Curbing

[D.Starr]

OH MY GOD IF ANOTHER PERSON POSTS A THREAD ABOUT CURBING I'M GUNNA....

Yeah yeah I know everyone that makes a thread mentions curbing. The thing is I've listened to the sound library at least 30 times already and still can't get it down.

I add a cry and try and sound dopey (not too much) and I try and establish a hold before each note like it says.

I mainly think it's the vowels the way I pronounce the vowels and the way the library pronounce the vowels seem too alien to me. The way I pronounce words and the way the library produces the vowels to me are different. They sound different to how I should be saying them. I'll probably post a few links.

I wanted to attempt curbing after hearing Jonpall's impressive singing abilities in another thread.

I add support, I attempt the vowel but still crunch up around E4 ish. The whiny baby cry is also hard form e to do because I listened to Jonpall's version that erupted into "in the name of love" and that is also too American for my voice and to me sounds different in British.

Help?

[jonpall]

Right now, for some reason, I'm having more luck doing the curbing vowels as an english speaking person would say them and NOT how they sound in the CVT library :)

[D.Starr]

Hahaha I guess it's a personnel experience and experiment, though because I ain't sure if this is right I don't wanna stray away from the library and how they demonstrate them.

I try the cry and it really sounds.. kinda stupid. I add crys at certain times and they seem fine and stylistic but I can't get past E4. Bugging me.

[stew503]

Hi,

Having never worked with CVT or having access to the library - I do not know what "language" the vowels are in or if they are "American" english or otherwise (feel free to send me examples - am willing to listen and assist). I'll have at look at the CVT definitions, but will likely choose to use Miller's, Reid's, Husler and my own methods based on my world.

I work with English, German, or French - I only get on with "some" of the Italian. Being English myself you will have seen me type as ee (keen) .. etc etc etc and I mostly work in English (British english).

As per my other post - I do refer to use of changing a vowel within a word based on your own tone (which I have not yet heard in the issue you have). I do say that vowel and tongue modification is an individual thing. Hey, for all I know you may have a tonsil 2mm larger on the left than Jonpall's (laughs).

Thus I would say post you issues in mp3 and lets listen to your problems. You did say when I pronounce words ... Are you talking words, or are you talking vowels (because these clicky thinks get in the way) ?

Regards

Stew

[Estef]

Hi D.Starr, you are probably right that the pronunciation of the vowels might be hindering you. You have to actually make the vowels the way they sound on the audio instead of using the words. The book does say that you have to learn the vowels EXACTLY the way they sound and that the examples of how they sound are only a guide but they are not the way they actually sound. This is most true with I as in sit which doesn't really sound like I as in sit but is closer to EE as in see but not exactly like that. Kind of like in between I and EE. Forget abut the words and work on memorizing the actual vowels, even when you wouldn't pronounce them as that in regular speech. You could also post a clip of you attempting the vowels so we can tell you if you are doing them correctly. The "hold" or "cry" thing shouldn't sound too strong, more like a person complaining of a stomachache (or a child complaining). Higher up, lighten it a little because if it's too strong, it will be harder to take further up. And practice songs using vowels at first, especially higher up so that you are not hindered by the actual words. Then you can switch to the lyrics but trying to alter the vowels to I, UH or O. Always. At least until you can really master curbing and they you can try altering them VERY SLIGHTLY, but I'm not at that stage yet so I won't give you advice on that ;)

[stew503]

Hmmm

I'm very interested in this portion;

This is most true with I as in sit which doesn't really sound like I as in sit but is closer to EE as in see but not exactly like that. Kind of like in between I and EE.

in ipa we have as in ee (keen) Liebe (German) and we have 'I' as in (thin) ich (German). Does CVT differentiate between the two ? to me these are two diferent sounds and should be worked with accordingly.

Interesting ... Send me details and possibly post on the CVT forum (or ask a CVI person) to comment on this.

Stew

just edited with the ... edited AGAIn as the forum didn;t like CAPS in the ipa. the 'I' should be [Caps I]

[Estef]

Hi stew503, there's a post on the CVT forum as to why they don't use IPA to show how the vowels should sound, and it's better if you read it than me trying to explain it Pretty much what Cathrine is trying to avoid is confusion, because some people will pronounce words differently even when they are all native speakers of the same language. And the CVT vowels have a set of reference words in different languages, but then again, they are only references since what us CVTers do is produce the vowel sounds the way they are shown in the sound library, whether your native language is English, Spanish, German, etc. So for all languages, the CVT vowels have to be pronounced the same way. Notice that the chart that is included is only a reference of words in different languages, it's really not THAT hard to understand as some people have pointed out. Pretty much it's this:

In the higher part of the voice, the vowels for each mode go like this:

Neutral with air: all vowels

Neutral without air: EH (as in stay), AH (as in far), OO (as in you)

Curbing: I (as in sit), UH (as in hungry), O (as in woman)

Overdrive: EH (as in stay), OH (as in so)

Edge: I (as in sit), EH (as in stay), A (as in and), OE (as in herb)

I remember someone said that the chart on this post on CVT looks like a chemistry chart, but again, it's only used as a reference of how each vowel is found in different languages:

http://forum.completevocalinstitute.com/viewtopic.php?t=5420

Edited to add: the explanation of why IPA isn't used in CVT isn't on this post, I'll try to find it somewhere...

Edited again: OK here I found another useful post on the CVT forum about vowels and why they don't use IPA...

http://forum.completevocalinstitute.com/viewtopic.php?t=5377&highlight=ipa

More on vowels as taught by CVT:

http://forum.completevocalinstitute.com/viewtopic.php?t=4142

[D.Starr]

Yeah the word Keen and Sit have different sounds to them. the Sit is much shorter and sounds more like the beginning of ee, Keen is the same as see (the "I" part).

http://www.truploader.com/view/138235 (box.net seems to be down)

Though I feel I can sing higher, at times when I sing I feel I go higher than E4. Maybe my voice isn't tenor quality?

[stew503]

Blackstar,

Thanks for this, am seeing where there is a "mod" to ipa and the extension to 14 or so languages, thus makes CVT attractive to multi country.

I see that they have "EE", rather than ipa , but still use the German word Liebe. I think the idea of multi language is good, I would say (and I do believe this is a forum entry) is this difference in entities of learning and "descriptions" used in each world estill, CVT, TVS, Classical ..

Possibly ... if CVT put an ipa symbol to the most common vowels - it may be adopted more in a classical / theatre world, because we appear to use the same words, be it in German, Italian or French, but in ipa speak.

Going back to your bit;

I as in sit but is closer to EE as in see but not exactly like that. Kind of like in between I and EE.

Surely there should be a difference in the sound library as an "I" should be sit in the library as CVT defines "EE" as (s)ee.

interesting as I would be interested to hear the difference as I see the same words used, but what people are saying is that "possibly" the sound library in some areas may be the issue.

post an "I" and then post an "EE" and lets hear.

Maybe that's for a different posting as this one is for D.Stars curbing and another post may spark some good discussion.

Stew

wow edit - people were posting and it appears I have lots to read. :-)

[Ronron]

If you are anything like me, thinking " cry " isn't nearly radical enough to trigger the behaviour.

Think PAIN, MOAN, SOB (yeah, in caps). Otherwise you'll end up in a " sad neutral ". What do you do when you are crying, like for real ? sobbing ? coughing too, it's about the same thing happening, which is why CVT says to establish a hold via coughing without actually coughing. But this can be confusing too, so you need to remember that you're not singing while refraining a cough, you need not push air to maintain the hold, you just need to hold on to this feeling. And no matter what you do, you will still need to lighten the tone as you ascend the scales.

Also, post a sample, you may be very close but overdoing the hold or something.

For stew : I believe CVT's vowels aren't necessarily the English vowels. They aim for a specific vocal tract shape more than a specific vowel.

Edit : As always, I take yeaaars to post, and you have provided a sample. I feel slow

Edit bis :

Neutral without air: EH (as in stay), AH (as in far), OO (as in you)

You can do every vowels in Neutral without air. Some are harder, though. Eh and Ah are actually in the ' some are harder ' according to the book.

[Estef]

Hi again,

D.Starr, you are not doing the vowels correctly for curbing. I recorded myself doing the Curbing vowels (or my take on them). I tried to make them sound as close to the CVT sound library as possible, since I don't think they would appreciate my posting a clip from the actual sound library.

Stew503,

I also recorded EE as in Sit (which is not a curbing vowel) so you can hear the difference as per CVT. As it's not a curbing vowel, I switch to neutral higher up.

Please note that I have a very bad cold and am very very congested and have a lot of phlegm so it might not be a pleasing sound after all

http://www.box.net/shared/tqncpxhfal for EE (not a curbing vowel)

http://www.box.net/shared/pgga1ycgt8 for I

http://www.box.net/shared/4mrj30bsgh for O

http://www.box.net/shared/vjro5nk33l for UH

[Estef]

Same thing for me here, it seems we are all online and I post something and see that a lot of people have posted something else... It actually happens all the time to me, people will think I'm very slow hahaha...

[stew503]

D.Star - thanks for posting your mp3 - i'll sit down on the piano tomorrow (a piano you ask...).

Initial thoughts are you have quite a common problem and one I see / hear frequently. for now I would like to hear a CVT "ah", ipa [a] (apologies for my keyboard), from C4 to C5 and an "oo" ipa from C4 to C5.

I then want you to put cvt aside for a second. Then post (or append to the mp3) a bim, bam, bim, bam, bim, bam, bim, bam from C5 down to C4, or maybe a C4 jump to D5 and down the scale back to C4 on .... mum or bim.

My thoughts would be .. that on a bim, bam down the scale you are able to hold key, however on the vowel up the scale you are not and have a break (which is what the mp3 shows).

There are plenty of exercises for this, I "again" don't know of them in CVT world (again - someone from a CVT world -please post your thoughts and exercises for the break), but can assist in my world, which would consist of vowel mod through the scale and volume swells on the scale.

Can someone in CVT world post the "I" (possibly the library file), as I hear modification from I to ee (which is what Blackstar said), or a CVT person to comment on this ...I. because is this is an "I" as in German Ich, it should be more "i" than "ee".

Thanks

Stew

[D.Starr]

Hmm the Sit - I vowel sounds like Ay/Ey to me...

Thanks for the individual vowels though I shall study them.

[Estef]

Hey Stew, again, we seem to have posted at the same time, I recorded my take on the curbing vowels plus EE. ;)

[Estef]

Edit bis :

Neutral without air: EH (as in stay), AH (as in far), OO (as in you)

You can do every vowels in Neutral without air. Some are harder, though. Eh and Ah are actually in the ' some are harder ' according to the book.

You're right, I'll have to go back to that part of the book ;)

[stew503]

Blackstar,

http://www.box.net/shared/pgga1ycgt8 for I

Do you feel this mods towards [e], chaos .. the aaaaa sound, it starts a definite I, but I feel mods. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on where you think your tongue is when singing this.

i.e. do you feel there is a "lift" and I mean small, tiny, small lift in the front blade part of the tongue and do you "feel" the vowel tone in the upper part of your oropharynx or lower down.

I would say that if it's high it's modded to a [e], chaos and if it's lower then its definitely an I.

Would like to know your "sensation" on that vowel.

[D.Starr]

For me... I can feel the difference to the EE configuration than the I that kinda sounds like EY to me. The tongue is not riding high on I than it is on E.

[Ronron]

I as in sit is veeeery close to the é vowel we have in French, as in thé, café, nez, etc...

[D.Starr]

I'm finding this scale from C4 to C5 hard. I keep stauing in head voice when descending the scale. It's weird I don't usually have this problem. The amount of errors and kinks in my singing is frustrating... where's that iron?

[Estef]

Hi Stew, I looked at the mirror right now while singing the I and didn't see any movement or lift in my tongue. Though I have to say that the I is harder to me than the UH, and hearing the clip back, I do feel I went from a more "open" vowel to a little bit more closed on towards the end so there might have been some slight movement. There shouldn't be, though. I'd say that the later part of the clip is more accurate to the CVT I sound. I do feel it's higher up, like the sound is going between my soft and hard palate. I recorded the I again, but with only three sounds instead of the whole scale, the sound is more even like that and I didn't feel or see any movement in the tongue now. The tongue is positioned between the EH (stay) and the EE (see).

http://www.box.net/shared/x42v26j41c -- I as in sit, second take

[ronws]

I watched a youtube video where Sadolin was going through the basics of CVT, including the modes. Which included "curbing." As some have noted, certain vowel sounds are associated with curbing. Those vowel sounds are made, in speach, with the some action of the tongue, I have notice. Either a rise in the back, a flattening, or a raising of the tip. It seems to me that the only one that allows a dopey sound is uh. As for crying, that is best done with long i as in rise and ah as in father.

[Seth]

I think this thread helped me figure it out this whole curbing thing. Dopey and Cryey? That works really well. Try adding the dope before the cry perhaps? I think it's working form me.

[Ronron]

Fortunately, we have vocalpower's video to help you ! He calls it middle voice, CVT calls it curbing, others call it cry, in the end the name doesn't really matter.

Also, I listened to your sample, and your vowels aren't right. They are far too opened. You use a mixture of Oh (so) and o (woman) for your o, and a mixture of i and eh for your i. Your uh as in hungry is wrong too, it's a mixture of o and oh.

Let your tongue rise a bit, place the sound behind the soft palate, use a more closed shade of vowel, and let your tone lighten and you're good to go. Do not hesitate to exaggerate the cry sound.

If I have the time and room, I'll try to register the vowels tomorow (or what I think are the right vowels anyway).

[stew503]

Hi,

Right, I hear the change in quality at G4 mostly - depending on vowel you sang changed F4, G4 and A4.

As you are CVT'ing - I would ask Blackstar or other CVT'ers to give exercises for break at this point. I'll listen to what they have to say before I enter, as whilst vowel I is also currently being discussed on this link.

I say this due to, at the moment ... you may need more vowel work in the CVT arena rather than me coming in with vocal volume swelling, staccato and bilabial exercises.

On previous post, I wrote;

I then want you to put cvt aside for a second. Then post (or append to the mp3) a bim, bam, bim, bam, bim, bam, bim, bam from C5 down to C4, or maybe a C4 jump to D5 and down the scale back to C4 on .... mum or bim.

My thoughts would be .. that on a bim, bam down the scale you are able to hold key, however on the vowel up the scale you are not and have a break (which is what the mp3 shows).

.

There was method to the madness here and this is the use of "b". in a nutshell (and i'm not going to go into the technical - so no comments please :/), it creates a millisecond hold of air before the "b" emerges. This b enables me to hear the I ipa and thus I can hear what's happening.

I would also have you going bi, bi, bi, bi, bi for a good few times, and then change this to bi, bi, bi, i, i, i, i, i.

you will notice that ... eventually ... over time the tongue will get use to being where it should be for an i.

Blackstar -

The tongue is positioned between the EH (stay) and the EE (see) for I.

...

An "EH" sits a little higher than an I, but EH is more open and there is a tiny, tiny change in mouth position ... hmmmm ... (more discussion needed ... maybe a new thread),

...

Blackstar;

Hi Stew, I looked at the mirror right now while singing the I and didn't see any movement or lift in my tongue.

you wouldn't see movement - it was tiny, tiny, tiny. But are you aware of a tiny change around the lateral border ?. some people may be aware of it. Would like to know if you can feel the tongue lateral border slightly move, if you vocalise the "difference" in vowel.

Ronron.

For stew : I believe CVT's vowels aren't necessarily the English vowels. They aim for a specific vocal tract shape more than a specific vowel.

i'm not talking English - i'm talking ipa as I could have written them in English, French, German or Italian. Blackstar wrote on her post about why CVT doesn't use ipa, however ... for the common cardinal vowels (11 possibly 12 of them (not all 18) -OR ...even the primary 8 ...), maybe this could be included as to start bridging the gap between methods. <--- I would be interested to know their thoughts on this.

quite a post, but many people to post too.