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"Bottom-Up" Training, Should It Be Considered? (Techniques For Belting)

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Its never one or the other. Esspecially in art like singing. Do both. Mix Nd match. The result can only be positive as you gain versatility. Also 80% of your proggress will be in first few years. The rest is refinement. You have plenty of time ro learn all aspects and use it the best you can.

One time, I mixed and matched. I showed up to work and they asked, "did you dress yourself in the dark?" 

 

Yes, and evidently, it showed.

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One time, I mixed and matched. I showed up to work and they asked, "did you dress yourself in the dark?"

Yes, and evidently, it showed.

Thats called being fearless and stylish

I respect that :)

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Its really about understanding what was meant by "top down approach".  What this means is when you have a singer with problems in the passagio you can above the passagio and work the feeling and position of the higher notes down into the passagio,which feels very uncomfortable for some at first. From there it gets better and better through practice.

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In my opinion, it's about starting from "heavy to light" (bottom-up) or "light to heavy" (up-bottom). It depends on the singers preference. For instance I was a comfort "heavy" (bottom) singer, so I used that as a starting point, and tweaked that into a more "light" (up) approach.

 

And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note.

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Martin,

 

Wouldnt using a higher area in pitch help someone that is too "heavy handed" learn how to produce a lighter quality? A higher pitch makes the effort to sustain "heavy phonation" much higher, if you use favorable vowel, like "Uh" around A4/B4 for example... Then you can bring it down and feel how its like on the area where the "heavy hand" tends to dominate.

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Martin,

 

Wouldnt using a higher area in pitch help someone that is too "heavy handed" learn how to produce a lighter quality?

 

Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up.

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Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up.

I used to be like this. I still can't hit my highest note with as much mass as my low mids... Unless I equalize by using the highest note as the volume cap.

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Its really about understanding what was meant by "top down approach".  What this means is when you have a singer with problems in the passagio you can above the passagio and work the feeling and position of the higher notes down into the passagio,which feels very uncomfortable for some at first. From there it gets better and better through practice.

 

 

Yes... generally speaking... helping the student to "feel" M2 positions, the resonance, the feeling of released constriction... "freedom"... THEN, work to build the intrinsic anchoring INSIDE the M2 position.  This is precisely what several of the TVS onsets are used for. In fact, that is how they were developed... I had need to help people that could get into a heady, M2 position... to then build "from the inside"... for TVS guys that would be; Q&R, M&R & C&R onsets... although all the onsets can help with this... these three have work flows, so they are good for more precision and coordination work.

 

 

Wouldn't using a higher area in pitch help someone that is too "heavy handed" learn how to produce a lighter quality? A higher pitch makes the effort to sustain "heavy phonation" much higher, if you use favorable vowel, like "Uh" around A4/B4 for example... Then you can bring it down and feel how its like on the area where the "heavy hand" tends to dominate.

 

Yes... that would be the general approach that an intuitive voice coach would use. 

 

 

 

And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note.

 

Really? An configuring straight into an onset is a different coordination then configuring as you are moving up/down to the destination note. The elements of the phonation package that all need to be calibrated, tuned and balanced, need to be able to do all that... on the move, dynamically as the voice moves through the change of frequency... Frequency being the "constant" in all this... the one thing that never changes that we all have to negotiate and adhere to. Stated another way, ... as the phonation package moves through changes of frequency, they must all calibrate, tune and balance dynamically relevant to the frequency, at any given moment in time. 

 

The "arrow of time" & "frequency" are "constants" that cannot be changed... we are all slaves to them... just like the tax man... 

 

 

 

Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up.

 

... but if the tense up.. or have any other problem, is it not the responsibility of the coach or program, etc... to offer solutions to work on that? I would look at trying different onsets and/or vowels to trouble-shoot... as well as chilling out the acoustic mass... as I think Martin has done a good job of reminding us in past discussions... the physics of formants and the acoustics of singing HAVE to account for the "acoustic overload" or what I like to call, "acoustic mass", otherwise you don't get a tuned formant.. you an imbalance of the formant energy.

 

 

 

Unless I equalize by using the highest note as the volume cap.

 

Khassera, I think I understand what you mean... in a sense, that does work because, generally speaking... and this is a broad statement, but... as you go higher in frequency, the acoustic mass should be lightened... especially for students... and especially if the vowels are narrowed... I have a quote in my book that Ive used for years, "the higher the frequency, the lighter the mass"... that is not always true... but its a good mantra to remember... 

 

But someone like Daniel, Felipe or myself can sing higher frequencies and still keep or add acoustic mass to it... but that takes gobs of practice and strength building... and... really dialing in your vowels so you can stop hitting high notes, and start amplifying formants. 

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Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up.

 

That's true, but the issues are still directly related, although I understand what you meant with this:

 

And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note.

 

I believe its equaly important to work on transposing that control over other pitch areas and how it feels like to control it with different focus:

 

- Fixed intensity (varying pitch and quality); passaggio

- Fixed pitch (what you mentioned, varying intensity and quality); mesa di voce

- Fixed quality (varying pitch and intensity); torta di cioccolata

 

 

Which one to do first, the easier one I guess...

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That's true, but the issues are still directly related, although I understand what you meant with this:

 

And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note.

 

I believe its equaly important to work on transposing that control over other pitch areas and how it feels like to control it with different focus:

 

- Fixed intensity (varying pitch and quality); passaggio

- Fixed pitch (what you mentioned, varying intensity and quality); mesa di voce

- Fixed quality (varying pitch and intensity); torta di cioccolata

 

 

Which one to do first, the easier one I guess...

 

If I'm not mistaken... what you just prescribed Felipe was... train onsets... basically... 

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- Fixed quality (varying pitch and intensity); torta di cioccolata

 

 

Pls edit your post and remove the choccolate cake. I cant remember anything else when i read that xD

 

On Topic:

 

This is essentially what Pillars is all about. And it works. This is probably the thing that made my proggress hasten alot.

 

Also this really is core to good singing technique. Doing that as diligently as you can will make you a better singer in no time.

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Pls edit your post and remove the choccolate cake. I cant remember anything else when i read that xD

 

On Topic:

 

This is essentially what Pillars is all about. And it works. This is probably the thing that made my proggress hasten alot.

 

Also this really is core to good singing technique. Doing that as diligently as you can will make you a better singer in no time.

 

Eat your Wheaties, train your onsets...Felipe said it was good for you!   ;) ... Learn to calibrate, balance and tune every note for "pitch, intensity, vowel"... and actually more... there are 7 technical considerations or components to be concerned about in the "Onset Package"... Although I wouldn't say this is "all" TVS is about, but it is a part of it... 

 

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Eat your Wheaties, train your onsets...Felipe said it was good for you!   ;) ... Learn to calibrate, balance and tune every note for "pitch, intensity, vowel"... and actually more... there are 7 technical considerations or components to be concerned about in the "Onset Package"... Although I wouldn't say this is "all" TVS is about, but it is a part of it... 

 

 

 

Yea i didnt mean all. A big Part and an important part :)

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@ Felipe,  Honestly I don't understand your point entirely, maybe kinda ...  You can train a "top-down" approach if what "dimension" is fixed?  Acoustic Mass / Intensity?  On a practical perspective, to get "top-down", just relax or "bleed" (respiration) the glottis... and I'm just teasing you above... seeing if you have had your coffee yet this morning...

 

@ Martin... Lessen the adduction for what... for M2? If you did that, yes.. you would eventually phonate an M2 or be oriented for a "top-down" approach. 

 

I think sometimes we under-estimate how important of a factor the glottal compression is. It influences amplification, engagement of other muscles, different sound colors for artistic expression and if you are a good coach... you will know how to use different levels of glottal compression, to trouble-shoot problems with your students.  One of the elements that always exists in an onset is glottal compression... how that compression is being engaged, helps define the onset... 

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@ Martin... Lessen the adduction for what... for M2? If you did that, yes.. you would eventually phonate an M2 or be oriented for a "top-down" approach. 

 

No, lessen the adduction in M1. Normally, M2 happens around A4 > for males.

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No, lessen the adduction in M1. Normally, M2 happens around A4 > for males.

I had the impression that the normal 'break' at around E4 represented the transition from M1 to M2, at least in untrained men.

 

I mean this really as a question, not a statement, still just trying to get my head around the concepts.

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I had the impression that the normal 'break' at around E4 represented the transition from M1 to M2, at least in untrained men.

 

I mean this really as a question, not a statement, still just trying to get my head around the concepts.

It depends very much on the singer at what sounds that particular singer does and intend to do(approach). Also what Martin implies is that M2 usually is more dominant and efficient abit higher up in the range, for instance hitting a E4 in m2 in a convincing manner If the goal is a full chesty sound is very hard. Hitting a A4-B4 in a convincing manner in m2 is alot easyer because of how the mechanism work.

So most of these breaks are referencepoints and not Set in stone, they Will change in regards to what sound we aim to do :)

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