ronws Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Its never one or the other. Esspecially in art like singing. Do both. Mix Nd match. The result can only be positive as you gain versatility. Also 80% of your proggress will be in first few years. The rest is refinement. You have plenty of time ro learn all aspects and use it the best you can. One time, I mixed and matched. I showed up to work and they asked, "did you dress yourself in the dark?" Yes, and evidently, it showed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvis Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 One time, I mixed and matched. I showed up to work and they asked, "did you dress yourself in the dark?" Yes, and evidently, it showed. Thats called being fearless and stylish I respect that :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted April 14, 2015 Author Share Posted April 14, 2015 Guys, I agree. It was just a post to get your thoughts. To have us all (myself included) thinking out of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Well, let's think then. What do we achieve by "top-down"? What is a "top-down approach" to begin with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielformica Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Its really about understanding what was meant by "top down approach". What this means is when you have a singer with problems in the passagio you can above the passagio and work the feeling and position of the higher notes down into the passagio,which feels very uncomfortable for some at first. From there it gets better and better through practice. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 In my opinion, it's about starting from "heavy to light" (bottom-up) or "light to heavy" (up-bottom). It depends on the singers preference. For instance I was a comfort "heavy" (bottom) singer, so I used that as a starting point, and tweaked that into a more "light" (up) approach. And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Martin, Wouldnt using a higher area in pitch help someone that is too "heavy handed" learn how to produce a lighter quality? A higher pitch makes the effort to sustain "heavy phonation" much higher, if you use favorable vowel, like "Uh" around A4/B4 for example... Then you can bring it down and feel how its like on the area where the "heavy hand" tends to dominate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Martin, Wouldnt using a higher area in pitch help someone that is too "heavy handed" learn how to produce a lighter quality? Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khassera Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up. I used to be like this. I still can't hit my highest note with as much mass as my low mids... Unless I equalize by using the highest note as the volume cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted April 14, 2015 Administrator Share Posted April 14, 2015 Its really about understanding what was meant by "top down approach". What this means is when you have a singer with problems in the passagio you can above the passagio and work the feeling and position of the higher notes down into the passagio,which feels very uncomfortable for some at first. From there it gets better and better through practice. Yes... generally speaking... helping the student to "feel" M2 positions, the resonance, the feeling of released constriction... "freedom"... THEN, work to build the intrinsic anchoring INSIDE the M2 position. This is precisely what several of the TVS onsets are used for. In fact, that is how they were developed... I had need to help people that could get into a heady, M2 position... to then build "from the inside"... for TVS guys that would be; Q&R, M&R & C&R onsets... although all the onsets can help with this... these three have work flows, so they are good for more precision and coordination work. Wouldn't using a higher area in pitch help someone that is too "heavy handed" learn how to produce a lighter quality? A higher pitch makes the effort to sustain "heavy phonation" much higher, if you use favorable vowel, like "Uh" around A4/B4 for example... Then you can bring it down and feel how its like on the area where the "heavy hand" tends to dominate. Yes... that would be the general approach that an intuitive voice coach would use. And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note. Really? An configuring straight into an onset is a different coordination then configuring as you are moving up/down to the destination note. The elements of the phonation package that all need to be calibrated, tuned and balanced, need to be able to do all that... on the move, dynamically as the voice moves through the change of frequency... Frequency being the "constant" in all this... the one thing that never changes that we all have to negotiate and adhere to. Stated another way, ... as the phonation package moves through changes of frequency, they must all calibrate, tune and balance dynamically relevant to the frequency, at any given moment in time. The "arrow of time" & "frequency" are "constants" that cannot be changed... we are all slaves to them... just like the tax man... Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up. ... but if the tense up.. or have any other problem, is it not the responsibility of the coach or program, etc... to offer solutions to work on that? I would look at trying different onsets and/or vowels to trouble-shoot... as well as chilling out the acoustic mass... as I think Martin has done a good job of reminding us in past discussions... the physics of formants and the acoustics of singing HAVE to account for the "acoustic overload" or what I like to call, "acoustic mass", otherwise you don't get a tuned formant.. you an imbalance of the formant energy. Unless I equalize by using the highest note as the volume cap. Khassera, I think I understand what you mean... in a sense, that does work because, generally speaking... and this is a broad statement, but... as you go higher in frequency, the acoustic mass should be lightened... especially for students... and especially if the vowels are narrowed... I have a quote in my book that Ive used for years, "the higher the frequency, the lighter the mass"... that is not always true... but its a good mantra to remember... But someone like Daniel, Felipe or myself can sing higher frequencies and still keep or add acoustic mass to it... but that takes gobs of practice and strength building... and... really dialing in your vowels so you can stop hitting high notes, and start amplifying formants. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 "Jump back, What's that sound? Here she comes full blast and top down. Hot shoes burning down the avenue. Got an on-ramp coming through my bedroom ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Definitely, but then again, they might not be able to go into that range and then they just tense up. That's true, but the issues are still directly related, although I understand what you meant with this: And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note. I believe its equaly important to work on transposing that control over other pitch areas and how it feels like to control it with different focus: - Fixed intensity (varying pitch and quality); passaggio - Fixed pitch (what you mentioned, varying intensity and quality); mesa di voce - Fixed quality (varying pitch and intensity); torta di cioccolata Which one to do first, the easier one I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khassera Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 torta di cioccolata Dude, that sounds delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted April 15, 2015 Administrator Share Posted April 15, 2015 That's true, but the issues are still directly related, although I understand what you meant with this: And importantly this is not about a scale. It's about how you approach a note, a single note. I believe its equaly important to work on transposing that control over other pitch areas and how it feels like to control it with different focus: - Fixed intensity (varying pitch and quality); passaggio - Fixed pitch (what you mentioned, varying intensity and quality); mesa di voce - Fixed quality (varying pitch and intensity); torta di cioccolata Which one to do first, the easier one I guess... If I'm not mistaken... what you just prescribed Felipe was... train onsets... basically... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvis Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 - Fixed quality (varying pitch and intensity); torta di cioccolata Pls edit your post and remove the choccolate cake. I cant remember anything else when i read that xD On Topic: This is essentially what Pillars is all about. And it works. This is probably the thing that made my proggress hasten alot. Also this really is core to good singing technique. Doing that as diligently as you can will make you a better singer in no time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted April 15, 2015 Administrator Share Posted April 15, 2015 Pls edit your post and remove the choccolate cake. I cant remember anything else when i read that xD On Topic: This is essentially what Pillars is all about. And it works. This is probably the thing that made my proggress hasten alot. Also this really is core to good singing technique. Doing that as diligently as you can will make you a better singer in no time. Eat your Wheaties, train your onsets...Felipe said it was good for you! ... Learn to calibrate, balance and tune every note for "pitch, intensity, vowel"... and actually more... there are 7 technical considerations or components to be concerned about in the "Onset Package"... Although I wouldn't say this is "all" TVS is about, but it is a part of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 @rob I see! What I said is in the sense that the issue at hand cant just be treated as top down or bottom up, because there are "3 dimensions" on it. It can only be "top-down" after fixing one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 @Felipe & Robert Of course you're both right that you have to tune the coordination in relation to pitch. However, my point was, that the main idea is to lessen the adduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvis Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Eat your Wheaties, train your onsets...Felipe said it was good for you! ... Learn to calibrate, balance and tune every note for "pitch, intensity, vowel"... and actually more... there are 7 technical considerations or components to be concerned about in the "Onset Package"... Although I wouldn't say this is "all" TVS is about, but it is a part of it... Yea i didnt mean all. A big Part and an important part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted April 15, 2015 Administrator Share Posted April 15, 2015 @ Felipe, Honestly I don't understand your point entirely, maybe kinda ... You can train a "top-down" approach if what "dimension" is fixed? Acoustic Mass / Intensity? On a practical perspective, to get "top-down", just relax or "bleed" (respiration) the glottis... and I'm just teasing you above... seeing if you have had your coffee yet this morning... @ Martin... Lessen the adduction for what... for M2? If you did that, yes.. you would eventually phonate an M2 or be oriented for a "top-down" approach. I think sometimes we under-estimate how important of a factor the glottal compression is. It influences amplification, engagement of other muscles, different sound colors for artistic expression and if you are a good coach... you will know how to use different levels of glottal compression, to trouble-shoot problems with your students. One of the elements that always exists in an onset is glottal compression... how that compression is being engaged, helps define the onset... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 @ Martin... Lessen the adduction for what... for M2? If you did that, yes.. you would eventually phonate an M2 or be oriented for a "top-down" approach. No, lessen the adduction in M1. Normally, M2 happens around A4 > for males. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted April 15, 2015 Author Share Posted April 15, 2015 Martin, but this changes with volume, correct? We could choose to postpone the change to M2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 10 Bucks on that this thread Will turn into everyone saying the same thing with diffrent terms, but noone cares to admit it anyone betting against me? Ronws? Hehe 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carp Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 No, lessen the adduction in M1. Normally, M2 happens around A4 > for males. I had the impression that the normal 'break' at around E4 represented the transition from M1 to M2, at least in untrained men. I mean this really as a question, not a statement, still just trying to get my head around the concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jens Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I had the impression that the normal 'break' at around E4 represented the transition from M1 to M2, at least in untrained men. I mean this really as a question, not a statement, still just trying to get my head around the concepts. It depends very much on the singer at what sounds that particular singer does and intend to do(approach). Also what Martin implies is that M2 usually is more dominant and efficient abit higher up in the range, for instance hitting a E4 in m2 in a convincing manner If the goal is a full chesty sound is very hard. Hitting a A4-B4 in a convincing manner in m2 is alot easyer because of how the mechanism work. So most of these breaks are referencepoints and not Set in stone, they Will change in regards to what sound we aim to do 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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