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seth riggs working out michael jackson

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actual voice exercises by michael jackson when he was under the tutelage of seth riggs. incredible that we get to hear something like this via you tube. more examples on the site.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zris4q2WOY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZVYenmqdVs

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That's really cool Bob. Michael is a very agile singer. Great technique. I wonder what kind of lessons these were? Sounds like they were on the phone or something.

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Aldertate, would you please sometimes just shut your mouth...

We ALL know on the board your opinions about modern singing methods... No need to write it in every topic....

Thanxs in advance

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Aldertate, would you please sometimes just shut your mouth...

We ALL know on the board your opinions about modern singing methods... No need to write it in every topic....

Thanxs in advance

josh, i don't mind his comments, it's just the way he writes them. i wish he'd have a little more tact and diplomacy.

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aldertate, here I both agree and disagree with you. First of all, if you took the time to read the CVT book, you'd find out that the terms "overdrive", "curbing", "edge" and "neutral" (btw. that's pretty much IT in terms of new terms from CVT - i.e. the CVT vocal modes) have things in common with other more common terms like chest voice, head voice, etc. BUT there are small differences that must have made Catherine Sadoline want to use other terms to describe EXACTLY what she was thinking.

Now that I've disagreed with you, let me agree slightly. Contrary to what many people here thing, CVT has sometimes annoyed ME, even though I now use a lot of ideas from it. In particular, yeah, that new "lingo" got on my nerves a bit. I also didn't really believe in categorizing the voice into vocal modes. For me, I thought of the voice as a continuous thing, not discrete. However, now that I've really taken the time to read about CVT I can see their point. Also, even Steven Fraser has said that the switch between modes happens suddenly, not gradually, even though a good singer can make them merge together seamlessly. My final verdict is that CVT is one of the many good vocal programs out there. I'm not saying it's the best one, but IMO, it's a VERY informative read for people that are interested in how the voice works.

Btw. I think I read somewhere that the reason Bon Jovi can't sing the way he used to is because he went to a classical vocal coach to try to help him with some problems on tour. Classical singing is great, but if you want to go to a classical coach to improve your rock singing, that coach had better understand other types of singing. F.ex. he should not enforce as much lowering of the larynx, just as an example. IMO, if you've been using a very low larynx position for a while and then suddenly try to sing with rasp, it's gonna be very hard and might even hurt your throat.

You say that you "want to help people" who might be on their path to ruining their voices. But what makes you know all about the voice? You're not a vocal coach. You're just a singer like most of the people on this forum. In fact, we have a few very good coaches here - who have already disagreed with you.

Finally, here's something very interesting and I'm not trying to fight you anymore because I don't really see the point. I take my harsh words back and I must admit - you are a good singer, aldertate. Just with an attitude problem, like Axl Rose. Hmmm, one of my favorite singers ... shit. :) And I actually like a lot of the things you write, f.ex. about classical music and find it extremely interesting. You have a lot to give to the forum if you weren't such a prick ;) . Sorry, lol. Anyway, what I was going to say is this:

There are some vocal coaches out there who believe that you will always feel pain in your throat if you're doing something that might damage your voice. I'm not 100% that they're correct, but I have the feeling they are - partly because being aware of pain in my throat for some years now has made me not lose my own voice. Perhaps someone with good knowledge about this might care to comment on that?

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When 95% of musicians use the same terminology, who gains/loses when someone decides to market repackage old things with new terms?

This is unfortunately not the case as far as the voice is concerned. And it's really annoying. I totally understand CVT's need to pick up new terms, because they were virgin of any weight already added to them unlike, for example, falsetto. And I do not agree with everything they said, but the method is handy and has the advantage of explaining how things work. And they have a lot of material on vocal effects, which is enough for me to like the book.

The heart of the problem is that, it's all very feeling based. And only science is helping making things absolute. Not everyone needs this, but coming from a scientific formation, I for one know I need it.

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Um, Jon Bon Jovi CAN'T even REACH the notes anymore - not even with his CLEAN voice, which he uses mostly live these days. Yeah, he probably oversang and strained on tour way back, but if he had had the right coach he'd have a better chance of regaining that great voice of his. I've heard of many rock singers who get a classical vocal coach and then end up RUINING their voices. I don't know if that happened to Jon Bon Jovi, but I think it's fairly likely that he had help from someone who clearly did not understand how to sing rock.

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Btw. that last post of yours was something I enjoyed to read, aldertate. You see, lots of your posts contain very interesting stuff, even though some of it might not be 100% - just as the stuff I, or anyone else here writes. But I would like to hear some comments from very experienced vocal coaches on the comment I made above and will repeat here:

"There are some vocal coaches out there who believe that you will always feel pain in your throat if you're doing something that might damage your voice"

I've had success with this statement as sort of the number one golden rule for singing. But I must admit - I can't be SURE that this is 100% correct. Perhaps no one really knows for sure. Will pain in the throat ALWAYS proceed vocal damage?

Btw. I'd kill for a voice like Steven Tyler's - that's how much I like his "drug produced rasp" ;) . But truthfully, what I want even MORE is to sound like myself - just with great control over my voice, range, rasp, power, feel, etc.

From one prick to another,

Cheers.

;)

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If someone needs steroid shots in the cords... it's essentially over... he wanted money, he made it.. he paid a price for that.. now he has to live with his choices.

If they didn't understand rock vocals, they didn't understand voice... this has nothing to do with classical versus rock... it has to do with good and bad teachers..

You're making connections that aren't there.... and overlooking the obvious... which is what I keep bringing up... bad teachers, bad techniques, bad habits... all are detrimental to the voice.

Kevin Dubrow had a great voice, and he had a classical foundation... nobody would accuse him of being a 'classical singer'.. but the foundation is the same regardless of what style a singer chooses to pursue.

you're talking about bad teachers, bad techniques.. don't confuse them with 'classical versus rock' cause that's a very weak argument. by the time most 'rock' singers get in touch with a coach it's too late.. they've entered the 'damage control' phase... options are limited.

Like I said in other posts... I just heard someone nail the role of Carlotta in Phantom of the opera (with just 2.5years of training). That's musical theater. I've heard singers own jazz styles... and I know from my personal experience that I have a gamut of styles I can sing in... it's all from the same foundation...

Bad teachers are everywhere.... a much higher percentage of bad teachers work in the 'rock' styles than in the classical.

1. definition needed .....fvf = ?

2. russ, i've got a question for you...what specifically constitutes your definition of a bad vocal instructor?

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.... and what Seth Riggs was having him do comes straight out of formal study... listen to Seth's examples... This is where confusion comes into things... when one simple exercise takes on a myriad of names...

A duck is a duck... someone can say it's a Monty, and someone else can say it's Meduhl... but at the end of the day.. it's still just a duck... a simple duck..

I'm not trying to be abrasive, but simplification is the key to learning... pretty much about anything....

Your not trying to be abrasive, but you still continue to be. In particular, we see once again, after asking you two times to refrain from calling vocal training products "crap", you do it again. If I see this again ... or its reported to me, you are gone. Final warning.

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Bob..

1. fvf ... false vocal folds..

if you didn't read my post on good vs bad teachers, before I removed it (for being too wordy).. drop me an email and I'll send it to you.

aldertate AT yahoo DOT com

Good luck with your training. I wish you the best

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Now I can relate to what you're saying, aldertate. We both agree that you need a good vocal teacher that knows his stuff and isn't locked in a school of thought, though I actually think there is an equal number of bad teachers in the classical world as in the rest of the musical worlds.

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My turn to be a pain in the butt ... which professional rock singers have had their voices ruined by receiving some classical training, even later in life? Just wondering. I have seen one other person here say this but no concrete examples. It sounds like a straw boss to knock down, which is a debating tactic, rather than some factual evidence to be presented.

I'll shut up, now.

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