Singing pentatonics

[ilovemyself]

I wached two interesting videos: Bobby McFerrin Demonstrates the Power of the Pentatonic Scale and The Unanswered Question 1973 1 Musical Phonology Bernstein with sound

This has made me think pf pentatonics. It's said that those pentatonics are natural to sing but we can end up with sime problem if just accept this fact without thinking bout being practcal as well. It would be nice if some singing experts could help me with this:

If the major pentatonic scale is really that natural then matching pitch when singing shouldn't be that easy. If for example you manage to sing the note C then mtching the other pitches should be very easy since they are natural to sing and require no vocal train whatsoever.

1. It is said that some pop songs have melodies that is only with a fifth inveral since people who aee not good singers don't feel comfortable singing in a broader vocal range. But the major pentatonic scale has a range a bit broader than a fifth. It's actually nearly a minor seventh interval (somewhere between A and Bb). Does this show that pentatonics ain't that natural to us as we might think?

2.  I did the experiment in which you sing the children's  teasing rhyme that Mr Berstein mentioned in the video. I tried singing this and I found that the first note I landed on was something very close to a fifth about C (below middle C). The third note I sang should have been A and Bb (called the 7th harmonics) but it was a bit high for me in order to feel like a natural not to sing. If that is the note that all children sing when teasing eachother why didn't I manage to sing this note? It made me a bit frustarated as it should be natural to sound like teasing children. What is going on here you think?

3. In an equal tempered piano (as you know that is how you tune a piano today and a bit different from how people really sing) the fifth note of the major pentatonics scale is played as an A rather than Bb. That note is closer to Bb they say. Why then do we play it as an A rather than Bb do you think?

I am not interested in having arguments about pentatonics but I am interested in making my knowledge of pentatonics into something practical for a singer.

[MDEW]

           A singer sings the melody of the song. Whatever the scale that the melody happens to be in. If you are talking about "Runs" or "Melismas"(Expanding a note by making a seperate melody), Like Whitney Houston, Christina Agluera, Beyonce......) then the pentatonic scale can come in handy because you can have some "GO TO" Runs that fit most songs. Much like Electric guitar leads....... You can make things up on the spot and it will fit because you are only using a 5 note scale instead of a seven note scale..................

          I did not watch all of the Bernstein video, but will try to later. Nor do now know the significance of the  Teasing........... BUT........... Why would we have some common intervals that seem natural.......... Because that is what the grownups did to us when we were babies.............UH, OH................ also thing He said at the beginning of the video, Common notes in different order between songs.......... Find ANY group of 4 notes and LOOK for other songs that have them......... You will find many BECAUSE you are looking for them..

      As BZean said none of that has to do with being a singer and singing. You sing the Melody written or your interpretation sticking to the theme. Whichever range and scale it happens to be.

[ronws]

Bzean is right, heed well the Bzean.

[Sexy Beast]

Sorry I didn't have the courage to read the whole post... I just wanna say that when I do vocal exercises I use the pentatonic scale major/minor and different inversions/patterns because most melodies and riffs/runs are built around that scale.

[ilovemyself]

15 hours ago, Bzean123 said:

OK, I'll make it as practical as possible. 

Find some songs that utilize the pentatonic scale of your choice (there are many) and sing them. Match the pitches of the singer and if you are using a keyboard, match the pitches on the keyboard.

Without going into too many details, everything you are asking about is pretty much irrelevant to singing.

Surely you understand that a child and an adult do not have the same singing range. If you do not have the range to hit a certain note, that has absolutely nothing to do with the scale being used. Maybe try the rhyme an octave lower?

Likewise, unless you are singing blues or maybe some Mongolian music or something, you will be singing either A or Bb. If you are singing contemporary 'western' music, you will be out of tune if you sing anything in between, regardless of what harmonic it is. I commend you on watching the Bernstein stuff, I watched the series myself some time ago. It is interesting, informative and maybe even inspiring. But I can assure you that unless you are a professional singer of the highest order, the stuff about harmonics and temperament has no practical relevance to your singing, and can only confuse you. Hope this helps. 

So the teasing rhymes of cildren are difficult for me since adults have a smaller vocal range? Is that what you're saying?

Harmonics being non-practical? I don't know...beacuse...the thing it tells me is that singing is bit different from playing melodies on a piano. If you sing just naturally by yourself then there'll be no equal temperament. Isn't it more natural to sing without a piano (which is tuned another way then it is natural to sing)? Even the melodies from a singer accompanied by a piano can't be played on a piano (I've never really managed that).  I can see why people just wanna sing without even thinking about it at all. 

But how big/small vocal range should a normal adult have? I sang the children's teasing rhyme in the octave below middle C. Starting on a pitch near G. Then the third note should have been a note a bit higher than A. I then played A and Bb on my piano and sang those pitches. Bb in fact didn't really feel natural to me. I guess I have a very small vocal range. 

[Gneetapp]

6 minutes ago, ilovemyself said:

So the teasing rhymes of cildren are difficult for me since adults have a smaller vocal range? Is that what you're saying?

Usually adult males lose their range because of hormonal changes during puberty, and also because we simply forget how to bridge/connect our low and high ranges.

6 minutes ago, ilovemyself said:

Harmonics being non-practical? I don't know...beacuse...the thing it tells me is that singing is bit different from playing melodies on a piano. If you sing just naturally by yourself then there'll be no equal temperament. Isn't it more natural to sing without a piano (which is tuned another way then it is natural to sing)? Even the melodies from a singer accompanied by a piano can't be played on a piano (I've never really managed that).  I can see why people just wanna sing without even thinking about it at all. 

Pitch matching by a singer is done real time as the song changes. Of course with training or natural ability you learn/memorize the melody to the point you don't need a background instrumental track to infer the melody that has to be sung. Acapella singers do it all the time, they just need the first note for reference before they begin. I couldn't understand what you meant by "melodies from a singer accompanied by a piano can't be played on a piano".

6 minutes ago, ilovemyself said:

But how big/small vocal range should a normal adult have? I sang the children's teasing rhyme in the octave below middle C. Starting on a pitch near G. Then the third note should have been a note a bit higher than A. I then played A and Bb on my piano and sang those pitches. Bb in fact didn't really feel natural to me. I guess I have a very small vocal range. 

I have a 3 (almost 4) year-old boy, and when we sing together I always try to sing the original melody with him, no matter how high, and even when we are just joking around making noises such as sirens or lip bubles, sometimes I sing higher than he. Even though he can easily sing/phonate up to whistle tones (leaving me in the dust), sometimes he just doesn't remember or can bridge his registers. 

Regarding your vocal range, if it is something that is bothering you, you could just learn and practice correct vocal techniques to improve your range. Without hearing you, I could just assume your range is normal for untrained male singers. Which means that, unless you have a specific health condition, once you start your journey to become an "in-training male singer" you start getting more control of your voice, improving tone, and reclaiming notes from your high register. It is all up to you. Cheers

[Felipe Carvalho]

A major penta scale is just a natural major scale without 4th and 7th degrees.

A minor penta scale is a natural minor scale without degrees 2th and 6th.

The reason why these are useful is because these specific degrees could create intervals that would not work on ALL possible chord progressions within a given key, for example:

If you are playing on the key of Cmaj, you would have the following pattern to use

C - D - E - F - G - A  - B
1  - 2 - 3  - 4 - 5  - 6  - 7

A I - ii - V chord progression would then be (the notes bellow the chord name are the triads that make it):

I - Cmaj:
C + E + G

II - Dmin:
D + F + A

V - Gmaj
G + B + D

If you would improvise using the natural major scale within this context and played the 4th degree in your melody when you are on chord I (the root),  it would sound really, really weird, because the 4th is the F, and the F is too close to the note E that happens on chord I.

So the 4th and 7th degrees, which are potentially problematic, are excluded, and you are left with the 5 other tones which will fit any chord progression within the same key very well.

This is part of the reason why pentas are so common, and why people learn it as basis for improvisation and melodic phrasing in general.

But note, on the chord II, the 4th degree of the major natural scale is F and is PART of the chord, and if play your 4th when you are on chord II it would work very well, it gives it a nice sonority.

So pentas are simple but would leave you with very few options. A melody that has no 7th for example would lack the powerful idea of resolution that it brings. Keeping just to pentatonics is often not a very good idea since it can make the melody cheesy very fast.

This has not relation to how high you can sing since you can tranpose these intervals up and down.

The fifth was mentioned, and its true that if you follow the circle of fifths you would find a penta scale. But it does not mean your range limit has to be a fifth above C or anything like that, or that your melodies would always be on notes a 5th above or bellow the note you are playing at a given moment, you can be on the key of C and play a D, which is just a major second above the root note, and it would be all fine.

Think of a interval just as a sequence of notes that sounds in a given way. Sing Twinckle Twinckle little Star, the first notes of the melody when you go Twinckle Twinckle are a perfect 5th appart. If it ends on a B, the first note was a E. If ends on a Bb, the first note was D#. The perfect 5th is the most consonant interval second to unison, but that does not mean its the ONLY one that you can use. The distance between the notes gives the melody the sense of movement, tension and resolution, and all of them can be very meaningful.

Even that "dissonant" 4th can be used to cause an idea of suspension, or "loosenes from tone", which is nice if you want to, for example, change the key you are using during the song.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Its also worth noticing that on the just temperament, which is what we would tend to IF we indeed tried to follow precise intervals, although we would have a more significant change on the minor 2nd, major 6th and minor 7th intervals, they would not be enough to make the 6h closer to Bb than A, for example, on the key of C. The change is not that significant and would be on the opposite direction, although it is an audible change, the equal intervals are still quite adequate.

Also since we get used to equal temperament we tend to use it rather than just intervals. Most people nowdays would find strange to hear music on just intonation, and it can create reactions that would describe it as being "pitchy".

[Robert Lunte]

A super cool discussion guys!  I am running out the door but I just wanted to chime in and let people know that, The Four Pillars of Singing has 12 Pentatonic Blues workouts in the training program, with video demonstrations, solo piano recordings to train, etc... They are totally cool and really help you to hear the minor 3rd and other important intervals that scales such as these present.

1). I will share this... Singing blues scales or otherwise, minor vocalize is SUPER important for many reasons that I don't have time to divulge at the moment, but I will say this. For the most part, we spend our lives listening to a LOT of music in the major key; nursery songs, xmas carols, TV commercials, radio, etc... So the amount of experience that the ear has in hearing the unique intervals that make a scale minor or blues, is lower then major scales. For this reason, I believe it is particularly more challenging to sing in minor keys, that which pentatonic blues is considered to be a family member of. In particular the minor 3rd and other "exotic" intervals you can get into as you begin to explore the modes. Therefore, it is very important that students not ONLY train scales and songs in a major key, but also train minor key workouts as well. A detail that is often missed in vocal training programs. 

2). Also, learning to hear the more exotic intervals that comes with minor modalities helps a singer to really break out of boorish melodies. It is through the practice of minor modalities that more interesting melodies begin to emerge when you are writing your own music. For example, people love Layne Staley from Alice In Chains. I believe one reason for that is because Layne ofter sings in minor modalities / intervals. When I coach the AIC songs with students, we spend a lot of time on the black keys of the piano. Here... is where the bluesy, soulful stuff really begins to squeeze out. Train AIC songs, you will learn to hear the black keys...

This is a demonstration of one of those workouts called, "The Swinger". It was a pay per view video for $2. I disabled the PPV for the purpose of sharing with you guys. This is one of the 12 in the 4Pillars program.

BTW, we have a free, live webinar today at 12:30 PST for anyone that is interested in coming regarding vocal technique Q&A and the TVS program.  

Here is the link. Register and see you there: http://app.webinarsonair.com/register/?uuid=def78305546b4852adb9dcb31d08e2ec&evt=136348

... Gotta run... 

 

[Felipe Carvalho]

Hi Beast, I did mean I-II-V. not so common but used on Jazz, for example.

I-III-V has a Em(3º degree) not Dm (2º degree).

 

I wanted the 2º degree because of the fourth.

 

Did I do any mistakes here? My theory is not that strong I confess Or is it the way I wrote it?

Cmaj Dmin Gmaj

C Major, D Minor, G Major

C, Dm, G

Its all the same! (but I choose to be more verbose with the chords since I am also talking about individual notes there)

[Sexy Beast]

Quote

Hi Beast, I did mean I-II-V. not so common but used on Jazz, for example.

I-III-V has a Em(3º degree) not Dm (2º degree).

 

I wanted the 2º degree because of the fourth.

 

Did I do any mistakes here? My theory is not that strong I confess Or is it the way I wrote it?

Cmaj Dmin Gmaj

C Major, D Minor, G Major

C, Dm, G

Its all the same!

Yes you are right I got confused when I read your post. Please continue

[Felipe Carvalho]

Ah! Thank you, it was a bit confuse indeed, rewrote it to make it more readable.

[KillerKu]

Felipe's got it. Basically if people are beginners pentatonic scales allow people to skip potentially dissonant sounding note combinations. So you can basically fumble around and have it sound mostly offensive but not necessarily a sound you want.

When creating harmony upward from each note:

root (Do) you lose major 7th (ti) and suspended 4th (fa) in a trade off for missing potential conflict with the minor second (ti) one note below.    

2nd (Re) you lose minor 3rd (fa), and a major 6th (ti) 

rd (me) you are losing a perfect 5th (ti) because the minor second upward (fa) upward could sound conflicting

4th (Fa) is erased avoiding conflict with the minor second moving downward (me) 

5th (So) loses a major third (ti) and minor 7th (fa) for no potential conflict

6th (La) loses a suspended 2nd (ti) and a minor sixth (fa) no serious conflict

7th (Ti) is erased to prevent conflict with the next minor 2nd (Do)

The same principles apply when moving down the scale and lose just as many harmonies. This is only within an octave span. By the time you consider multiple octaves of loss you are losing 100s of possibilities, because two notes in the scale 'might' create dissonant when played together. I'd recommend everyone sit down at a piano and listen.

In general, if the sound is good, the sound is good. It can be a good sound. But removing things because they 'might' create problems and is limiting. Accidentals/chromatic sections are often used in a good portion of music I enjoy listening to. Those are notes outside scales period. As far as I can tell the only choice for me is to just get good chromatically, but scales have been a useful reference point along the way. 

Depending on your listening habits, your taste, and what appeals to you. Pentatonic might allow you to express enough of yourself. Or you may need fuller scales with more harmonic possibilities, or go fully chromatic for more, or even microtonal for even more one day. For now just have a good time and try listening to how the note are sounding melodically and harmonically.