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Is it possible that the cord would be tired even used it correctly?

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MetalHensen

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Well sure it can be done in an healhy manner as can singing a soprano C but if you speak on soprano C all the time...

Sure you are right in away Martin and I respect your opinion, everything can be done with perfect technique but i dont think anyone posess perfect technique as there is always room for anyone to improve.

Besides asking someone is probably not the right way either as many people that have speechdisorders are not aware of them until they get real problems.

For instance lets say I have a too high speakingvoice and i notice there is problems I get on this forums and for instance follows an advice to lighten the tone and speak from the top to bottom.

Also if my speakingvoice had a growl on it evertime i spoke I dont think anyone of you would go hey thats ok since growl can be done healthy. Some sounds even if done healthy can tire the voice and in my opinion fry is one of those.

Im not trying to proove anything with these answears since most people here that has answeared knows more than me, im just trying to take the problem further as I find this very interesting.

Centreoftheuniverse that speakingvoice test is actualy very good and it helps you find your primal sound,the sounds we do without thinking.

Thanks for a great discussion / Jens

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Jens,

Good points.:)

I'm not here to prove anything either. And you could be right. Though I just think that to often people are concerned about other things besides the actual singing technique such as reflux, high speaking voice, low speaking voice, smoking, drinking, diet etc. In this case with Tate it's likely that there is 95% chance that he just needs to adjust a few things with his technique. Also be aware that these singers get older and therefore looses some of their physical strength if they don't stay fit.

I would say that 95% of all vocal problems related to singing is because of bad technique. So in my opinion it makes more sense to start looking at the technique instead on focusing on the last 5%. :)

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"I would say that 95% of all vocal problems related to singing is because of bad technique. So in my opinion it makes more sense to start looking at the technique instead on focusing on the last 5%. :)"

Yes you are right Martin but having good speechtechnique is probably as important as having singingtechnique, to high or too low i would place in singingtechnique but thats just me ;)

Good posts guys keep em coming!

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Also be aware that these singers get older and therefore looses some of their physical strength if they don't stay fit.

this is why i dont believe its a good idea to rely on physical strength for singing.physical strength lessens as you get older, good technique shoudnt. as far as i know tate is quite into exercise but i dont think he ever studies voice anymore so i guess he may be vocally unfit so to speak. for me good technique is about getting the best outcome for the least effort.

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"i think that another aspect of the colour change is also to do with the type of voice. ive noticed that the colour change ( as well as an more apparent ease to mix or connect through the main passaggio )is often less evident with singers who naturally have a lighter speaking/chest voice to begin with. im sure it isnt always the case but it seems very often this way."

I agree with this, I think that is easy to explain.

A female could bridge easily and seamless and even color changeless relate to a man. I think one of the reson is the speaking range. The higher of the speaking range, the more chance to trainning the passagio(you may raise up your speaking voice, you'll notice there is a sharp tone above the passagio at first. And if you do more try you may find out a way to suppress the sharp heady tone)

A singer named Michael Sweet(vocal of the band Stryper) is the example. I think he has a perfect passagio, and his speaking voice is high.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSQVpE6GiLk

Flat out, Michael Sweet is an amazing vocalist... just amazing... and not recognized enough. Id have to say, sometimes perfect technique. Ok, I may be digressing here off the subject, but its nice to see someone bring Sweet to the attention.

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First of all: Hey there everyone, first post for me :)

I know the problem the initial topic starter described. I used to exhaust my voice by completely relying on air compression and power by my abdominal muscles and diaphragm. In the studio I managed to get some really sick noises done, but it was a total killer for my folds during shows, where I repeatedly started to lose my voice from like 20-25 minutes onwards. First I lost the high notes, then the control over my head voice, and then the rest (in that order). Always a bad indicator was that when after finishing a song, it was hard for me to talk in a normal manner.

That has changed now, as i really worked on relaxing the muscles in my throat / mouth area over the last two years. From a metal singers point of view I can only stress the importance to relax in all areas / modes you sing in + the air balance. If you scream, growl or shout, it doesn't matter. For me that works wonders, although I am far from perfecting it...

I still have another problem though - sometimes my folds will stop producing a held note for a splitsecond. That starts at around 30 minutes into the show and will continue until the end. My observation is that my mind and consequently the body start to lose their focus on breathing, resulting in wrong compression, stressing the folds too much. Is that logical at all? Or am I am running / training towards a dead end there?

btw: there are some great hints to try out in this thread, thanks for the new input, much appreciated.

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  • 1 month later...

You never strengthen the muscles of the vocal cords. You strengthen your support to take weight off the cords and sing with as little air as possible. If you are singing with good technique your body will get tired eventually, not your voice. By only singing correctly, your body will work hard and become progressively stronger.

All the best,

Roberta Prada info@voxmentor.com

Edited Friday, May 29th

Hi!

This is a great topic, the issue has been confusing me lately alot. To think that i don't strengthen my fold's muscles, There's a lot of confusion basicly in the balancing my voice.

My problem seems to be that when I sing in the middle/high part of my voice, over my first bridge(chest-head), in full voice, it'll start off good. I sound nice, I have some power and dynamics. Depends what kind of song i sing, let's say that's a rock, that includes alot of mid/higher singing, it'll wear out my voice almost completely. It feels like I start to oversqueeze. sound gets cracky, like vocal fry, but hard, not healthy, and if i try to "let go" the squeeze abit to remain in steady closure, it's almost impossible. Either I oversqueeze, or then I just let go and well.. it start's to go really shaky, maybe like oversquuezing but still breathy etc. The sweet "buzz", the closure vanishes.

So if i just squeeze, I truly can squeeze really much. So it's not about the muscle strength. Or then there are some muscles i'm tiringor something. Could you tell me is it the muscles going tired, and out of control, or what is this. It happens every time I sing enough. Secondly, if it would be because of lack of support.. I feel that i can support. I can control my airflow, to the point where i actually don't "exhale" at all, so I guess I don't "push" the air out either too much. What i'm missing?

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There is a lot of discussion about what is meant y support. Some people are taught to push in with their bellies as they sing. It sets in motion a chain of events that finishes badly.

The better way to support is to have your shoulders relaxes and rolled back so that your shoulder blades are flat against the ribs, and your head is positioned so that you are looking out as though you were peering over half glasses. In this position your ears are in the best alignment and you will will hear best. The voice is controlled by the ear/brain connection as well as by your technique, which should in all aspects use the least effort possible. Know that I am speaking of technique for opera singers, without microphone. You cannot feel your diaphragm, nor control it.

If your posture is right your throat will be open, and when you have your chest open, and keep it that way, you will be able to take all the weight off your vocal apparatus, and sing with minimal amounts of air.

When you open your nostrils, pull your ears back and raise your cheek muscles, you will have the basis for a good technique. It is hard to keep this position, and you will need to strengthen it. Once you have mastered this and can keep the buzz going in your face between your nose and forehead, you will feel the buzz going back as you ascent. You have to add more refinements to reach high notes, and low notes. that is why we balance the middle of the range first, and strengthen all those subtle connections.

Consonants must be said with the tip of the tongue, and without chewing. But before that you need a set of matched vowels - 5 Italian basic vowels.

This has to be done in layers, and that is why you need a voice teacher. But the first thing we straighten out is the coupe de glotte, as in J Faure, and using his exercises , which i find more precise than Garcia for beginners.

A lot to take in. But I am stating it here to go once over all the areas where tension could develop when you deivate form posture or support.

All the best,

Roberta info@vocalimages.com

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hi folks,

i was able to change from all caps to all lower case... i hope that's better. can i be perfectly blunt? it's only my opinion, but i think there are times where we might over slice and dice these topics. i'm very busy practising and practising and not over"anal"izing this gift we have been given. sometimes i wish we could all be a little more down to earth, and help those who are less knowledgable with simple easy-to -grasp consultation. i think these technical explanations allienate and intimidate the core group of beginners. i have had only one formal voice lesson, but i'm starting to believe that some voice teachers are chock full of pomposity and arrogance and display no desire to help, just critique and intimidate.

please don't misunderstand...i, for one, am very grateful and appreciative to be part of this web site.

but at times a simple explanation is all that's needed, not a dissertation...your thoughts?

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Hi Roberta!

Wow that was an approach I've never heard before :) And have to say i am confused about the "support" myself too. I don't take things as a "divine truths" when i hear them. I'll check if they work and try to figure out what's the thing "why it works, if it does." So there's some different views i've heard and yes, they are confusing coz they usually don't explain the body mechanics that they do/affect.

I'd say i'm not a truly beginner since i've been searching these technique things for a long time already. But when it comes to actual singing, I guess I don't do that good. "I know more than I can do".. :) Well maybe we shouldn't raise this as a philosophical conversation about how do I know something If I can't do it, but anyways..

Your explanation feels really "natural" basicly, If you tell me that I shouldn't push my belly in(Like that's described in example, by the CVT method) I gotta check it.. I really could use a teacher, but the fact is that i don't actually trust singing teachers here in finland :) In U.S they got these Brett Mannings and other superteachers, that would be nice to have guiding me, but it's not so great here. The CVT method hasn't arrived yet, only a couple of teachers use it I guess.. Mostly it's something traditional that teachers use.. I guess operatic singing teachers could actually teach something good. But they would only intend to put this operatic style into my voice which i don't want(oh yes, i'd like to be able sing also that way, but not permanently) And I bet they can't "separate" the style from the technique they're teaching.

Other teachers are most likely to do my voice just harm. What I see mostly among finnish singers(that are taught by finnish teachers mostly) is high strained and pushed up larynx, excess amount of tension in the neck etc. They seem to teach this way mostly. Also the quality of the voice/tone is really poor among some. nasality/weak vocals, "pulled chest"... Not connected and easy. I our "professional singers" are in this level, how could I be better with those teaching abilities?

I've decided to correct this problem and really delve into singing teaching and make the world a better place to sing!! :D

And sorry about generalisation, I know there gotta be really good teachers also.. But the fact is there are alot of those who just doesn't know enough about body mechanics and everything necessary. They teach based on imagines "Think of being an ass when you sing the lower notes." Ye, that'll do it :) They may get the sound they wanna hear and at the same time miss the constrictions this way made to a student..

wow abit offtopic, but ye, I'll check your explanation roberta, thank you! :)

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hi folks,

i was able to change from all caps to all lower case... i hope that's better. can i be perfectly blunt? it's only my opinion, but i think there are times where we might over slice and dice these topics. i'm very busy practising and practising and not over"anal"izing this gift we have been given. sometimes i wish we could all be a little more down to earth, and help those who are less knowledgable with simple easy-to -grasp consultation. i think these technical explanations allienate and intimidate the core group of beginners. i have had only one formal voice lesson, but i'm starting to believe that some voice teachers are chock full of pomposity and arrogance and display no desire to help, just critique and intimidate.

please don't misunderstand...i, for one, am very grateful and appreciative to be part of this web site.

but at times a simple explanation is all that's needed, not a dissertation...your thoughts?

I understand what you mean and I agree to a certain extent. Sometimes there is so much focus in technical issues that we end up getting totally lost, overanalysing everything, just like you said. That makes the mental constrictions of our voices even stronger, and may hinder our progress because we try too hard to be in absolute control of everything when we don't necessarily need it, I think.

On the other hand, a simple explanation isn't enough. Sure, a beginner may benefit from not being flooded with information, but sooner or later he will have some curiosity about vocal anatomy and sound production and whatever. It's like a children asking why the sky is blue. At first, he may be satisfied with the answers "God painted it like that" or "It's reflecting the sea" but he will not stay like that forever. He'll start asking "Then why is the sea blue?" or something, and as he grows up he will eventually find the real answer for the question, if he's still interested, of course. As singers develop, the process is many times similar. As the voice grows and our interest for it too, we may want to know more and get to this point of long technical debates. It's not a bad thing at all, in my opinion.

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Well to think this from the beginners view it may be too much info. These forums are great about the fact that you may read whatever you wan't and when stuff gets too "hard to chew" you can just stop reading :)

Whenever it's about teaching a beginner, I think you don't want to throw all the things you know about singing to the students face. First of all, he/she doesn't really learn and remember but a fraction of what you tell him/her if you spread everything out. About a basic kind of learning process, that they use in schools from the very first grades. First, the basics. it has to be taught little by little. It has to be consistent, logic way to teach, that consists of "blocks of subjects", like a pyramid, from upside down. it starts off in one block like "this is singing, you open your mouth and make a sound", and then comes two things, etc. This way student learns and remembers in categorized manner! And there's a fine way to take students knowledge how far he/she wants.

Another thing about these great, delicate and specific conversations is that, some here are teachers, and some may want to become one. The thing is, that if one guy is being taught singing, you don't necessary need to tell the heavens about techinque. He get's away with simple excercices. He may be amazed "this is so simple, i just do these things and miracles happen". too much information makes him think that it's HARD!!! When you think it's hard it becomes a mind block and it has to be tackled or he maybe a poor singer to rest of his life! And to some too much info makes them go furstrated for some reason, I guess they just don't want to know too much, they just wanna enjoy and have some fun without huge amount of study!!

I'm not a professional teacher. I taught singing to my cousin. I gotta admit I told him too much about these things, tho he was really interested about those things, he admitted that only a some parts of the info he remembered.. But I didn't take those exercices too hard. He never had known what is "head voice" or anything. He didn't know what it is, how to access it or anything. He wasn't aware of the terms, the technique, and even his chestvoice was pretty weak, coz he is a very shy guy, and doesn't speak loud :)

After two sessions, he got ability to use his chestvoice more efficiently, it was breathy, harmful way to sing before, now he has really a bite to it! And about range, he used only his chestvoice before, and had about 1,5 octaves or something. after these two sessions he got 3 octaves of strain-free range(it was with pure smooth headvoice, not strong of course but still). If you know SLS terms, he got past his second bridge on the second lesson. I'd say this was a good improvement without the knowledge how he did it. He just felt it, that's enough.. But problems occur if teacher isn't aware of these little things what may happen, and don't know how to correct them. That's why, at least I wanna discuss and read this super-specific things, and it seems this forum is great at it also!

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folks, by no means am i saying let's all be basic and simple...i'm just suggesting we mix it up a bit.

the "pros" and experts are one reason why i became a member. to quite frankly, tap their expertise.

i am a proud member of tmv. i appreciate everything you folks do here. so don't think badly of me..okey doke?

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Hey no reason to apologize:) Simple things being told simple may be the best to learn things.. Tho deeper knowledge keeps your way more accurate. Maybe it would be nice to represent the simplest idea first and then add the "professional viewpoint" or something?

Anyways. I'm still having hard time with the "cord tiring" effect. Can anyone tell me what's about this thing, that I lose my sweet closure and it goes hard, almost cracking sound eventually. Any advices how to get rid of it? Maybe I could post a clip, where I do something like 30 secs holding one note. I assume that after it my voice starts doing that kind of thing..

I'd like to add a couple of questions that's about MetalHense first asked.

1. If I lose my voice like described above, is it about the tiring of the cord muscles or the tiring of the "breath control"? Or both?

- I can squeeze to the end, as hard as I want, but that's not the thing. The thing is the sound gets ugly and eventually starts to hurt my cords(I don't go that far anymore, but it goes there if I keep singing)

2. If I keep singing like this, does anything develop better? Or should I change the way I sing in order to develop?

3. If I develop from this point without changing "technique", is it because of "unconsious development", where I really change things I do, but I just don't realize it, or can it be just that I "develop my current coordination, enchance muscular power, that are inside my larynx or compound to my "breath control"?

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Hey all,

A couple of days ago I experienced something i haven't before

I did my good 45 minute warm up and then went on to sing a number of different songs.

All songs i was singing were roughly between G bellow middle C to G above Tenor C.

I was using a number of different techniques but really working a focusing on full voice.

I was singing for about half and hour then i started to get a bit tired...

Nevertheless i progressed. I had a slight metal attitude shift to "come on you can do this, just focus"

I then found myself singng much better and with much more ease than ever. It was like it all fell into place....

I had no vocal cord tension and i sang for a further 1 1/2 hours.

This has never happened to me before but i was just wondering why his may've happened??

I know ppl talk about not singing too much when your tired but this was AWESOME and i seemed to have aligned my voice through a lil bit of focus and letting go of too much thought at the same time.

Anyway, I just wanted to know if anyone else has ever experienced something like this?

Cheerio

Chris :]

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  • 3 weeks later...

Of course but the way that it tires is not the same as when singing incorrectly. It doesn't hurt or strain. It's pretty much like overtalking. No one has to learn how to talk correctly and our voice even gets tire after talking for a long time. But the better you become the longer your voice can last.

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