Roy Khan

[The Future Vocalist]

Roy Khan not only is my favorite singer but one of my major vocal influences and my inspiration getting into music/singing. His tonality is one of the best around and here is one of the reasons why I said that:

I was wondering how hard would it be to get a tone like that? Rich,vibrant and beautiful. I'm not so much talking about sounding like him(although I would love to sound like him)but to get that same rich tone he has especially singing ballads like Abandoned?

[Draven Grey]

He always reminded me of Michael Crawford of Phantom of the Opera. The rich tone is part style, but mostly the mixing engineer I say this after being both a professional singer and mixing and mastering engineer for many years. The stylistic part has to do with resonant placement and, on the softer parts, slightly bleeding the glottis. Like any other singer, it also has to do with the shape of his vocal tract. But I'm being very serious when I say that most of what you're hearing is the mix - EQ, compression, and reverb (in that order). 

Funny thing, I very seriously considered replacing him in Kamelot. I had a direct route to make it happen through my business partners when I was coaching bands across the world, but I bowed out. Rhapsody of Fire's singer, Fabio, ended up touring with them. I was partner with two of the guys in RoF at the time. My wife had to put up with me going back and forth about it for many months. I don't regret not going for it, because my reasons are sound, but I do often wonder what it would've been like. One thing's for sure, no one can truly replace him.

[The Future Vocalist]

55 minutes ago, Draven Grey said:

He always reminded me of Michael Crawford of Phantom of the Opera. The rich tone is part style, but mostly the mixing engineer I say this after being both a professional singer and mixing and mastering engineer for many years. The stylistic part has to do with resonant placement and, on the softer parts, slightly bleeding the glottis. Like any other singer, it also has to do with the shape of his vocal tract. But I'm being very serious when I say that most of what you're hearing is the mix - EQ, compression, and reverb (in that order). 

Funny thing, I very seriously considered replacing him in Kamelot. I had a direct route to make it happen through my business partners when I was coaching bands across the world, but I bowed out. Rhapsody of Fire's singer, Fabio, ended up touring with them. I was partner with two of the guys in RoF at the time. My wife had to put up with me going back and forth about it for many months. I don't regret not going for it, because my reasons are sound, but I do often wonder what it would've been like. One thing's for sure, no one can truly replace him.

Well you could be right but here is Roy singing A Sailorman's Hymn with just a mic and acoustic guitar:

Notice the same rich tone without the special engineering.. The man has a God given talent hence my original question still stands.

 

[Draven Grey]

I hear a boost at 185Hz to bring in some bass. Another at about 300Hz, but subtle, which I think is mostly the microphone and room. Then again at 600Hz to bring out a bit more of the mid brassy sound. They didn't amplify 3K too much, but just enough to make his voice not get lost in the guitar sound and stand out front. Most of the richness from there was taken over by reverb to round out the voice and blend it with the guitar (sharing the same reverb). Most of that could be done with a 3-band EQ, a sweepable mid, and reverb, all on an inexpensive sound board. Not everyone can hear these things. I trained in it and practiced it for many years. I'm not boasting, especially since anyone can do it - possibly with just training in Golden Ears Audio Eartraining by David Moulton. However, Everything I said about it mostly being the mix stands. I'm not denying he has great timbre, but it's definitely being polished and enhanced by a good mix. No doubt raw tracks would still sound good on a mic with the right EQ curve, but I guarantee he would sound pretty different in that case. Not bad, but like the examples above.

[Jens]

Cmon draven... Guys a firstclass singer... Regardless of mix, his timbre and emotion is crazy strong. 

Also be glad you ducked out on the gig, the guys shoes are crazy hard to fill. Very unique style he sings with. They got the best replacement they could with tommy karevik, wich is very similar both in appearence and style. Though he's not as emotional singer as Roy even though his technique is stronger

[Draven Grey]

I'm not denying that he has a great voice. But don't underestimate how a solid EQ and certain effects can bring different qualities of the voice to the forefront that you otherwise might not hear. I think every musician and vocalist should go through Golden Ears Audio Eartraining. In Khan's case, I've always heard a great mix bring out specific qualities of his voice. I never said those qualities aren't there. But the tone in question was being heard mostly because of the mix.

[Jens]

2 minutes ago, Draven Grey said:

I'm not denying that he has a great voice. But don't underestimate how a solid EQ and certain effects can bring different qualities of the voice to the forefront that you otherwise might not hear. I think every musician and vocalist should go through Golden Ears Audio Eartraining. In Khan's case, I've always heard a great mix bring out specific qualities of his voice. I never said those qualities aren't there. But the tone in question was being heard mostly because of the mix.

But thats true for every pro out there, i hear that thing for every good singer and recording. Ofc the mix will be good, ear training or not, regardless if you are given prolevel mixes people like you and me wont sound like Khan.

Then if you truly know how to nail these sounds mix or no mix please show me as im certainly intrested in this. Khan is one of My favourite singers and getting close to what he has would be great.

[Draven Grey]

25 minutes ago, Jens said:

But thats true for every pro out there, i hear that thing for every good singer and recording. Ofc the mix will be good, ear training or not, regardless if you are given prolevel mixes people like you and me wont sound like Khan.

Then if you truly know how to nail these sounds mix or no mix please show me as im certainly intrested in this. Khan is one of My favourite singers and getting close to what he has would be great.

 

This could be a fun project, especially since I've been needing to upload some song examples besides my chosen style in The Silent Still. I'll see if I can write a little something in Kamelot's style and get to work on it. That can take a while though. Do you know if they have an instrumental version of a song I can learn more quickly?

[Robert Lunte]

Technology is amazing... now doubt. It is also true that no matter how hard you try, you cannot polish a turd.

 

[Robert Lunte]

1 hour ago, Draven Grey said:

Golden Ears Audio Eartraining.

What this?

[Draven Grey]

2 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

Technology is amazing... now doubt. It is also true that no matter how hard you try, you cannot polish a turd.

 

 

 

[Robert Lunte]

lol !  Ok, can I get to that later... I have a webinar to do right now... "thanks"!

[Draven Grey]

3 minutes ago, Robert Lunte said:

What this?

http://www.moultonlabs.com/full/product01

Worth far more than the price, and over-delivers on the results. I went through this befroe I started mastering albums. It's very odd being able to talk about very specific points on the EQ within a few decibels difference, and also extremely subtle effects. When in a pro studio, IU can't tell if it's annoying or helpful to the mixing engineer. haha!

[Jens]

3 hours ago, Draven Grey said:

This could be a fun project, especially since I've been needing to upload some song examples besides my chosen style in The Silent Still. I'll see if I can write a little something in Kamelot's style and get to work on it. That can take a while though. Do you know if they have an instrumental version of a song I can learn more quickly?

It's a challenge then! The big Kamelot vocalcover challenge! There are tons of instrumentals out on the tube so take your pick  

[Felipe Carvalho]

o/ Im in

[Robert Lunte]

Cool, top Knights of the round-table stepping up!

 

I have to confess, I am familiar with Roy Khan, but vaguely. Not familiar with any tunes really. Maybe a few from the album that has the heart on it. But I do know he's great.... So, ... I took some time to listen to these two embeds...   

- Yep, as I expected, sounds great. Very theatery... me likey.  Gotta croon those low baritone notes... 

I have to point out... it is true that for every truly great vocalist, there is a truly great accompaniment and band behind them. You can't deny that. A wondrous vocalist cannot achieve full potential if the band can't step up and meet them in drama with the arrangement. I simply LOVE metal like this. I envy people that get to front bands and songs that sound like this. All this BIG , Heroic keyboards... all this drama ... it reminds me why I originally fell in love with great singing. Its to hear great theater and drama in the voice, against a metal template. I would much rather sing songs like this then say, ... audioslave songs any day. Even though I love audioslave!... I want fantasy, drama, theater... that's just me talk'n.

Didn't he do a cameo appearance on one of Mullmuzzler album? Sort of the Dream Theater (Mike Portnoy) guys, side project?

 

On 7/14/2017 at 7:06 PM, The Future Vocalist said:

Roy Khan not only is my favorite singer but one of my major vocal influences and my inspiration getting into music/singing. His tonality is one of the best around and here is one of the reasons why I said that:

I was wondering how hard would it be to get a tone like that? Rich,vibrant and beautiful. I'm not so much talking about sounding like him(although I would love to sound like him)but to get that same rich tone he has especially singing ballads like Abandoned?

Future, this is a lovely song. I have to say, I don't think this is particularly difficult to sing or capture this sound color. Are you saying that you are having difficulty getting a rich sound color like this? My first response would be, ... you shouldn't. Compared to anything above the bridge, this is the easy stuff. ( per the other discussion regarding Johnny Cash & Muddy Waters...). 

Why don't you submit a track / sample of you doing this? Let's get to work.

SAILOR:

Cool, intimate, churchy, renaissance vibe performance Roy... I am familiar with this tune. Lovely.

Guys, this is a light mass attack on the voice and it has a lot of sob mode in it... it sobs / curbs a lot. If you can practice your sob mode ( future ), you can get this color in your voice. It is not hard. In a way, you sing THROUGH a cry in your voice a bit. Sob is characterized by; tilted cricoid, a soft palate resonance ( curbyness ) and great GOBS of subconcious emotional mojo... thus, why its so great for singing.... It also is EXTREMELY helpful in getting "top down" / masky, good placement, etc... and it is a major factor in creating this sound color. Roy certainly isn't the only singer that does this. Frankly, most great singers sob either all the time or from time to time... its as common as vibrato. To sing is to sob, to sob is to sing... not literally, but pretty damn close for most pop/rock songs.

This song is more challenging to sing then the first one in my opinion. To keep it connected in that light mass, sobby position is more difficult than it sounds, but I have found that with a fair and square amount of practice, you ... or at least I can get this sound color relatively quickly. Is there a bed track for this... Maybe I'll try this for the Kamelot Knights Challeng?

... but Future,... this is comparatively easier than most selections.... what I'm trying to say is, if you are training and have a capable, athletic instrument, you should have no problem getting this sound color going. I would be happy to coach you on it and show you. 

In your copy of The Four Pillars of Singing, review and train:

- Sob Physical Mode.

- The Pulse & Release Onsets ( similar. vocal fry and sobbing are not the same, but very similar ).

- On the "My Training" page in the web site... scroll down to Phase 3 and then work on this Integrated Training Routine... probably a good one to practice sobbing.

Coordination & Tuning #3

P&R + /Eh/ < > /eh/, /a/, /ou/ + P&R

 

Anyone have a bed track for this?

[The Future Vocalist]

Rob thanks for commenting. Actually I was asking and I should have clarified and said through training if it was possible to get that type of tone or color. If it's possible than once I get my fiances in check(hopefully by early fall or winter)I'd like to train with you and work on this. I'd figure you would be the ideal person to help out considering how knowledgeable you are in singing/vocal.

[Draven Grey]

Honestly, Kamelot's catalog is so big, I have no idea where to start, nor do I have the time to sort through it. Can someone pick 2 to 3 songs for me to choose from? I definitely would love to tackle one of their songs, as long as it's not so complex it would take me months to learn. 

@The Future Vocalist, you can definitely train you voice to sound like his. My point was that even if you sound exactly like him, it takes a solid mix to bring out the particular elements you hear in his voice in different songs. That's actually something Robert and I talked about on the phone for a while after this conversation started. But when it comes to the training for sound color and technique like his, don't wait. Post a video in the "review my singing" section and get some pointers now. Even get a head-start on training with Robert by purchasing The Four Pillars of Singing.

[The Future Vocalist]

Draven thanks for the response. Do you want me to pick the songs for you since I know their catalog(they are my favorite band)?

[Draven Grey]

1 hour ago, The Future Vocalist said:

Draven thanks for the response. Do you want me to pick the songs for you since I know their catalog(they are my favorite band)?

That would be great! I'm also going to start working on an original in the same style.

[The Future Vocalist]

Here are 3:

Nights Of Arabia 

Center Of The Universe 

Ghost Opera 

 

 

[Draven Grey]

I'm not very much into the band, but Ghost Opera sold me on his voice years ago. I had forgotten about it. I'll start to learn it this coming week. I'll likely have the original in this style -done in a month or so too.

[Draven Grey]

Although, I really like how he goes higher in this one:

 

[Robert Lunte]

On 7/16/2017 at 1:53 PM, The Future Vocalist said:

Rob thanks for commenting. Actually I was asking and I should have clarified and said through training if it was possible to get that type of tone or color. If it's possible than once I get my fiances in check(hopefully by early fall or winter)I'd like to train with you and work on this. I'd figure you would be the ideal person to help out considering how knowledgeable you are in singing/vocal.

Future, I have been watching your posts here and I would consider it a lot of fun to finally meet you in person and help you out. No doubt, I can help you get this sound. I mean, I pretty much got that "baritone croon" vibe down and we can work on the sobbing above ground. Just send me a private email and let me know.

[Robert Lunte]

On 7/22/2017 at 1:18 PM, Draven Grey said:

when it comes to the training for sound color and technique like his, don't wait.

This is a good point.

In many different situations, there seems to be a tendency for student singers to want to ,... wait until... ? Wait until something happens first, before they begin training and getting after it. I appreciate finances may be a fair defense, but so often I hear, "... I'm not going to take lessons until I decide I'm ready and finish reading the book, and completing ever lesson in the course and get to a point where I think I'm ready and then .... "  STOP.  

When people do that, they waste time because they are practicing mistakes or inefficiently. Getting in front of me or Draven for at least 3 - 6 lessons will drastically cut to the chase and insure that your workout routines are efficient and your getting the most progress in the shortest amount of time. Don't procrastinate when it comes to vocal training, it is a very easy thing to unknowingly do.