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"Bottom-Up" Training, Should It Be Considered? (Techniques For Belting)

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Daniel, do a take on a maiden song just to lay this discussion to rest. :D

Let me help you with persuassion. (lil psychology)

Meh i bet Daniel cant do it, otherwise he would have done it by now.

XD :P

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Thanks for the shout out Ken, I appreciate you sharing your sincere feelings about this. It is a message I keep trying hard to "shout" into this noisy market... students have to be really careful about this. The "bottom-up", chest pulling ideas have validity, it is just that... you have to approach it in a careful process and be sensitive to your students capabilities, especially beginners. Anyways... really glad to hear that "Pillars" is helping you. This is precisely why I made the video below... so that people like Ken could gain some more insights on the risks of just doing head long assaults into a world of constriction.

How long have you had "4Pillars"? What have you found to be the most helpful about it?

bro, this is a really good honest video! Could not have said it better
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You guys are funny... whether Daniel can sing "The Trooper" or not proves nothing related to this discussion. What would that prove, other then, Daniel can sing "The Trooper"? It doesn't address Bob's original premise, nor does it prove that a "top-down" approach is preferred. 

 

Stop looking for an absolute... all voices are different... just train both approaches. When you have the option to train both approaches, why would you even bother to fight for one or the other?

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You guys are funny... whether Daniel can sing "The Trooper" or not proves nothing related to this discussion. What would that prove, other then, Daniel can sing "The Trooper"? It doesn't address Bob's original premise, nor does it prove that a "top-down" approach is preferred.

Stop looking for an absolute... all voices are different... just train both approaches. When you have the option to train both approaches, why would you even bother to fight for one or the other?

Its more of a joke Then an actual request. And it was more oriented toward the fact that top-down aproach or head voice development can be as boomy and full as belting.

I was only belting. Head voice? What head voice? But now i learned different. And now i know that head voice isnt a synonym for weak breathy falsetto or wipmy schreechy sound. I grew fond of top down training and i actually feel better. I never get pain in throat anymore. I dont have to stop my training session after 5 min of singing or vocalising. benefits are countless.

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I thought Michael Jackson was a supernatural chest-puller... after some very thorough analysis I realize that he secretly switches around F#! He tricked us all, the tone is extreme consistent throughout registers, HEE-HEE.

 

 

This is SUPER interesting!

 

I always thought he pulled chest extremely well.

 

I'm gonna go through and imitate this a see what I can come up with, already have the vibrato down.

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It doesn't address Bob's original premise, nor does it prove that a "top-down" approach is preferred.

You're right. I was baiting Daniel to give it a go anyway, I'd love to hear it.

When you have the option to train both approaches, why would you even bother to fight for one or the other?

Indeed. When you have the option to be jack of all, why would you even bother to be master of one? ;)

I'm joking. I'm all for versatility.

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Its really about understanding what was meant by "top down approach".  What this means is when you have a singer with problems in the passagio you go above the passagio and work the feeling and position of the higher notes down into the passagio,which feels very uncomfortable for some at first. From there it gets better and better through practice.

 

Yes I have done Maiden before in MetalShop not one of my favs but if you Skype me ill sing whatever.. because thats what I do 'sing" :)  :)

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What this means is when you have a singer with problems in the passagio you go above the passagio and work the feeling and position of the higher notes down into the passagio,which feels very uncomfortable for some at first. From there it gets better and better through practice.

This is something to really take in and make into a mantra. Brett Manning called it "pulling the headvoice down" and he advocated focusing on having the sensation of headvoice in notes that are usually sung in chestvoice (ie to soften and "sweeten" the chestvoice). I'd imagine that, to most, this configuration is much harder than just belting out glottal attacky chest.

Yes I have done Maiden before in MetalShop not one of my favs but if you Skype me ill sing whatever.. because thats what I do 'sing" :):)

Haha, awesome, maybe I'll do that. I've actually got a couple of maiden songs I'd like to nail.
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No, I don't believe that's true. Belting is a skill in and of itself. You can run your voice up without belting or yelling with the right choice of throat shape (vowel).

 

Belting isn't always bottom up either.  You can belt a high note right out of the gate. These are the belts where you really have to watch you don't blow through things and crack.

 

Again, this post was a "what if" not "we must" or "we should."

 

I wanted to know your thoughts on the subject.

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Good points Bob... I refer to my original response.  A small minority of people will kinda be able to figure it out, the majority of people will never figure it out and will only get sucked into a tar baby, venus fly trap of no return constricting.

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No, I don't believe that's true. Belting is a skill in and of itself. You can run your voice up without belting or yelling with the right choice of throat shape (vowel).

 

Belting isn't always bottom up either.  You can belt a high note right out of the gate. These are the belts where you really have to watch you don't blow through things and crack.

 

Again, this post was a "what if" not "we must" or "we should."

 

I wanted to know your thoughts on the subject.

 

For the most part I agree.  I think there is an important discrepancy worth noting though to back up my initial point of there being a fine line.  For an experienced singer, what you say is definitely sensible and those who develop their fundamentals usually can move on to belting as a skill as you put it.  But for a complete beginner to hear this stuff, what they would inevitably be doing when trying to approach belting technique is yelling/shouting.  So in that respect there is a fine line that needs to be more clearly drawn to illustrate to someone first starting out what is actually healthy belting and what is just straining/shouting/yelling/etc.  (i.e. get a vocal teacherand start off with the proper knowledge from the beginning) This is just my opinion though and I am struggling with this very issue myself so obviously I have much to learn haha.

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I was thinking of this and I'd love to hear your opinions, especially from the voice teachers.

 

Let's say a singer tried an experiment.

 

He committed to practicing every day where he has to run the voice up his range and he had to avoid any kind of bridging, no letting go into falsetto, no transitioning...nothing... just had to run the full voice up all through just sheer will and determination.

 

So any scale, any siren any voice exercise had to be done in full voice.  No use of any heady placement, just pull up chest higher and higher.....

 

I wonder,,,,,Would the voice eventually find it's way all the up the range?

 

Would you and your voice figure out the way up through the "passaggio" and above?

 

Would the development in this way open up the voice and allow it to release?

 

I mean it's not like anyone's thinking of this or trying it, but I just wonder what the voice might end up doing in terms of capability and development.

 

We always teach and read how the chest voice ends and now you have to nowhere to go......how you get stuck....or how you need to transition.......

 

Historically speaking, did the teachers or singers of years gone by ever explore this?  So let's say you just chest pulled for a few months, where would the voice end up?

 

Would it be damaged?

Would it be unbalanced?

 

Who's to say......

 

(And yes.....I'm a little crazy I guess..lol)

 

What's wrong with head voice? There are many places you can go. I never understood how all some people want to do is practice one part of their voice. You have an entire voice to work with and make amazing sounds with.

 

I see what you're trying to say though. I think time should be put in to work on every part of the voice equally.

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Eh... Calling out Dan to sing? For real...?

I knew someone might take it as a callout, wasn't expecting it to be you. I thought the smiley kind of made it clear it was a joke, and the reason I picked Dan is that I recall him being the first in every thread to advocate what TVS would call "top-down."

So whoosaa.

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Right?  That is what I was thinking... Isn't Bob the "top-down Frissell" guy? 

 

lol! this proves that sometimes bottom-up is the answer and sometimes top-down is the right approach. any program or method that does not address both... well , I am going to stay positive and say thank goodness for TVS ;) next time someone recommends only top-down or only bottom-up I hope they stop and think. they could be harming people's voices by recommending them to do things certain ways when they require a combination of both. I am not knocking bottom-up or top-down methods but I have personally experience that one week it feels like I need more bottom-up and some weeks I need more top-down!

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Hey Jack... you get it.  That's right, you don't have to make a choice and whether its from the top or from the bottom, is complete based on what your needs, attractor states and what your working on. Way to go... how is your training coming along?

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Its never one or the other. Esspecially in art like singing. Do both. Mix Nd match. The result can only be positive as you gain versatility. Also 80% of your proggress will be in first few years. The rest is refinement. You have plenty of time ro learn all aspects and use it the best you can.

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