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Silent Lucidity - Queensryche - cover for review

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Thank you, again. My biggest takeaway from this first submission has been that I need to pay much closer attention to communicating the intent of the lyrics. I think I'm pre-occupied with "sounding right", or "cool", or "powerful", as the expense of conveying the lyric appropriately. I didn't do that well at all here.

Evidently, thou has committed sacrilege against Saint Tate. Into the lake of fire with you! Heresy, heresy!

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Again, I liked it as an artistic endeavor. Is it a world class rendition on this song? Maybe not. You have a good voice and could conceivably shine well on other songs. I don't think my voice is good on every song, even ones I enjoy singing. I was working on a cover of "Jaded" by Aerosmith. I really like that song but I just don't sound like Steven and so I may never share that one.

But I could imagine you singing in public, yes, to applause, even.

 

Thank you so much Ronws. I had a rough day yesterday after reading Kevin's comments, but I took them all to heart and had a great night training and singing. I didn't mention this, but in posting this song I'm taking a step toward over-coming a life-long fear of being heard singing by others. I'm now on the wrong side of 50 and feeling a "now or never" thing and am working hard to grow my voice to it's fullest.

As a student, I'm coming from the place of singing WAY too hard, pushing too hard, trying to "pull chest" to the ceiling and so forth. I'm sure that strain can be heard in this performance. So the past 2.5 years of training have been all about backing that down. My false folds used to slam shut around Eb4 and each half-step after that was brutal to "push" through. I'm maybe half-way to where I care to be and I've only in the past couple months found how to navigate the passage while keep the false folds retracted. It's been amazing, and I'm not yet used to singing in this way, and when I sing a song I've sang for a long time, the old habits are more likely to jump in.

Over the coming weeks I'll submit a few songs from other artists and I'll make a better attempt to stay close to the original and to communicate the lyric better. Thanks again.

 

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Hi Joe, I have listened to your track and read the comments by our forum members. Lots of great advice here and I can tell you from my band experience etc when you are doing any cover material from ICONIC singers lol people always expect it to sound just like the original artist. In some cases that may be kind of possible. There are certain singers with timbers and basic range similarities that make it easier to sing very close to the original artist. I agree with Roberts posts about striving and improving. There are songs I spent many years building the basic instrument up to a point where the execution was finally right. If you look through past pages I have many songs on here from very iconic singers and you can see on some I succeed more than others but I am always trying to improve as a vocalist and that shows in my own Original material maybe better than singing covers although even there I can see improvement on songs I tried to sing as a newbie etc. Never be discouraged, there was very little in my early singing that would have made other people think I should stick with it haha.

Thank you, Musikman. One of the reasons I've been altering the melodies and mood of the cover songs I sing is to use them to practice creating "original" melodies, so to speak, and infusing the song with my own personality as a type of preparation, or transition, to eventually creating original music. I also work on originals, but I struggle with lyrics and timidity associated with sharing. Melodies come easy. I also train this way in an attempt to develop my own sound and style (i.e. avoiding any type of imitation of the original).

And, yes, I forgot how much people compare the covers to the original iconic artist. To me, an at-home singer, these songs are to have fun with. You should hear me butcher John Denver, who is one of my favorite artists to sing.

Another takeaway from the great feedback here is that maybe I'm better off fast-tracking the original work, as opposed to trying to more perfectly mimic great cover songs. It's a more terrifying idea, but could lead to more satisfying results in the end.

Either way, yes,—work, work, work, striving and improving. The work is so fun. Having patience is the harder part. Thanks again!

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Weird. I don't know anything about classic rock and have no idea who this artist is and have never heard the song. I personally thought it was one of the better covers posted here...

Yeah a few pitch issues here and there.. I think they should be very easy for this singer to fix.  If I were to hear this at 99% of the shows I've gone to I would think it was a great performance... Emotion, unique (not in a bad way) vocal timbre, skill with high notes.. 

Different tastes?

Thank you so much for taking the time to write. It's valuable to hear from someone who doesn't know the original. And I didn't mention this in the thread, but if I sing this on stage one day here in south Brazil, which is a possibility in 2016, no one in the audience will have heard it, so I'd be free of the Tate comparisons.

Last night I checked the pitch of the performance with a pitch-plugin and, with the exception of a few spots in the first minute, the pitch is mostly spot on. I think some were hearing pitch mistakes because I wasn't following the original melody that their ears were expecting. Or, when they said "pitch", they meant to say "wrong melody". Something like that.

And I'm in no way saying this is perfect or great, but it's so hard to sing those mid-4th-octave notes, the G4, A4, I think there's a Bb4 in there, with connection and edge while maintaining clear articulation, that I thought I'd get a pat on the back for that. So, thank you. It takes away the sting of yesterday's "below average amateur hour" hit and run.

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You SHOULD sing on stage man! The sooner the better at this point! It's pretty much there! It's unlikely that anyone on this forum is going to be a billionaire famous singer anytime soon... having it be completely flawless... let's leave that type of stuff to Placido Domingo. You'd put on a pretty damn good performance man you're really close as is! Go for it!

And yeah your high notes are very good! I don't hear a lot of clear, edgy Bb4s here.. let alone in a live setting! A lot of very solid runs with multiple A4s in them without pitch issues and while maintaining your individual timbre; that's not easy in the least. You have talent man you shouldn't need us to remind you of that =p

I'm suddenly having issues replying with quotes...

You've made my day. Thanks again so much. Only a few people have ever heard me sing, even though I do work very hard on my voice now. I'm finding I need some encouragement to give me a nudge to get out there and you're providing it.

I have some friends in a popular local cover band who love to play music from Seattle (I'm from Seattle). Brazilians recognize the grunge classics, but wouldn't recognize Queensryche. They'd let me sing a set with them and I've yet to share a sample of my voice with them as I'm waiting until it's "just right". Brazilians are a very forgiving audience and they love rock.

 

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 That's such a great story! Down here (Florianópolis), it's the rock cover bands that draw the biggest crowds. The audiences gets into it, even when the singers are so-so, which is common, as long as the band plays tight as a whole. And they aren't at all turned off when the singer is a male late-40's, early 50's, which is another one of my insecurities.

 

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Hi Joe, I have listened to your track and read the comments by our forum members. Lots of great advice here and I can tell you from my band experience etc when you are doing any cover material from ICONIC singers lol people always expect it to sound just like the original artist. In some cases that may be kind of possible. There are certain singers with timbers and basic range similarities that make it easier to sing very close to the original artist. I agree with Roberts posts about striving and improving. There are songs I spent many years building the basic instrument up to a point where the execution was finally right. If you look through past pages I have many songs on here from very iconic singers and you can see on some I succeed more than others but I am always trying to improve as a vocalist and that shows in my own Original material maybe better than singing covers although even there I can see improvement on songs I tried to sing as a newbie etc. Never be discouraged, there was very little in my early singing that would have made other people think I should stick with it haha.

Hi Robert,

What's happening is that, even when I'm not quoting, but simply choose to add to post, I see dozens of quotes in the text box. When I click "submit", they seem to all go away. If I click on "quote", the same thing happens. For example, I didn't click "quote" for this reply, only the "add to post", and there are 16 nested quotes above where I'm typing right now. I'll click submit now, not sure if they'll stay or disappear.

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Looks like it only kept one of them and then automatically opened up this comment entry box without any quotes. Hopefully, it will go away after I post this. I had cleared cached, quit the browser, etc. to no avail.

Okay, adding this via edit: seems to be back to normal. A little forum software glitch. All better.

 

And when I wrote "add to this post" above, I meant when I clicked into the "reply to this topic" field at the bottom.

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Weird. I don't know anything about classic rock and have no idea who this artist is and have never heard the song. I personally thought it was one of the better "amateur" (I hate that word) covers posted here... Some loose ends to clean up, sure. But overall if I were to hear this in a performance setting I would really enjoy it!

Pros: Very unique (NOT IN A BAD WAY AT ALL,) beautiful voice timbre. Good high notes! Decent emotional communication

Cons: Pitchy here and there (easy fix), meh recording technique (sounds tinny)

A few months of solidifying everything, better recording production, etc. and it could be a really solid track. If I were to hear it as is live, I would think it was pretty good! I'd probably want to say hi to you after the performance =p

That's just the thing, I've been kind of AWOL for awhile in the review and critique section and it was the uniqueness of this cover that caught my ear and brought me out of the woodwork.

It honestly sounds a bit innovative and I'm kind of picky about innovation. It's not 'pretty or traditional' or whatever, but it's refreshing to hear something different. In a way I hope as Joe refines his performs style, he will keep some of the same characteristics. 

Ronws got it right, it sounds artistic. It's not like a manufactured candy bar that rushes sugar to your brain and fills you with sugar pleasure but it gave me a different emotional response than other singers, and it wasn't bad, it was more like edgy and whoa.

For me one of the worst experience I have in music is when something is 'mildly pleasant at best, forgettable at worst.' And I honestly feel bad when I feel that way. Joe gets a response from everyone here one way or another. It's provocative.

So my advice is basically figure out what you want to do. You want to sell sugar, or you want to make something a bit crazy and push a few boundaries and press people's buttons and at what point do you want to draw the line between something generically pleasant and something uncompromisingly expressive, stimulating or challenging or whatever. It already sounded provocative to me, not unpleasant for me, but I have a higher tolerance for obscure/weird human expressions than some.

If it were me, I'd add a bit more sugar in there, but you know, not everyone can be provocative and get a strong response from people. I would be hesitant to completely abandon that quality unless you have a specific mainstream traditional genre you want to fit into. 

Sometime I wonder myself if I'm not doing it right if a certain section of the population isn't a little outrage, or butthurt hearing it. That's stimulation, it's response. I always dreamed of beig a performer where some people would be like, 'I can relate to that, wow that is expressive.' and others would be adamantly opposed, 'that is not the way to sing. You are terrible singer. Blah blah blah.' I'd prefer to be hated on than have most agree something is mildly pleasant. At least it's some kind of genuine feeling that was communicated.

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That's just the thing, I've been kind of AWOL for awhile in the review and critique section and it was the uniqueness of this cover that caught my ear and brought me out of the woodwork.

It honestly sounds a bit innovative and I'm kind of picky about innovation. It's not 'pretty or traditional' or whatever, but it's refreshing to hear something different. In a way I hope as Joe refines his performs style, he will keep some of the same characteristics. 

Ronws got it right, it sounds artistic. It's not like a manufactured candy bar that rushes sugar to your brain and fills you with sugar pleasure but it gave me a different emotional response than other singers, and it wasn't bad, it was more like edgy and whoa.

For me one of the worst experience I have in music is when something is 'mildly pleasant at best, forgettable at worst.' And I honestly feel bad when I feel that way. Joe gets a response from everyone here one way or another. It's provocative.

So my advice is basically figure out what you want to do. You want to sell sugar, or you want to make something a bit crazy and push a few boundaries and press people's buttons and at what point do you want to draw the line between something generically pleasant and something uncompromisingly expressive, stimulating or challenging or whatever. It already sounded provocative to me, not unpleasant for me, but I have a higher tolerance for obscure/weird human expressions than some.

If it were me, I'd add a bit more sugar in there, but you know, not everyone can be provocative and get a strong response from people. I would be hesitant to completely abandon that quality unless you have a specific mainstream traditional genre you want to fit into. 

Sometime I wonder myself if I'm not doing it right if a certain section of the population isn't a little outrage, or butthurt hearing it. That's stimulation, it's response. I always dreamed of beig a performer where some people would be like, 'I can relate to that, wow that is expressive.' and others would be adamantly opposed, 'that is not the way to sing. You are terrible singer. Blah blah blah.' I'd prefer to be hated on than have most agree something is mildly pleasant. At least it's some kind of genuine feeling that was communicated.

Once again, thank you so much for taking the time to post. I've received so much value from this first submission.

You are a mind-reader of sorts, and you give me so much to think about. I've been afraid to provoke, so I keep it to myself, because I don't know how to sing any other way. I've felt like there's been a cool, "signature sound", buried under heaps of bad technique that's now rapidly revealing itself because of the workouts I do. I think I'd rather push boundaries and buttons, of course with better and better technique that comes in time with good training. The verb that came to mind reading your post is, "to polarize", which can be a good thing.

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I am disappointed that Robert deleted that portion of my comment that dealt with you having a vocal course because it's an important point that I made.

Your intentions to offer a lower priced alternative to more expensive courses may be noble, but in the end you hurt the business overall by offering a sort of "Made in China" knockoff. It lessens the market value for more qualified teachers and more comprehensive courses. It also makes people less likely to buy courses from myself, Robert, Ken, Brett etc. because they see a lower price. They get the course, realize it's not out together by a professional teacher and they become disillusioned about buying vocal courses from anyone else. Cheaper doesn't equal better - just as more expensive doesn't equal quality. To offer a course for money, one MUST be an expert in that chosen field - be good at it and able to demonstrate it effectively.

Interpretation is fine and actually necessary for a singer to grow. As an example; Frank Sinatra was the King of interpretation in terms of his phrasing, and arrangements of songs but the overall emotional intent of the song always remained.

If you wanted to really interpret "Silent Lucidity" differently, you have to use different music. Singing some wild interpretation over a karaoke track of the original song simply makes it too opposite.

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To offer a course for money, one MUST be an expert in that chosen field - be good at it and able to demonstrate it effectively.

Yes, which has become a huge problem in our industry in the last 2-3 years. So many "me-too" voice coaches that honestly, simply don't know hardly anything about how the singing voice works, let alone how to train it and demonstrate it. We have entered into a new era of over saturation of under and unqualified internet teachers looking to make a buck. And the people that are hurt the most are the students, first and foremost, and good quality professionals that are losing the incentive to even continue with all this "noise" going on.

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What makes someone an expert though? Jamie Vendera is a guy that until recently barely sang at all, and has had material for some time. I don't know if he studied the science (Estill, CVT) or traditional methods like Bel Canto.

He also says he is 'not' an expert. If something someone is suggesting is actively harming someone, I tend to advise caution. The 'hold your tongue out' exercise that has floated around in various places has a good chance of being involved in my my nerve damage, so I'm one to point out caution wit that exercise.

But if you were to call out this guy, you'd have to call out a lot of people that have in one way or another helped others by offering their perspectives.

In all honesty, I'm weary of proclaimed experts. I trust people who are always willing to absorb new information and process things as a potential novice a bit more than the many experts throughout history. 

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I think you have to strike it in the middle Jens... you cannot judge too hard on this first attempt, and only one sample. Singer's... ALL OF US... have to be allowed to grow, to get stronger, and to give it another shot. It takes several attempts to get a recording right typically.

On the other hand, Kevin's input is not about being a singer and that experience of getting better... it is more about being a voice coach in the business and what the experience and requirements need to be to have the expertise to do it without disappointing the market or worse, "teaching" something that results in the voice getting more fatigued or injured. As voice coaches, we have a responsibility to be protectors of good vocal health on top of everything else.

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Yeah thats true Rob i agree with you, but im just hinting at we cant judge his coachingskill or teaching talent by just this track alone. 

Being good at singing at teaching sure is connected but are also two seperate skills it's mostly that i wanna highlight. Even though the problem you and Kevin describes are real and exists I dont think this guys intention is to join you guys in the big clash of titans in vocalprograms ;) 

well just my two cents, btw the new mix on behind diverted eyes sounds killer

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Well put Jens... agreed. As you know, I have always been very careful to be clear that... you don't have to be the world's most amazing singer, to be a great teacher. Absolutely not. Is it preferred that teachers are singers as well?  Well sure!  But to be fair, it is not 100% critical.  I appreciate you coming to Joe's defense on this point.

Thanks for listening to "Behind Diverted Eyes"... Ya, I'm ding'n it... I'm proud of me. Me did good... 

If you click the link below in my signature, you can buy it ... :4:

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    Joe, The vocals sound great. I just want to make a quick comment on the "singing vs Training/Coaching " thing.

    There are a lot of choices in the singing aspect that have nothing to do with Training/Coaching. Prosody, Rhythm, vocal punctuation, inflection, choice of vocal weight, diction, To scream/distort, woofy growl or fry, Soft voice, full voice, staccato, legato ..........   All of these are artistic choices. A guide for making these decisions are not usually a part of training. Maybe they should be if one is going to call themselves a "Singing" coach. But it is not necessary for a "Vocal" coach.

    These choices are up to the singer. A singer can make bad choices on these things and still have perfect control of their instrument and the ability to train and Teach others to make Healthy, Solid, Beautiful Sounds.

    Training to have the ability to sound like Janis Joplin or Celine Dion does not mean that everyone is going to accept the choice that you made between the two on a given song.

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    I post in a critique section expecting a critique. Sometimes we are not good judges of our own sound and choices. Family and friends can not be trusted to give critique and advice on our choices either. They either want to encourage us through undeserved praise or give us bad critiques out of jelousy. Better to be reviewed by those who have no stake in our emotional well being and will give an honest opinion, Either good or bad.

   No, it should not be a judgement of some ones character, But you would post something that you have just started working on to find out if you are on a path that seems pleasing to most or not, then adjust as necessary.

   I would much rather have people on this forum give me a heads up that my choices for a songs presentation are bad than to present that song to a live group and be booed off stage.(This is not about the song presented here, just my view on the critique section itself)

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   Just to be clear, None of my comments were about the OP (Joe ). I came into this thread after the subject of "Teaching Vs Singing" came up. My comments were just about the "Teachers" should be good "Singers" subject. In my view that is "BULL" as I stated before Singing itself is about the Singers choices of Style, Presentation. Register .....(Paraphrased). Teaching is about training and guiding the ability to present those choices. Not to make the choices for the singer.

   Joe did a fine job as far as the singing itself. (Pitch, Tone, solid voice throughout the song).

   And a critique section, in my view, should also cover some of the other aspects of singing. Does the phrases flow in a musical context? Is the emotional value of the song being expressed? Does the choice of "Falsetto" vs "Belt" work within the musical theme of the song? Is the Tonality of the voice a proper match for the underlying music?

    The answers to any of those questions are only opinions,  and the OP has the right to accept or dismiss the view of the poster but they are still aspects that most people will concider when listening to the song as a consumer or member of an audience.

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Well, Tristan, you said it yourself. If someone posted here, he must be needing critique or help. Therefore, if someone posts here, you have to hunt and search for anything you think needs fixing. And it could be anything. Maybe you did a vowel wrong at only one point. Then the judgement will be sloppy articulation. You went a little flat in one spot only, so, for the whole song, you are pitchy.and that is all.

And evidently you have to be an expert to be a teacher and I don't know who is in charge of handing out the pin or badge that says expert. I don't what the requirements are to have expert status. Live shows, current or past? Professionally released albums? A degree from a university? What about certification from other singing training system? Is that something akin to a diploma mill? What about approval from other voice professionals in the world?

As for paying for lessons as a beginner, yes it is a valid pursuit. Why? Because sometimes paying hard-earned money makes you pay attention. There is already all kinds of free information out there that people are NOT listening to. If they would listen, they would already have the pointers they need. Plus, they need to pay someone to count scales, just as some need to a pay a trainer to count their sit-ups at the gym. Without that external focus of intent and money, some will lose focus and drive to do what it is they say it is they want to do.

Redneck rules of engagement, by ronws.

 

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And evidently you have to be an expert to be a teacher and I don't know who is in charge of handing out the pin or badge that says expert. 

Pssst Ronws, It's Rob who decides who get those pins(i thought you knew) ;) 

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