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How would YOU ideally arrange your training?

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JonJon

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trying to come up with a good way to put some structure into my training...specifically as far as divvying up the training time etc.

 

Essentially I am looking at devoting about 70% of my effort into a division such as this:

chest voice--belting "pulling chest"

head voice -- extending the range, achieving fuller tone

bridging -- seamless blending etc, late/early etc

 

and then maybe 30% into other stuff:

distortion

mimicking singers etc

 

Do you all have any such structure or is it more of a "whatever I feel like at the moment" thing?

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You want to do exercises that replicate singing. You can warm up on things like falsetto, lip trills, etc. but you want to be practicing and exercising in the "voice " you will sing in. So application is natural. 

 

Ps you never got a hold of me for the rasp stuff

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18 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

You want to do exercises that replicate singing. You can warm up on things like falsetto, lip trills, etc. but you want to be practicing and exercising in the "voice " you will sing in. So application is natural. 

 

Ps you never got a hold of me for the rasp stuff

 

Well my idea is this. Have separate key areas to work on..chest/head/bridge/screams/distortion etc....have the specific exercises for each area...but then also have a few ideal songs to work on that use those areas

 

for example my ideal for a strong chest voice might be this song

 

then for a good sound up in the B4 area this one. That "I" on the chorus!

 

I totally agree, I want to mainly do singing stuff and not weird "drills"...but the flip side to that is that I dont have the range right now to sing much that I like. yeah, I can sing a B4...but not like Joe Lynn

 

 

yeah, the rasp thing. Trust me, you dont want me as a student. Im a typical "artist" type...moody, strongheaded, unreliable lol

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What I've found has really expedited my training is A. always recording your practice sessions and B. singing a variety of songs and styles C. Not spending too long on a certain song or line of a song (sometimes it's the delivery you want or the type of vowel that is tripping you up and it's just better to train other aspects of the voice)  Sometimes you'll go back to a song with parts that were giving you trouble and realize that training other songs gave you the coordination necessary to tackle those problems.  Also keep your tongue situated behind or under the back of the bottom teeth, it'll move anyway but this is a great starting point.  And check yourself when you can for tension it's hard to tell sometimes cause it feels natural but relaxing the jaw and neck/throat will make it feel even more natural.  Like Robert Lunte says don't HITTT high notes lolll relax into them and support them with good airflow, unless your belting in a chestier mix for the fun of it.

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2 hours ago, Collin571 said:

What I've found has really expedited my training is A. always recording your practice sessions and B. singing a variety of songs and styles C. Not spending too long on a certain song or line of a song (sometimes it's the delivery you want or the type of vowel that is tripping you up and it's just better to train other aspects of the voice)  Sometimes you'll go back to a song with parts that were giving you trouble and realize that training other songs gave you the coordination necessary to tackle those problems.  Also keep your tongue situated behind or under the back of the bottom teeth, it'll move anyway but this is a great starting point.  And check yourself when you can for tension it's hard to tell sometimes cause it feels natural but relaxing the jaw and neck/throat will make it feel even more natural.  Like Robert Lunte says don't HITTT high notes lolll relax into them and support them with good airflow, unless your belting in a chestier mix for the fun of it.

see, its interesting to hear how someone else trains...because you only mentioned songs. I just trained for almost 2 hours (the time flew by) and it was all scales and onsets with various vowels etc etc. A great workout...but I didnt really SING anything lol.

I finished off by singing all 10 vowels on all 13 notes from C4 to C5 onsetting with various consonants.

So obviously I will have to structure in other workouts where I mainly SING lol

 

it might be cool to have an A,B,C type setup where you alternate between 3 different workouts:

A - "strength" workout where its all scales, onsets, pushing the range etc

B - "singing" workout where u mainly work on songs or lines from songs

C - "odds and ends" workout where you work on stuff like distortion, vibrato, weak points etc

 

of course A and B can be combined simply enough by taking a line from a song and start low and work it higher a half step at a time etc

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2 hours ago, JonJon said:

see, its interesting to hear how someone else trains...because you only mentioned songs. I just trained for almost 2 hours (the time flew by) and it was all scales and onsets with various vowels etc etc. A great workout...but I didnt really SING anything lol.

I finished off by singing all 10 vowels on all 13 notes from C4 to C5 onsetting with various consonants.

So obviously I will have to structure in other workouts where I mainly SING lol

 

it might be cool to have an A,B,C type setup where you alternate between 3 different workouts:

A - "strength" workout where its all scales, onsets, pushing the range etc

B - "singing" workout where u mainly work on songs or lines from songs

C - "odds and ends" workout where you work on stuff like distortion, vibrato, weak points etc

 

of course A and B can be combined simply enough by taking a line from a song and start low and work it higher a half step at a time etc

Scales are great but you gotta sing, and I like those workouts except for I wouldn't spend a ton of time on any one line and on C) I wouldn't really work on vibrato or distortion because you wont know what your legit vibrato will feel like till you have proper placement and full control of support (you could end up faking it IE shaking your larynx) also distortion is fun but it feels different as your resonance and support improves so I'd save that for very last after you have a fully connected voice.  Still some people will choose to make dirty sounds anyway cause they sound badass, I used to be really good at low growls and able to do the occasional scream now I can't even recall how to do either.  Although I can still add distortion it just seems as though the breath necessary is much more controlled.  So I'll be saving those techniques for last in my training.

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JonJon, my approach is streamlined like that and you will probably like it.

I start phonating sustained medium volume UHs and Oh's , on the area around D4 and G4 and raise the volume up to loud when it feels like it. Then I explore the area of G#4 and stay there for a couple of minutes. I do it "yelled" and covered in loud volume. Why covered? Because as minutes pass by, my head voice is also being warmed up. 

Then I move up a little higher, to A4 and A#4, always loud. And I start playing with other vowels, EE, EH, OO. I do that until I can siren up to C5 and D5 , I know when my voice can do that because it'll WANT that. It likes to go higher when its well warmed up.

After that process, that takes like 15 minutes, I just go hard on belting A#4 and B4, on phrases of songs. I sustain the notes as long as I can and as loud as I can. This is for about 10 minutes.

Then I move on to medium volume, controlled song singing, up to about C#5, always repeating phrases I like and sustaining the notes on the passagio and over it ( D5+ requires I raise the volume more and in the subway train I don't really want that that much hahah )

That is for about 20-25 minutes

Then I move on again to the loud sustaining phrases, now with my voice more tired so I have to adjust, I don't pull chest as much( not as much vocal weight), but rely more on head voice, but keeping the same resonance as before to keep the "illusion". That is for about 5 minutes.

Then I do songs again. Sometimes as much as I remember of the song, or pieces for sustaining vowels ( I'm a fan of sustaining ) And that is for like 15 minutes. As in the first time I did the more chesty songs that require more weight ( jorn lande stuff, kamelot, my songs ) my voice starts getting lighter as my chest voice muscles get tired, so high stuff (C5+) becomes easier by the minute. On this second song section I sing high stuff like helloween, angra, conception.

Then I take a pause for like 5 minutes and then do range work for 2 minutes, with sirens in full voice as high as I can go in UH, I don't care about volume there, I just go for it, and its on the street also so its hard to tell what volume it is exactly, I think its loud

Then I warm down with a couple of descending sirens and some glottis closing with increasing pressure ( a la valsalva maneuver ) and sustained swallowing for like 5 minutes.

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Specifics are hard but I would suggest:

- Relaxation;

- Breathing;

- Warm up;

- Any "heavy" exercise, for example exercises to correct adduction, stamina, or strenght building;

- Short break depending on the impact of the last part. If too tired, skip to warm down and continue next day;

- Exercises to aquire coordinations, which should be playful and without focus on repetition or quality, and with good references;

- Exercises to refine coordinations, always with a very defined purpose and understanding what is it that you have to do. For example, a particular vowel change that you need to do, keeping it forward, a specific part of the covering coordination, support, and so on;

- Singing a song and applying what you did on the last step;

- Warm down and rest.

 

But even so, depending on the case, it may be a good idea to do some exercises to correct adduction, which can be quite intense , and then dive into singing with the same intention even if it wears you down a bit, if for example you have a problem on correcting an airy emission and the issue persists....

 

Sometimes it may be a good idea to begin the study singing, identify the problems, and then look into them... It depends a lot on what is going on.

And of course there are the exercises to work on the music side itself. A lot of times it's worked on paralel as you go through scales or use a metronome to study breathing, but sometimes it just isn't enough and you may need to do some focused listening.

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2 hours ago, Felipe Carvalho said:

Specifics are hard but I would suggest:

- Relaxation;

- Breathing;

- Warm up;

- Any "heavy" exercise, for example exercises to correct adduction, stamina, or strenght building;

- Short break depending on the impact of the last part. If too tired, skip to warm down and continue next day;

- Exercises to aquire coordinations, which should be playful and without focus on repetition or quality, and with good references;

- Exercises to refine coordinations, always with a very defined purpose and understanding what is it that you have to do. For example, a particular vowel change that you need to do, keeping it forward, a specific part of the covering coordination, support, and so on;

- Singing a song and applying what you did on the last step;

- Warm down and rest.

 

But even so, depending on the case, it may be a good idea to do some exercises to correct adduction, which can be quite intense , and then dive into singing with the same intention even if it wears you down a bit, if for example you have a problem on correcting an airy emission and the issue persists....

 

Sometimes it may be a good idea to begin the study singing, identify the problems, and then look into them... It depends a lot on what is going on.

And of course there are the exercises to work on the music side itself. A lot of times it's worked on paralel as you go through scales or use a metronome to study breathing, but sometimes it just isn't enough and you may need to do some focused listening.

 

ok, thats an example of how to structure a single session....but what about a more long term plan. for example, in the first few years of training are there certain goals that should be more important?

in other words are there any general rules of thumb such as "work the bridge area 2x as much as you work head voice" or any kind of thing like that as far as long term structure.

 

Right now my idea for training is to focus a lot on the bridge area, sort of the e4-b4 area with both early and late bridging and various combinations of vowels and consonants both heavy and light mass. Essentially I want to pretty much erase the passaggio and get all of those notes nice and strong. I notice a lot of the rock songs I like have big full notes around the G4-B4 range

In addition to the bridge area I want to develop a much stronger head voice. Thats where I sort of come into conflict with the "just sing" camp. A lot of those songs I simply CANT sing yet because I cant make really credible notes in the sort of C5-E5 range. for example I love Ray Gillens work in Badlands...but pretty much EVERY song has something at least in the D5 range.

I just grabbed the first Badlands song that I thought of. This might be one of the easiest ones to sing...BUT..he still hits some nice D#5 stuff

for example:

 

The way I see it, one will have to have a plan which works certain things on certain days. There is no way to work everything in one session. One would almost need a "bridge day" and a "headvoice day". As you said, certain things are very taxing. if I were to train bridging or strong belting, there is no way id be able to follow that up with focused headvoice training

What do u think?

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I go by a combination of intuition and critical thinking. I've made improvements in every way I can measure without formally structuring anything.

It's probably preference and learning style. I'm good with intuition and critical thinking. Not great with formalized rules.

Even with programming or something demanding a specific syntax, or math where there is generally only one right answer, if I understand something critically, I'm much more adept, less frustrated, and learn quicker than if I follow a rule arbitrarily.

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16 minutes ago, KillerKu said:

I go by a combination of intuition and critical thinking. I've made improvements in every way I can measure without formally structuring anything.

It's probably preference and learning style. I'm good with intuition and critical thinking. Not great with formalized rules.

Even with programming or something demanding a specific syntax, or math where there is generally only one right answer, if I understand something critically, I'm much more adept, less frustrated, and learn quicker than if I follow a rule arbitrarily.

im sort of the same. Im trying to give myself at least some sort of "structure" or at least some specific ideas of what area to focus on when I do finally get around to feeling like it lol

But essentially you just described my whole process of guitar playing evolution. Nothing was ever planned but im still a pretty strong player. Its not IDEAL but its part and parcel of what makes me, me.

 

Back when I was a kid (mid 70s), when lower middle class white people wanted to show they had "made it", theyd make their kids take piano lol. So theyd have some strict German teacher come over and drill the kid 2x a week and then the parent MADE the kid "do your exercises" a couple times a week. Sort of like being made to eat spinach. Of the numerous kids I knew in that type of scenario, NONE of them still play. They never learned to have fun with it etc. I know others who like to play piano but they cant play a lick without a sheet of music in front of them.

My whole thought process is opposite to that lol

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As someone who does sing badlands songs from time to time live. I want to say if you want to sing this stuff you shouldn't train late bridging and early bridging as that does not make for good practice it only confuses the muscles instead of creating muscle memory. You need to know how the voice works and where you are and need to go in each registration. The voice has a set of rules(physics) and unless you are someone who naturally gets it. (Very rare and you wouldn't be searching for answers on a forum;) I suggest you find someone or a book that helps you understand these principles. Find someone that can demonstrate. If the coach cannot demonstrate how does he or she know the correct sounds or sensations that need to be worked on.  

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6 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

As someone who does sing badlands songs from time to time live. I want to say if you want to sing this stuff you shouldn't train late bridging and early bridging as that does not make for good practice it only confuses the muscles instead of creating muscle memory. You need to know how the voice works and where you are and need to go in each registration. The voice has a set of rules(physics) and unless you are someone who naturally gets it. (Very rare and you wouldn't be searching for answers on a forum;) I suggest you find someone or a book that helps you understand these principles. Find someone that can demonstrate. If the coach cannot demonstrate how does he or she know the correct sounds or sensations that need to be worked on.  

 

I respect your opinion and your singing but I slightly disagree on the bridging thing. Some of the singers I like tend to belt and carry chest way up at least to B4 give or take a few notes. Id call that late bridging. On the other hand a lot of singers I like dont carry chest up at all....everything is lighter and more nimble.

I mean, one is going to bridge somehow someway, either early or late or in between lol. How on Earth can it be wrong to train a variety of ways to go from low notes to high notes?

With all the cover songs you have done, surely you bridge late/early/in between as you cover guys with different styles. Surely Dio and Steve Perry would have a different approach?

 

and as far as me " searching for answers on a forum "....I sort of disagree with the negative connotation there. Im not "lost"...so I am not "searching". I am simply getting perspective from others.

 

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It's what you hearing. Nobody Carries chest up to b4. Your ear thinks it's chest but it's definitely not.  And some singers will say "I can do it some days but some days I can't" .  But if you know how to do it you can do it all the time.  

It's like this if you don't know where you are how can you get to where you want to go. 

I understand you are looking for perspective.  But if you could get perspective from someone that sings/ teaches what you like why wouldn't you? If you can find a coach that can demonstrate and explain wouldn't that be an easy win for finding perspective. When I wanted perspective I went to this guy because he did what I wanted to do. 

and I learned more from him then Seth Riggs or ron Anderson and 90% of the coaches I went to back in the day (15-20 years ago) why? Because he could sing!

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6 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

 But if you could get perspective from someone that sings/ teaches what you like why wouldn't you?
 

old school. Rather do it myself even if it takes 4x as long lol

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3 minutes ago, JonJon said:

old school. Rather do it myself even if it takes 4x as long lol

Then why are you looking for "perspective" on the forum. I think you may be contradicting yourself.;) I'm just bustin ya. but I'm also here to help that is all.  When I need answers to my cooking questions I call the chef who actually makes the dish :)

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1 minute ago, JonJon said:

old school. Rather do it myself even if it takes 4x as long lol

You may never reach a particular vocal coordination with self learning. Even with a life time.

I like self learning in part for that reason. A lot of my favorite singers had to make do with what they could do. I like the limitations and the sound of the human struggling against limitations.

But if there is a particular sound you really want. The closest thing you'll get to a guarantee is a good teacher who knows how to do it.

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I just dont see ANY way I need lessons right now. Im JUST starting the learning process. I dont need someone to teach me 'goo goo, gaa gaa' which is almost where Im at lol.

if the answer to every question is "take lessons"....then what is the point of the forum?? It starts to get old after a while

My voice needs strengthening in EVERY area....do I really need a teacher to tell me that???

 

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11 minutes ago, KillerKu said:

You may never reach a particular vocal coordination with self learning. Even with a life time..

This type of statement. Id really love to understand it. Is a coach going to reach inside my mouth and move the larynx or tilt the thyroid for me?

how does that work?

Arent there only so many different moving pieces and coordinations? I simply dont see how someone can TELL me how to find a coordination. Even if they demonstrate it, I STILL have to find it myself

 

 

 

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You were right Jon  you would be a tough student;) I would say you need a teacher to point you in the right direction so you know things like chest voice doesn't go to b4;). And what/how you need to concentrate to get to where you want to go and how to avoid the Bologna along the way. 

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3 minutes ago, JonJon said:

Arent there only so many different moving pieces and coordinations? I simply dont see how someone can TELL me how to find a coordination. Even if they demonstrate it, I STILL have to find it myself

well a good coach with good ears would be able to hear if you were doing it right or wrong.

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5 minutes ago, Danielformica said:

You were right Jon  you would be a tough student;) I would say you need a teacher to point you in the right direction so you know things like chest voice doesn't go to b4;). And what/how you need to concentrate to get to where you want to go and how to avoid the Bologna along the way. 

its a philosophical thing brother. Every teacher presents themselves as the key to ever lasting happiness. Im a little too old for that sales pitch lol.

chest voice to B4? we can argue that one all day and never come to an agreement. Pretty sure Jens has vids demonstrating M1 up to B4 and higher.

This teacher says that, the other teacher says the opposite. Talk about bologna lol

Again, more power to those who teach and those who take lessons. To each his own.

 

there are great singers who took lessons, there are great singers who never had a lesson

there are crappy singers who took thousand of lessons, just as there are crappy singers who were self taught

 

 

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