest, in a contemporary style.

I don't have expert ears, haven't taught a wide variety of singers, etc. but based on how my own voice responds I'm quite positive that he's still in modal voice. Either that, or that it's impossible to tell without one-on-one analysis of the behavior of the voice in that coordination.

I do get what you mean. I think you're trying to make the point that being in M2 and increasing twang isn't a magic formula to construct a full voice note, it will just result in an M2 coordination with a higher closed quotient. It will never get to the point of sounding like full voice unless there is a sufficient amount of TA activity. But you don't have to change the entire configuration to increase TA activity because it's already present in the coordination of what Gilad is doing, he just has to increase it until it is dominant or near-dominant.

I just don't like the idea that you are suggesting the foundation of what he's doing is wrong. I don't believe it is, based on my own experience training the head voice, and I wouldn't want what you're saying to set Gilad back in his training. I think he is on the right track and should just work on incorporating more TA activity into his higher register if he is looking to achieve a production that sounds like full voice.

Haven't made any long posts like this on the forum in a while but I just really think this a big misunderstanding. I think gilad just has to make some tweaks to his coordination to get it to the sound he wants, not radically change it.

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Actually, I think Gilad was doing the right coordination. When you aren't used to it though, and if muscles get a little fatigued because it is the first time, it is quite easy to "lose" it the next day. I'm have my own issues with some coordinations that are inconsistent from day to day. Continual practice helps to build consistency.

In Gilad's case singing those high notes in isolation and then coming back and hitting those notes exactly the same way day after day would be hard for me. I would rather build off familiar coordinations from below and work up over a span of time.

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i think right and wrong coordination are wrong words to use when describing an A5. I believe you go for the sound you want and if its too hard to get when you push back off and if its to airy and heady get more intense. Its really not a matter of right or wrong unless your just killing yourself and cant sing when your done practicing it. Its about getting the sound you want and i dont think your gonna be singing to much up there unless youre starting some new type of music i dont know about.:)

But from experience with practice you will get this more consistent everyday you just need to keep at it like getting abs:D

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dan, your advice is so simple yet so friggin' true.......

That's only because I'm able to do these techniques, notes, scales etc. and I achieved this by practice and creating a sound without doing something harmful basically trying to be smart about it.

Also by not worrying about things like to much " TA or not enough CT ". Imagine your going to hit a baseball and I'm just telling you "more tricep less shoulder increase your bicep contraction" and some other stuff I read about It wouldn't help you to much but if I put you in the batters cage and started you off swinging against 20 mph pitches for a few weeks/ months and then I moved you to 30mph for weeks/months then I moved you to 40 mph for weeks/months then I moved you to 50 mph for weeks/ months. And I had you in the gym doing some weightlifting every other day starting you at 20lbs for weeks/ months then you went up to 30lbs for weeks/ months are you getting the picture. Now you are not only getting stronger but your technique is growing and after 2-3 years of doing this bingo your a better baseball hitter and after 6-8 years you are even better and so on

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Owen, modal voice is the voice you speak with. falsetto, the one you use to mimic a girl. Both can be normal, ,soft , heavy, shouted, agressive, airy, whatever you want. They just dont sound the same, because they are not the same, obviously.

"Adding TA" to the register, whatever that means, will result on the same register UNLESS you change from one to the other. Its this change that is important and it is what I am saying that its important to control and to not do, not the ammount of tension. The A5 is nice because it is a sure way of using falsetto, even if you "compress", whatever that means. If you are careful to bring it down, you will feel the change and by doing so, be able to do something about it. This needs to be done carefully however, the area to be explored is from E4 to C5, I advice the use of chromatic jumps to make sure you dont skip parts of this interval (most common problem with sirens without references).

This alone can only POINT the problem, letting you know it exists. To work it, breathing and emission adjustment on the lower range, then resonance work, lots of resonance work. Emission registration should not be a conscious concern to the singer, it can be easily controled with resonant adjustment, when trained.

Or did you forget what happened when you tried to use occlusion on your sirens, what do you think that was happening?

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"Adding TA" to the register, whatever that means, will result on the same register UNLESS you change from one to the other.

If you add enough TA on an M2 note that is within the range that can also be done in M1, the register will change. TA is highly coupled with breath compression, though, so there are many people that say that breath compression is the major thing that changes the register. But you are correct, it is not the amount of tension that changes the register, but the thickness of the folds. However, increasing thickness on a certain note (by increasing TA) whithout decreasing pitch, WILL result in higher tension.

The A5 is so high that it is just physiologically impossible to add enough TA for the folds to switch to M1. On the E4-C5 range it is doable, though.

A good excercise for that is messa di voce. Start something like an A4 on pianissimo and it will most likely be M2. Then swell it into forte and it will most likely change into M1.

However, if you do messa di voce starting from falsetto (no TA) you won't get a smooth dynamic transition because the moment when the TA kicks in will cause an instability. Thats why it is indeed helpful to differentiate between "head voice" (M2 + TA) and "falsetto" (M2, no TA).

But as written above, TA can in many cases be exchanged with "support" or "appoggio". Franco Tenelli for example would say that messa di voice only works if you start the pianissimo with appoggio support, others would say it's the TA. In fact it is both, there is quite some coupling between those two.

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thats funny we could all argue all these points back and forth. Its whatever works for you technically and term wise. I for instance can start a pure falsetto and swell into a full voice(messa di voce) with no instability. But i consider falsetto and head voice the same thing. I put it like this start with the cords open and gradually with volume shut them, just don't stop the air flow as many do and you won't end up with this instability.

but thats my way of looking at it because i didn't come up with m1 or m2 etc. Just like they didn't call n1 and n2. Whatever you want to call it.

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Love you Daniel. ^^

Never believed in those trendy terms. For me what is call falsetto or head voice on high notes is just "soft" notes and m14 overa mega hype full semi body voice is simply "full notes, as full as I want them to be"

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Felipe, does what you are saying about modal voice and falsetto go against these achievements of register blending I've heard plenty of other singers do?

-crescendo from soft and falsettoy to loud and chesty and decrescendo vice versa

-bridge from chest to head or vice versa

-smooth sirens spanning over 3 octaves

-sirens slowly gliding through the break with no audible tonal change

Etc.

I've heard many great vocal teachers and singers do these actions successfully and smoothly...do you think it's all in modal voice or is it just an illusion of smoothness between the two?

If you're saying the stuff i mentioned above needs to all be done in modal voice in order to keep the same tone quality, how are you able to listen to a file and know whether the lighter portion is pure falsetto versus a quieter, airer dynamic of modal voice?

OR

If you're saying the stuff i mentioned above requires a switch from modal to falsetto, what accounts for the ability of trained singers to do so with no abrupt audible change?

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Benny - do you agree then that Gilad's A5 has a little TA in it? And it sounds different that a Counter Tenor, which wouldn't use TA up there?

Bob - You're right. I believe its not easy in that range.

Daniel - Being able to grow from pure falsetto to a fuller voice without glitching is not easy. Did you work on that for a while? Robert can do it too. Steven Fraser also commented that it is not an easy thing to do.

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Benny - do you agree then that Gilad's A5 has a little TA in it? And it sounds different that a Counter Tenor, which wouldn't use TA up there?

In my ears, definitely. Classical singers would still call it falsetto, though, because it is M2. One of the most striking things is really the crescendo into forte. I remember an interview with the German countertenor Andreas Scholl where he said that countertenors basically can't swell into forte because they use a different coordination compared to "usual" opera singers. So countertenors have to build confidence in the fact that their voice will carry over the orchestra because of the overtones and not because of volume.

But Felipe is still right when he says that there is an additional coordination available for the lower note compared to the A5. The A5 can be done in falsetto or head, the lower note can be done in chest, too.

This is also an important thing in singing. Because the hardest notes are the ones that can be sung in three different coordinations (chest, head, falsetto). Ususally in the G4-D5 area there is a natural "break" in your voice where the chest (M1) coordination becomes unavailable. It becomes a little easier then because "pushing chest" is not a problem anymore at that point. For most guys (higher baritones) that break is in the B4 area, tenors have it higher, basses lower (for me it's A4 for example).

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It will only change if you are not fighting against it benny. And if you try to stay on the coordination mentioned here, while trying to "add TA" thats what you will do.

There is no reason to flip and then try to make the flip less flipped. If you define that as part of head coordination, you will have this kind of tension. And I am not against use of falsetto for training, just dont pretend it to be something else and its a great way to approach it.

Owen Robert Plant and Coverdale are two dudes that comes to the top of my mind who did awesome use of it. Do you hear the change on their singing, its that. Its not a bad thing by itself, but if you try to fight against the quality, try to stay on it and force it to sound the same, you will have one hell of a time on the middle voice, as well as repertoire limitations.

If you can control both on the other hand, life becomes easier. For males the control of M1 on the passage area is what defines modern technique and what will be required of you on most of the time.

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Wow, a lot of good posts here... Sorry Ive been absent, pounding hard on launching some new systems for 2014 and working on updates to "Pillars"... its really getting cool now, down to the training routines where the rubber to the road meet... but anyways...

Gilad, for starters, as my student, you are welcome to send me your files for a quick listen...

The phonation sample you shared is characterized by , if the assumption is that you want to sound more full,.. too much respiration through the glottis... its pretty much falsetto mode The phonation also lacks the intrinsic musculature you need to get any 'connectivity' in this region of your voice.. therefore, it lacks vocal fold compression (no twang here) and it lacks a dampened larynx which results in the inability to tune the formant properly... which results in the inability to release a sound color that is more full. This phonation sample simply lacks the intrinsic musculature and formant tuning required to make your "head voice" notes come alive... pretty basic stuff.

I RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING SOLUTION:

1. Vowel Modification:

Remember, your not singing the English language here... so stop trying to use vowels that exist in a speaking language known as English. These are singing vowels, not speaking vowel Gilad. Depending on the frequency, (the higher the frequency, the greater the necessity to modify to singing vowels), this English lyric, "time" needs to be modified to "Tuh-eem", where the "-eem" is a dipthong that exists in about 2% of the timeline that you sustain that note.

The English language word, "Time" modifies to "Tuh-eem" when singing a B4... generally speaking.

2. Train Your TVS Specialized Onsets to Build Head Voice Musculature:

a. Start with Wind & Release Onsets to calibrate your respiration pressure and vocal fold compression. Generally speaking, less contraction of the 'twanger' for vocal fold closure and more closure with Bernoulli physics in the glottis.

5 W&R Onsets on "Huh, huh, huh, huh, huh" with good activation of the obliques.

Then...

b. After balancing your respiration and releasing the constrictors, move to onsets that engage the musculature more.

1-3 Quack & Release Onsets to engage the vocal fold compression in balance with your new respiration pressure.

(See the Q&R Onset training work flow in your copy of "The Four Pillars of Singing").

Then...

c. 1-3 Dampen & Release Onsets to add your respiration and fold closure to a dampened larynx.

(See the D&R Onset training notes in your copy of "The Four Pillars of Singing").

Then...

d. Dampen & Release onset followed by a descending melodic 5th siren to bridge the configuration.

Media to Explain & Demonstrate (Filmed today for you guys):

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It will only change if you are not fighting against it benny. And if you try to stay on the coordination mentioned here, while trying to "add TA" thats what you will do.

There is no reason to flip and then try to make the flip less flipped. If you define that as part of head coordination, you will have this kind of tension. And I am not against use of falsetto for training, just dont pretend it to be something else and its a great way to approach it.

Owen Robert Plant and Coverdale are two dudes that comes to the top of my mind who did awesome use of it. Do you hear the change on their singing, its that. Its not a bad thing by itself, but if you try to fight against the quality, try to stay on it and force it to sound the same, you will have one hell of a time on the middle voice, as well as repertoire limitations.

If you can control both on the other hand, life becomes easier. For males the control of M1 on the passage area is what defines modern technique and what will be required of you on most of the time.

Okay, so then how can we train "the control of M1 on the passage area" in a way that doesn't take years to get past F4 without strain?

That's kind of what it comes down to. And Robert Plant and Coverdale do sound fairly chesty up there, why do you think? Do you think they just allowed their M2 to be what it is, and sound like a girl? No, they added some musculature to make it sound like something you can use in a rock band. What's wrong with that?

Sure it sounds different, but who cares, if it sounds good?

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you don't sing m2(falsetto) in songs or music unless you are a women or want to sound like prince. that chesty sound is chest resonance no way around it but to train it. I'm sorry if i'm not using the fancy terminology but i will if you need me to but why confuse anyone more.:) modifying the vowel will bring in more head "resonance" not actual falsetto.

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listen to me owen, please.

scales, support exercises, all this stuff really does the trick...there is no short cut.

I know. I'm doing that stuff. And of course, actually singing.

Right now I'm basically just trying to figure out what the heck Felipe is talking about, because it doesn't make sense according to the way I'm training, but I know he knows a lot about the voice so I also want to get a better idea of his approach.

I tend to be of the belief that all great singers are basically doing the same things fundamentally, and sometimes the communication/terminology differences are the issue.

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I know. I'm doing that stuff. And of course, actually singing.

Right now I'm basically just trying to figure out what the heck Felipe is talking about, because it doesn't make sense according to the way I'm training, but I know he knows a lot about the voice so I also want to get a better idea of his approach.

I tend to be of the belief that all great singers are basically doing the same things fundamentally, and sometimes the communication/terminology differences are the issue.

Felipe is saying stay in m1 chest voice through the passagio and change the vowel slightly if you have to and in time it will get easier, do not flip and think the flip is gonna get fuller it's not

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Wow, a lot of good posts here... Sorry Ive been absent, pounding hard on launching some new systems for 2014 and working on updates to "Pillars"... its really getting cool now, down to the training routines where the rubber to the road meet... but anyways...

Gilad, for starters, as my student, you are welcome to send me your files for a quick listen...

The phonation sample you shared is characterized by , if the assumption is that you want to sound more full,.. too much respiration through the glottis... its pretty much falsetto mode The phonation also lacks the intrinsic musculature you need to get any 'connectivity' in this region of your voice.. therefore, it lacks vocal fold compression (no twang here) and it lacks a dampened larynx which results in the inability to tune the formant properly... which results in the inability to release a sound color that is more full. This phonation sample simply lacks the intrinsic musculature and formant tuning required to make your "head voice" notes come alive... pretty basic stuff.

I RECOMMEND THE FOLLOWING SOLUTION:

1. Vowel Modification:

Remember, your not singing the English language here... so stop trying to use vowels that exist in a speaking language known as English. These are singing vowels, not speaking vowel Gilad. Depending on the frequency, (the higher the frequency, the greater the necessity to modify to singing vowels), this English lyric, "time" needs to be modified to "Tuh-eem", where the "-eem" is a dipthong that exists in about 2% of the timeline that you sustain that note.

The English language word, "Time" modifies to "Tuh-eem" when singing a B4... generally speaking.

2. Train Your TVS Specialized Onsets to Build Head Voice Musculature:

a. Start with Wind & Release Onsets to calibrate your respiration pressure and vocal fold compression. Generally speaking, less contraction of the 'twanger' for vocal fold closure and more closure with Bernoulli physics in the glottis.

5 W&R Onsets on "Huh, huh, huh, huh, huh" with good activation of the obliques.

Then...

b. After balancing your respiration and releasing the constrictors, move to onsets that engage the musculature more.

1-3 Quack & Release Onsets to engage the vocal fold compression in balance with your new respiration pressure.

(See the Q&R Onset training work flow in your copy of "The Four Pillars of Singing").

Then...

c. 1-3 Dampen & Release Onsets to add your respiration and fold closure to a dampened larynx.

(See the D&R Onset training notes in your copy of "The Four Pillars of Singing").

Then...

d. Dampen & Release onset followed by a descending melodic 5th siren to bridge the configuration.

Media to Explain & Demonstrate (Filmed today for you guys):

Hey Rob!!

I really appreciate the dedicated video, and the thorough explanation. It really shows your concern, and it means a lot to me. I am going to try and work on those onsets, and try to get the bigger tone although I think it is the correct vowel modification that I am missing, and you explained it thoroughly. Unfortunately, when I came back to the A5, It just failed to happen again. Even after warming up.. I guess I just need to do a whole day recording again and see if that helps as that is what I was doing the day I vocalised that a5, and it felt really easy.

Falsetto, or not falsetto, I dont think there is another way of doing it.

Once again thanks for your support Rob!

Guys: Thank you very much for all the responses. I must be honest with you all and tell you that I am sooo confused from all the terms you use... Why cant we just sing? :)

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Guys: Thank you very much for all the responses. I must be honest with you all and tell you that I am sooo confused from all the terms you use... Why cant we just sing? :)

We can, it's when we write down how we sing it gets hard to understand :)

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