D.Starr Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 So... I've kind of mastered the F4 on the scale and wish to move further up and I'm reaching A4 and B4. I've been listening to a lot of artist and their takes on the notes, some are lighter some are a little deeper, not too deep. The only way I can approach it is in a falsetto-ish mode. Should I work on head voice around A4 upwards and try and darken the colour of it so it blends nicely with the G4? Or is there another way to attack it? I'm finding I'm beginning to tighten back up around G4, F4 no strain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Starr Posted May 1, 2011 Author Share Posted May 1, 2011 That's the big problem. The teachers in my area took me for a run. I never learnt anything from then. From me viewing various threads, singing and practicing I've learnt way more than what they said. Internet lessons are way too expensive for me to even consider, even if the exchange rate from sterling to dollar is strong. My problem area is around F4 upwards. I can sing F4 at times and then times it can be strained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted May 1, 2011 Share Posted May 1, 2011 D, your own words give a clue to the problem. Your F4 can be strained. Whatever note you sing should not involve strain. Some tension, yes. We experience tension both sitting and walking. But strain, that's something else. From the words of the last century, the easy is usually the correct way, i.e., the least strain or no strain. So, yeah, you are probably too heavy in the attack, such as resonating as if you were still in chest. Let the note lighten. You can beef it back up with vowel mod and relaxing a smidge (what I like to think of as slightly de-tuning.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted May 2, 2011 Share Posted May 2, 2011 without a sample it's pretty hard to help i.m.o. ...whatever you do, start with a nice open, (mouth open as if to yawn) relaxed throat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronron Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 Your issue is very common, D.Starr, but we need something more precise than " I can't ". What do you do exactly ? Do you have a sample of failure ? If you do not provide more informations, we are left playing guess games If the F4 is strained, it is because you force it happen. That is, your approach is too heavy/you're pulling chest. You have to let the tone lighten up, let the resonnance shift towards your soft palate. Try to go for a sound that is less deep and if it helps you, you can try to decrease the volume a little bit too (that is what chanteurmoderne advocates, along with a little bit of cry). You WILL be able to colour it however you like later on. I know others will disagree with this, but quite simply.. they're wrong.. lmao While you are entitled to your opinion, try to at least get it right : Even in the classical world, there is more than one way to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Fraser Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 I've kind of mastered the F4 on the scale and wish to move further up and I'm reaching A4 and B4. I've been listening to a lot of artist and their takes on the notes, some are lighter some are a little deeper, not too deep. The only way I can approach it is in a falsetto-ish mode. Should I work on head voice around A4 upwards and try and darken the colour of it so it blends nicely with the G4? Or is there another way to attack it? D.Starr: Its good to hear that you are making progress. Bringing the F into your comfort zone is a great first step. If there is still strain going past F, then the balance of laryngeal muscle action and exhalation force is not yet right... likely too heavy. But, without hearing you, its not possible to be sure. In the absence of a clip, here is a short list of the things to check as you approach the C4-G4 range in an upward direction: 1) Can you do coordinated, balanced onsets on all the vowels in this range. 2) Does the tone have at least moderate twang or focus? 3) Can you siren G3 to G4 smoothly and without strain on a V or Z consonant 4) Same question for dark OO and EE vowels, sung with the lips pursed forward I hope this helps, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Starr Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 D.Starr: Its good to hear that you are making progress. Bringing the F into your comfort zone is a great first step. If there is still strain going past F, then the balance of laryngeal muscle action and exhalation force is not yet right... likely too heavy. But, without hearing you, its not possible to be sure. In the absence of a clip, here is a short list of the things to check as you approach the C4-G4 range in an upward direction: 1) Can you do coordinated, balanced onsets on all the vowels in this range. 2) Does the tone have at least moderate twang or focus? 3) Can you siren G3 to G4 smoothly and without strain on a V or Z consonant 4) Same question for dark OO and EE vowels, sung with the lips pursed forward I hope this helps, Yeah I can siren comfortably but I start to edge more to head voice and this is not what I want I guess. So I begin to pull up more chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Starr Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 http://www.box.net/shared/ben5td6fkq A small snippet, all that is pretty much C4 and above the No is an F4 i think? I feel no strain but slight tension in the soft palate region, it's not a great deal of tension. I tried to make it lighter (not in the recording) to hit a G4 but I find I flip into falsetto. EDIT http://www.box.net/shared/hh99s23xqi Found a sample of a song that was a G4, I think, and tried to hit it. No strain just feel like I'm shouting more than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Fraser Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 http://www.box.net/shared/ben5td6fkq A small snippet, all that is pretty much C4 and above the No is an F4 i think? I feel no strain but slight tension in the soft palate region, it's not a great deal of tension. I tried to make it lighter (not in the recording) to hit a G4 but I find I flip into falsetto. EDIT http://www.box.net/shared/hh99s23xqi Found a sample of a song that was a G4, I think, and tried to hit it. No strain just feel like I'm shouting more than anything. D.Starr: The first clip was nicely twangy, but it seems to me that you let go some of that as you went to the F. The 2nd clip is much less twangy, but pretty solid. It was only a tiny bit yelly. If you add some twang to it, it will get rapidly better. Overall, I would suggest that you back off 15-20% in volume, but make it just as solid, a full, twangy, but softer sound. If you do that, you won't have to think 'lighter' to add some notes on the top. They will just feel like a continuation of what you have going below. I hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Starr Posted May 3, 2011 Author Share Posted May 3, 2011 Hmm OK I'ma go play with this, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 aldertate, why the attitude buddy? we're just trying to help and learn from one another? if you feel he's not entirely correct all you have to do is comment... not attack the guy....right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 3, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 3, 2011 Yeah I can siren comfortably but I start to edge more to head voice and this is not what I want I guess. So I begin to pull up more chest. Yes you DO want head voice, you just dont want to phonate Twang vocal mode in Head Voice... part of truly getting this comes with learning that head voice and falsetto (that sound your trying to avoid), is not the same thing.... realizing that you can sing in the head voice, the same resonant placement that Falsetto sits in, with a big, "boomy", chest-like result that I know your trying to get after... thats what all singers are trying to achieve... we all have the same challenge, "how do I get to my head voice without breaking or choking... and then once Im there, how do I sing without sounding like a little girl"... Thats what 85% of this is all about!! Again, stop avoiding the head voice... go there.. and if that means you are singing in falsetto for a short period of time as you calibrate the timing and resonant placement required to truly learn how to bridge the registers, then that is fine. While Falsetto is not a vocal mode we use in our singing very often, it is a vocal mode we use all the time in our training. In your development, it is used to help you to calibrate the timing and the resonant placements of your bridging/head voice development/work. Your statement above indicates to me that you are still confused about the difference between Falsetto vs Head Voice... please watch this video I produced earlier this year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow4VnbIezF4 And then if I had a chance to work with you over the internet for 1-3 lessons, we would work on the Siren workouts that are in "The Four Pillars of Singing", my training system... which is probably one of the best workouts in the world for helping singers get this bridging and eventual, head voice singing timed right, coordinated and set up with big, "boomy" formants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronron Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 D.Starr : In addition to Robert's post, you also might want to check this video of him demonstrating bridgeing : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8zroG9QWNc Based on your previous... ill advice... I'm not too concerned..lmao... anyways.. it's time for me to go work on the passagio some more.. I'll make sure to lighten my tone by shifting resonance towards my SOFT Palate... Hahahhaa.. Thank you for the laugh... I might have to share this one.. .lmao Well... The truth is... I can back up my claims. But can you, instead of defaulting to ad hominem ? roflmaogcb, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Robert raised a good point. "Help keep from sounding like a girl." Which girl? How about a couple from the Runaways... like Lita Ford and Joan Jett. Those girls have sounds that are pretty cool. And I think, from my psychological standpoint, that Ronron is right, you get lighter as you go higher. And I would add to that that you should resonate in the right places. The mind is good at being a monitor. If your tone is loud enough, your breath will adjust to maintain that. And that's where going lighter helps. As you get used to singing your upper notes without strain, then you can experiment with tone and you gain volume with resonance. The character of tone in a voice is not from the vocal folds. Those actually make small sounds. What gives a tone its character and volume is resonance. And that is different with each individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 4, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 4, 2011 AlderTate: ... Robert's bridging a classical background into the popular styles, and he's trying to do it, in my opinion, in a way that isn't coveting the classical sound. But it's not going to allow a singer to sing with their full voice, but that's not his aim... he's trying to keep aspiring pop/rock/metal singers from destroying their voices, and my hat's off to him for that. However, without finding the full voice, a singer will never know their full potential, or dynamic range. As those are impossible without having complete freedom that comes from being able to sing with their full voice. Bro, with all due respect, you couldn't be more wrong in regards to your analysis of what "Robert's aim" is and what my students are learning. TVS can be applied to any genre and in fact, the more I do this, the more I find myself coming full circle to a lot of Classical principles in my training such as, the idea of working on the onsets (Pioneered by Richard Miller... do you know who he was?), the "Lift Up / Pull Back" idea is actually very much inspired by "The Voice of The Mind" a book written by Edgar F. Herbert-Caesari... this is a book that discusses the old Bel Canto methods of prior centuries, but fuses it with with 'modern' (1940's) science and the recent work we are doing at TVS to help students learn how to dump the larynx to get a "boomier" formant in the head voice is also very much a Classical principle. Recently, as my pedagogy develops, my students actually are sounding more and more Classical at times... but that doesnt mean Im teaching classical. Its just good, time tested formants and physiology that can be applied to any genre'. I present to thee, the videos below. I apologize for the little bit of feedback on this performance, I wanted to use my sponsors mic, the RODE M1, which meant I had to turn up the gain and it was a little too hot... but these demonstration videos are fully intended to be "live", no over dubs... as it was in the moment... a little feedback or a few "chirps" of the voice from time to time will be heard... but hey, nobody every said TVS was easy... not even for me sometimes. I wanted the new demo videos to be real and show all the humanity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9USjg_GI6iM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqOPMVTmc_c http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYNS0uB_23Y&feature=related AlderTate , do you have any files or content we could enjoy of you singing? Please,... share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Starr Posted May 4, 2011 Author Share Posted May 4, 2011 Digress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 4, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 4, 2011 Did I digress? Sorry... I thought I read something about how Im not helping people to sound "full" in the head voice... well anyways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 5, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 5, 2011 No, don't worry about being 'heavy handed'.. I inadvertently hurt your feelings with my honesty... Maybe you've never fully freed your voice? I dunno... post something classical... that would be a great indicator of your tech. Regards, Russ LOL! SERIOUSLY, I THINK THATS FUNNY. Ya, I confess, I never freed my voice before? huh? Russ, Classical singing requires special stylistic coaching. I have sang Classical before in my past, but Im not training as a Classical singer right now, nor do I have any of my old art songs under my belt currently. There is a performance of "Gethsemane" online, just run a google for it, Im getting tired of this... But anyways, I am still not grasping your point? Anyways, thanks for the laugh and anytime you want to do a shoot out, let me know. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 5, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 5, 2011 Russ, I am listening to your Handel right now. "Where You Walk"? Russ, I performed this song in front of about 250 at the University of Miami as part of my jury (testing) in 1992. Ive learned this piece and have performed it live. Nice selection. Quite beautiful and great for developing dynamics, legato and interpreting romantic beauty. Im a bit confused, this version your showing us is a voice lesson, so is this what you wanted us to hear? Russ, you have a beautiful voice and should be singing. Understand that the sound your making in that audio clip is very much in the style of Classical and has formant and resonance that is different then what I am doing these days and its intentional. I dont want to sing with all that weight, from the "bottom up"... been there , did that... no thanks. If you enjoy that, cool. When you sing like that, you can not bridge. Russ, I think its likely that when your singing metal, you probably constrict a lot, is this a fair statement? I think your misunderstanding what "resonance" means Russ. It doesnt mean singing with big Classical weight from the chest? My singing is exceedingly resonant, it just resonates in a much brighter and more free formant. I want to "float" when I sing, not feel anchored. Your Iron Maiden was flat and you were constricting on those belts. I recommend that you keep studying your Classical singing Russ, because If your going to step into more rock and metal, your going to have to really learn how to bridge and stop constricting when singing up and around E4+. Then you can begin the process of learning how to sing in your head voice and come to terms with what your Classical training is and what it is not doing for you. Hope this helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 5, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 5, 2011 Now its getting cool, for sure. Victim of Changes? Bring it on vocal athlete. And we will add "Gethsemane" from Jesus Christ Superstar. You better get chopp'n. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 5, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 5, 2011 Well I think vowels are just the beginning with Gethsemane... you need to interpret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshual Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 you guys should stop taking steroids, too much testosterone lol but please create a topic for the shoot out ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofleren Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 This is getting scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akarawd Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Not scary at all, in fact it's great 'cause it's not about who is a better singer ; it's about demonstrating 2 different approaches over the same tracks. I hope you guys set some rules as to how this will be conducted ; eg. version of song, type of mic, distance from mic, gain, comp and effects settings etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted May 5, 2011 Administrator Share Posted May 5, 2011 Not scary at all, in fact it's great 'cause it's not about who is a better singer ; it's about demonstrating 2 different approaches over the same tracks. I hope you guys set some rules as to how this will be conducted ; eg. version of song, type of mic, distance from mic, gain, comp and effects settings etc etc Well I dont have a lot of time, so Ill just track my parts and be done with it... your right, its just for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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