Can baritones get tenor notes?

[VideoHere]

i think you just answered your own question.

[jonpall]

Yeah.. there's a world of difference between a C5 sung with full resonance, and a reedy, shrill, effect laden one. lmao.. And... fwiw pav's upper voice technique wasn't all that... great artist, beloved by millions, but.. technically he's a glorified crooner...

Enjoy Pav's artistry and passion, but don't look to him to be the end all be all technician.. for that... you need someone like Bjorling...

Ingemisco.. showing Bjorling's complete mastery of voice.. one voice throughout his entire range..

There may have been some flaws in Pavarotti's technique, but to call him a glorified crooner just shows how little you know about singing. lmao.

[jonpall]

You can't just mathematically compute who is the best singer. First of all, singing is not just about technique. Secondly, if you consider only the technical part, that's tough too, because technique consists of many things. Pavarotti hit thousands of great sounding high notes throughout his career. So, even though perhaps something in his technique could have been done better, a crooner he wasn't. lmao.

lmao.

[jonpall]

Here's a good Pavarotti link:

http://autopartsmiami.net/luciano-pavarotti-ah-mes-amis-live-at-the-met-1972/

"The thing about Pavarotti is that he threw those high C’s as the most natural thing in the world. With every other tenor you can feel the effort. The notes just flow as easily as if he were singing twinkle twinkle little star in the shower."

[jonpall]

"Luciano Pavarotti’s first ever performance of La fille du regiment at the Met. The audience goes wild, quite rightly too. This performance took place on the 17th of February 1972. From act I of Donizetti’s La fille du regiment Live 1972 – The Metropolitan opera orchestra conducted by Richard Bonynge Here are some parts of a review about this performance: ”The show was constantly being stopped Thursday night at the Metropolitan Opera, where a new production of Donizetti’s “La Fille du Régiment” was staged. Joan Sutherland stopped the show at her entrance and several times thereafter. Luciano Pavarotti stopped the show with his first aria and, later, with the “Quel desin” aria, the one with the nine – high C’s.” ^ The reviewer named the aria wrongly of course ”In the last two years Luciano Pavarotti has come up fast, and today he is the reigning tenor in the lyric side of the Italian repertory. God has kissed his vocal cords, as he has said. This is a voice on the Gigli order, though used with more taste and musicianship. He sings the B’s and C’s as though he is not afraid of them, and the voice has an absolutely unbroken scale.”"

[aldertate]

There may have been some flaws in Pavarotti's technique, but to call him a glorified crooner just shows how little you know about singing. lmao.

That came from a direct quote from someone. To paraphrase, "One should never speak Pavarotti's name in the same breath as Bjorling. Bjorling was a great opera singer, while Pavarotti should have stayed in Italy as a crooner." They were a family friend of Bjorling's. It was one of the best quote I'd ever heard. Other singers have said 'not to scream like Pavarotti' in the upper voice... that gentleman sang at the met for over 20 years and was a highly respected teacher at a prestigious school. He was also a friend of Gigli's.

If you can't hear the difference between Bjorling and Pavarotti, then you have no ear.

Look noob.. listen to mid 60s-mid 70's pavarotti... then listen to anything since... say.. 1990.. you'll hear a distinct difference...

Then... listen to Alfredo Kraus.. at any time... then Bjorling... Even within the classical world there are differences in technique and they affect a singer's long-term health.

Now go do some more google searches since your ear isn't trained... lmao...

[jonpall]

My ear isn't trained? You're not a noob yourself? (having "discovered" the "ultimate" and "only" way to sing in the passagio just recently.) You're not a universally disliked fuckin' idiot?

lmao!!

[rofleren]

@ aldertate

Please stop with all that "noob, lmao" etc.

It's getting on many people's nerves.

[jonpall]

aldertate, you severely overestimate your knowledge of vocal technique. lol.

What you're saying about Pavarotti can be likened to someone stating that if a woman isn't as pretty as Helen from Troy, she's a butterface who belongs in the gutter - Björling being Helen here. Only a purist, classical snob would state that Pavarotti's technique "wasn't all that great" - kind of like you've could have done so much better yourself. lmao. But hey, throwing insults back and forth is what you like so don't count on me giving you the satisfacting of answering you back a lot in the future. What are you, five? That's how you're behaving here, unlike anyone else. lmao. I thought you were an old dude, from your profile and older posts, lol.

[jonpall]

"One should never speak Pavarotti's name in the same breath as Bjorling. Bjorling was a great opera singer, while Pavarotti should have stayed in Italy as a crooner."

Man! I really dislike people who speak and think like this. The notion of someone being "worthy" and another being "not worthy". Idiots and nothing else.

[aldertate]

"One should never speak Pavarotti's name in the same breath as Bjorling. Bjorling was a great opera singer, while Pavarotti should have stayed in Italy as a crooner."

Man! I really dislike people who speak and think like this. The notion of someone being "worthy" and another being "not worthy". Idiots and nothing else.

The guy who said that to me, was a serious fan opera. He was one of those that studied the nuances of the performances. He, like others, wanted to hear a performance that adhered closely to the composer's score, while maintaining a great technique. There are a lot of serious opera fans that hold similar views.

In his defense, he has a valid, if hyperbolic, point. Others, that sang at the met for decades, held similar views. They live in a world that few of us will ever know... I respect their opinions, and can see what they're talking about. I don't fully understand their outrage, unless its because that others might try approaching singing in the same way that someone like a Pavarotti or a Di'Stefano did. They really disliked that stuff...

At the same time, Bjorling's technique was light years better. I'm sure they preferred Dame Joan Sutherland's technique over Maria Callas's technique...though since we weren't talking about sopranos they didn't mention that Callas should have stayed in Italy as a crooner lol..

I really like Pav's nesun dorma.... I think the whine he gets is perfect for that song. Though it's not Bjorling-esque. Bjorling's approach to the top is incredible.

fwiw there's still a cult of Bjorling fans. They even have a page on facebook.

[jonpall]

Insulting without support is what you a LOT of aldertate. What the hell are you talking about? Yes, sometimes you support your comments but that's a rarity. You come off as someone who had a really bad experience with god-knows-what many years ago and is bitter about it. One can smell it miles away. You seem to have SOMETHING to offer, SOMETIMES on this forum, so if you could act like a grownup like the others here can, it MIGHT be ok to have you here with us. It seems like you have some issues that we here can't fix. So you can keep a hold of that hanky because I'm sure you do a lot of crying into it on a regular basis.

Now, different people have different opinions on what a "full voice" is. EVEN within classical music, although if you want to limit yourself to their definitions, it does narrow down the options. If you're going for what opera lovers would consider to be a "legit" full voice in the passagio and higher, sure, you could say that there is one sound ideal. It's not shouty, yet it could be said that it sounds a lot like the chest voice. In the passagio and above, the vocal weight is much less than for chest voice. It's not breathy. It has a "dark sound colour", meaning a fairly low larynx and high soft palate. It contains a throat configuration that is similar to what's going on in the throat when you cry or moan, like you have a tummy ache. In order to support a loud, full, resonant sound like this, the air flow has to be very, very little, so you have to use good breath support - to be more precise, the exact correct breath support given the pitch, vowel and volume. You also need to narrow the epiglottis funnel to create that "ring" or "twang" so the voice carries well over an orcestra with a 3k or so overtones. You need to limit your choice of vowels the higher you go up in pitch. Your posture needs to be good, jaw not protruded, lips not puckered, etc. I don't have time to list EVERYTHING you need to do to even get close to a sound which I know you consider to be the "only way to sing". I'm also not an opera singer. Btw. you're not as great singer as you think you are, aldertate.

That's one way to do it and I suppose that this is similar to what you're advocating, although I'm sure you'll use different words to describe it, even if just to be able to say that I "was so wrong" in my description. Now, here's the thing - just within this type of sound - there are many ways to teach how to do it. VERY many ways. F.ex. just in the way you'd describe breath support to a student. Or the "placements" within the throat. Even great classical vocal coaches disagree where the placement and the breath support should be focused. I've heard many talk about "placing the sound in the soft palate". Then I've heard others say that you can "place" your voice anywhere. What you're experiencing and think is "placement" is really just muscle activity/contractions in various muscle groups inside your throat. People who think they're "placing" the tone in their soft palate are probably just simply raising their soft palate and/or narrowing the epiglottis funnel, aka. twanging. People who think they're "placing" the voice anywhere else are probably doing something else. So to sum up, just within this "sound ideal", there are extremely many ways to teach a student how to do it and world renowned vocal coaches - both within the opera world and other genres - disagree on how it's best to coach people to do this. Then you have to factor in that what might work for one person might not work as well for others.

Ok, now lets talk about other possible ways to create, at least a loud sound in the high registers. It might not be aldertate's idea of a "full voice", but I assure that there are many other people who would think so. One way is to simply use the chest configuration up to C5 me and about Eb5 for women. Here, you have to get louder as you go up in pitch, never be breathy and use only the Eh and the Oh vowels (as in "egg" and "so", respectively) - most noticably near the top notes. This is not possible higher than C5 for men and about Eb5 for women. It's also limited in terms of vowel choices and not acceptable in the classical world. However, studies have been made to PROVE that this can be done in a healthy manner throughout a career. It's not a sound that I tend to graviate towards a lot in the high part of the voice, but it's a possibility.

Another method is to lighten the vocal weight and increase twang. Sure, the voice doesn't sound very full, but because of the twang, it will carry over an orcestra although it certainly doesn't have the classical sound ideal. You can darken this sound with a lower larynx to get closer but it probably won't sound similar to an opera singer until you add a cry/moan to the sound, which will add more "body" to the sound and engage more vocal cord closure/cord activity. You can also do a similar thing but twang the crap out of the sound while at the same time have much more vocal weight (some would call this "edge" configuration).

[jonpall]

So, to get the "classical sound ideal", yes, you could say that there is about ONE way to configure your throat and body to produce it. BUT - within that way there is the the classical way, but also other methods that will work for just about any style of singing - pop, rock, blues, r&b, etc. I actually use a couple of variations of this type of singing myself - at least many components of it. Most of those ways have a slightly higher larynx than the classical ones and obviously not Italian vowels and words. But as I said, there are other ways to create full and/or loud tones in the upper register, besides the one you refer to - and within all of those methods there are infinite ways to describe and teach how to do them.

Here's the single most important point: As far as I know, there hasn't been produced a single study that proves that your method is the "best" way to create a "full voice" that's sustainable throughout a career. But I've heard of studies that support the fact that there are SEVERAL ways to do so. I don't have those papers myself but perhaps other people here have them.

Do you have any proofs that this method that you're recommending is the only way to sing in a healthy manner? And don't point out Björling or Krauss or someone and say that "the proof is in the pudding - look at for how many years those guys could sing well". How can you be sure that Pavarottis vocal decline was due to his early "bad technique" and not the fact that he didn't take care of his voice as well as he should have in the latter half of his career, not to mention the fact that he ballooned up to 330 pounds? Don't be a snob man, and hang tight to that hanky. Let us know when you've decided to become a MAN and get back to us. lmao.

[stew503]

Hi,

I'm going to keep this short - don't want to be hugely involved in the bunfight (of which I see a few more posts since writing this). I was expecting a textual bashing for my last post, thank you aldertate for the "balanced" view.

Passagio,

2 voice theorists esp. in classical world and bringing head voice down (has been previously discussed on previous thread (The Ah Vowel).

3 voice theorists (came in around 19th C with invention of Laryngoscope) - Middle voice exercises appropriate.

Use of Vowel - Pitch, Intensity and Vowel - volume swells

Chromatic Vowel Chart

Use of Ng

Covering

Schools that take chest voice WAY!!! to high in the scale (one beef!!!), it can (and frequently does) produce some good singers who can navigate very well (albeit with possibly shorter careers)

Your particular flavour of internet program

Natural talent (Lehmann / Lind)

From another source;

"The Italian School often speaks of 'narrowing the vowels' at the passaggio. ...... The 'narrower mouth opening' with the corners or the mouth rounded into an oval shape will give a singer a much cleaner transition of these registers. The reason for this is simple; the larynx assumes a lower position and the soft palate assumes a higher position."...

Re Ng;

"Take each middle voice phrase and vocalize it on the 'ng' with the root of the tongue wide, not bunched, and the soft palate high. The result will be of a 'ringing tone' which will expand the sound of the middle and lower registers. Keep this feeling while putting the words back into the phrase. The high palated 'ng' will also smooth out the transition from lower head voice into the chest voice."

.

The world changes and concepts of 14th to 21st Century singing have changed. Was the concept of support only created in the 19th C. Is the current use of "belting" incorrect ? (for greater people than me to ever decide), and as times move on and in spectrogram world - are we heading into an electronic era of produce a sound and let me look at the graph to see if it's correct!!

Mr Fraser posted on other thread (The Ah Vowel);

"There is not just one workable approach. Some teachers, even back into the 19th Century, advocated the 'late' passaggio, tenor in chest to A4 for Ah, while others advocated the 'early' passaggio, prepared in E4-F#4. There as beautiful singing from proponents of both approaches then, and there is now."

and one excellent comment ...;

"We are the heirs of confusion started centuries ago!"

...

We could discuss incorrect technique and "extreme exercises" with a great tenor and its nodule damage as a result. We could discuss smoking and singing. But not going to.

Stewart.

Please all, keep it down :)

[VideoHere]

i agree. folks, let's not get so argumentative...we're here to learn and grow and help each other, not bash each other. all of these viewpoints can be expressed fairly without putting anyone down....right?

[aldertate]

I apologize if I came across heavy handed. After witnessing a number of singers damage/destroy their voices I'm very concerned about exposing the pitfalls that come from misinformation.

Singing is challenging enough to learn properly... when someone pursues a misunderstood technique it becomes a tragedy.

[Robert Lunte]

blah blah blah.. would you like a hanky? lol..

I may be disliked because I don't condone crap vocal programs that are a waste of a singer's time and money. I may be disliked because I point out flaws that others don't want to admit to seeing.

Maybe I should type this slower, since it appears comprehension isn't one of your strong suites....

I said... there's only 1 way to go through the passagio with the full voice.. and that's true. I've not heard anyone prove otherwise.. nobody. Show me jonpal... really, show me.. others have said.. there are multiple ways... yet... I don't hear anything ..lol..

Instead of admitting the truth, you'll dodge it and insult... like others.... wahhh..

People come here with serious questions about voice.. they come here for answers... not for people to blow smoke up their asses with bogus information. That's not only incredibly disrespectful, it could lead to permanent damage. You don't like what I have to say, fine... I have no qualms with that... It doesn't change the truth of what I said.. it merely reinforces your inability to face the truth about your own course of study.

So. like I asked ronron... show me how to maintain the full voice (full resonance) through the passagio in multiple ways. Talk is cheap, just simply put up, or like ronron, shut up... it's a simple request.. if I'm an idiot... then prove it to me... I'd love to be proven wrong.

But there's only 1 way to navigate the passagio with the full voice... your face can turn blue denying this, but it won't change this fact.

I've posted links to my stuff multiple times... why not post one of yours that will prove me wrong?

Really, insulting without support.. is pretty weak, wouldn't you say?

ALDERTATE:

... calling people a "noob" and going off again about "crap vocal programs" that you really dont know anything about... that which we already discussed once before is a no go... and god knows what else is in here I do not have time to flush out...

AlderTate, you need to tone down your confrontational disposition on this forum in an ASAP fashion, otherwise I am going to pull the lever and you are going to fall to the bad eggs under the floor. Your tone is not working for this community. Allow me to point out to you that this is a community. Some of the people on this Forum have been here for three years. We have a non-confrontational vibe and standard here we like to maintain and most of the time do. You need to be more respectful of this community. Your in "our home" now and should be more polite... apart from the fact that I tend to agree with most of my colleagues when I say, you really dont understand as much about the world of voice technique, training and such... as you come off. Your both being rude and in a sense, embarrasing yourself a little bit.

Step back, take a breather... read and contemplate what I and others are sharing with you... grow from the TMV experience, not come in here and start barking up a storm with mis-fires.

I do feel you have potential to contribute to our community, figure out how your going to share ideas and argue you points more diplomatically, or you will be vaporized from the TMV Forum.

I refer you to the published Rules of the forum you read when you registered, please read again.

This is a warning...

[Ronron]

Wow Jonpall, I'm amazed by your patience.

[Robert Lunte]

I apologize if I came across heavy handed. After witnessing a number of singers damage/destroy their voices I'm very concerned about exposing the pitfalls that come from misinformation.

Singing is challenging enough to learn properly... when someone pursues a misunderstood technique it becomes a tragedy.

This is ironic, but I think YOUR the one that is pursuing a technique that you are misunderstanding AlderTate... For the most part, these guys know what they are talking about. Classic is important and you can learn a lot from it, but dont make the mistake that too many people make, by concluding that its the "final authority" on how to train the voice. It just simply is not and truth be told... for people that want to do most anything else, other then Classical... it ends up in a disappointment if that is the only way they have learned to sing.

[stew503]

Aldertate post.

I apologize if I came across heavy handed. After witnessing a number of singers damage/destroy their voices I'm very concerned about exposing the pitfalls that come from misinformation.

Singing is challenging enough to learn properly... when someone pursues a misunderstood technique it becomes a tragedy.

..

No problem - and I would like to play Devils advocate here ... Can the last 3 or so posts be deleted (maybe not Ron's) ... Everything under the 17:50 post. Robert - it's your forum - so up to you to decide whether to or not. I think that ... some learnings have been had here already and;

it is useful to have "some" contrasting and even possible extreme posts .. I agree - the way they are worded can be changed (so everyone note )

I agree on some points and .. this is what 'part' of this forum is about is to discuss these 'mis-understood' areas. We have discussed "support" vs. Breath management as well as possibly having a session about where some programs can be made better, that would include several flavours.

I have already posted about CVT and use of ipa, Steven has worked on Vowel mods, other people have discussed "other flavours (SLS, SS .. etc).

It would be valuable to have an differing viewpoint.

A lot of the time - some good comes from it. Occasionally people say in posts about using a different vowel in a word. The forum has use for that - so comments are useful (including yours).

..

"when someone pursues a misunderstood technique it becomes a tragedy"

Agree - and IF some of the greats had published singing programs - there would be damaged voices too.

An example is the use of imagery by a noted singer; "exercise drawing larynx downward powerfully - by imagery of 'Bracing yourself up against a wall with your forehead'".

Was / is this a violent and unnatural procedure which will lead to nodules ?

Another may be Vergine - "every - sing ... Softly" - where would voices be with that teaching.

..

"Singing is challenging enough to learn properly"

Everyone starts somewhere - in a lot of cases, we send kids to choir .. mostly school choir - now is this the best start for them ? Possibly not - but it get's them singing.

Also - for exams ... it's not all classical songs btw. Part C is Musicals and you also have to cover traditional songs too

I also "may" agree that amongst the flavours of programs - some are not for the "starting" out singer. The 'will' to pull chest up to straining point is common in some ... But ... people post on the forum and they get some constructive comments.

So let's discuss.

Stewart

[Robert Lunte]

Aldertate post.

I apologize if I came across heavy handed. After witnessing a number of singers damage/destroy their voices I'm very concerned about exposing the pitfalls that come from misinformation.

Singing is challenging enough to learn properly... when someone pursues a misunderstood technique it becomes a tragedy.

..

No problem - and I would like to play Devils advocate here ... Can the last 3 or so posts be deleted (maybe not Ron's) ... Everything under the 17:50 post. Robert - it's your forum - so up to you to decide whether to or not. I think that ... some learnings have been had here already and;

it is useful to have "some" contrasting and even possible extreme posts .. I agree - the way they are worded can be changed (so everyone note )

I agree on some points and .. this is what 'part' of this forum is about is to discuss these 'mis-understood' areas. We have discussed "support" vs. Breath management as well as possibly having a session about where some programs can be made better, that would include several flavours.

I have already posted about CVT and use of ipa, Steven has worked on Vowel mods, other people have discussed "other flavours (SLS, SS .. etc).

It would be valuable to have an differing viewpoint.

A lot of the time - some good comes from it. Occasionally people say in posts about using a different vowel in a word. The forum has use for that - so comments are useful (including yours).

..

"when someone pursues a misunderstood technique it becomes a tragedy"

Agree - and IF some of the greats had published singing programs - there would be damaged voices too.

An example is the use of imagery by a noted singer; "exercise drawing larynx downward powerfully - by imagery of 'Bracing yourself up against a wall with your forehead'".

Was / is this a violent and unnatural procedure which will lead to nodules ?

Another may be Vergine - "every - sing ... Softly" - where would voices be with that teaching.

..

"Singing is challenging enough to learn properly"

Everyone starts somewhere - in a lot of cases, we send kids to choir .. mostly school choir - now is this the best start for them ? Possibly not - but it get's them singing.

Also - for exams ... it's not all classical songs btw. Part C is Musicals and you also have to cover traditional songs too

I also "may" agree that amongst the flavours of programs - some are not for the "starting" out singer. The 'will' to pull chest up to straining point is common in some ... But ... people post on the forum and they get some constructive comments.

So let's discuss.

Stewart

Stew, when I have other members sending me private emails requesting that I do something about AlderTate's tone and he keeps insisting on calling vocal programs "crap" all the time... that which I happen to be the author and producer of one, ... No, I will not delete my posts Stew. There are times when I have deleted my own posts because I wanted to put a better foot forward, but this is not one of them.

[aldertate]

The king's not wearing any clothes.

[Steven Fraser]

The king's not wearing any clothes.

aldertate: I sure thought Elvis was buried in a nice suit. What happened?

[stew503]

Steven,

I did have a chuckle ...

I though the comment would have ended up with a "Monsieur, I beg your pardon." moment !!! (although did she 'actually' say it )

... Shall we weave the most magnificent fabrics imaginable ? (Connotation)

Stewart

[aldertate]

Your father smelt of elderberries.