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Is this falsetto or head voice with bad breath support?

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Duchi
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Hello!

I've been practising singing for the last 2 months, and yesterday I tried this song from Soundgarden - Beyond the wheel. When I listened to the record my tone did not have the same quality all the time, sometimes it was resonant, sometimes a bit breathy. So I am asking this question, are these high notes that I am singing in a head voice, or falsetto ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0N1PcphVCk

The high part starts at 1:10, for example around 1:32 my voice sounds thin.

I am still practising on the intonalities and the pronunciation\vowels :)

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I'm not a coach but I have a few comments if I may. Your question is concerning what terminology we use for certain vocal sounds, but I wonder why you're asking the question? Probably, your vocal delivery doesn't sound like you want, and it doesn't feel good to perform.

The fact that it gets harder to sing as the song goes on (and the quality decreases) is an obvious sign that there is vocal strain. You just can't keep this up. I think all singers struggle with this. Sometimes you can't get the sound you want without straining in some way, but that is not sustainable! You'll lose your voice for a couple days or maybe even develop a medical condition such as nodules.

I have to say that there is some good stuff here, that I would be surprised if I could ever do without shredding my voice! However, I think that you can definitely do with some quality voice instruction. There are a lot of good teachers on this forum, and judging from this song, Rob Lunte would probably be perfect for you.

Keep on singing mate.

EDIT: but the answer is, you are singing in "head voice" for the higher part. With a shitload of twang and good support at the start, but I think these two necessary things fade away as you go on.

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Mr Bounce, thanks for the respond, I appreciate it! Now I am sure that it is head voice. Yes, I was not satisfied with my vocals for the high part of this song, because my tone sounded inconsistent and at some places breathy. But it is not from straining or from tired voice, because I am never hoarse or feel pain in my throat after singing, I was pushing and pulling chest in the beginning, but I learned to just let the voice go, and not pretend to sing like somebody else and strain. I think it is just that I should concentrate more on my breath support and finding the right amount of twanging :)

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Hello!

I've been practising singing for the last 2 months, and yesterday I tried this song from Soundgarden - Beyond the wheel. When I listened to the record my tone did not have the same quality all the time, sometimes it was resonant, sometimes a bit breathy. So I am asking this question, are these high notes that I am singing in a head voice, or falsetto ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0N1PcphVCk

The high part starts at 1:10, for example around 1:32 my voice sounds thin.

I am still practising on the intonalities and the pronunciation\vowels :)

these are head voice tones, but i afraid you are constricting and carrying up some of the vocal weight of the chest register. if you are singing for only two months i wouldn't even go near that song right now. those notes have to be launched in your head voice at the onset of the tone and you have to be supporting your ass off.

cornell's a vocal god, with a significant amount of training and development behind him.

vocal exercise required!

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Ok, thanks, I'll have that in mind and will try to exercise more.

okay, but not just to achieve those parts in that song...don't spot train, exercise the entire voice! b.t.w., exercising the lower voice helps build the upper.

when i was young and in rock bands, they made me sing songs way over my head both in terms of range and strength. when you're young with no clue of voice training, you do stupid, risky things that got me absolutely nowhere. i did them anyway, litterally screaming my ass off....don't be a fool, like i once was.

bob

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okay, but not just to achieve those parts in that song...don't spot train, exercise the entire voice! b.t.w., exercising the lower voice helps build the upper.

when i was young and in rock bands, they made me sing songs way over my head both in terms of range and strength. when you're young with no clue of voice training, you do stupid, risky things that got me absolutely nowhere. i did them anyway, litterally screaming my ass off....don't be a fool, like i once was.

bob

I am not skipping warm ups or exercising, I do this almost everyday for about 1-1:30 h.

But because I'm a bit stubborn I did this song again, this time without straining or pulling chest. Please check out the new topic I made in "Review and Critique".

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I am not skipping warm ups or exercising, I do this almost everyday for about 1-1:30 h.

But because I'm a bit stubborn I did this song again, this time without straining or pulling chest. Please check out the new topic I made in "Review and Critique".

you are still grabbing...

try this: those high parts (i don't know the words) sing those parts with the vowel (either one that works for you) "lah" or "luh." strive to relax everywhere, engage your support, open your throat (really drop that jaw and open up particularly in the back of the throat by configuring to a yawn with a slight smile) and just sing nice and easy, just enough to connect the tone and not crack or break.

if it sounds operatic, let it ...just sing exactly "lah" or "luh."

send it over...remember open and relax the throat, use as little air as possible and support.

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I like what Dena Murray says. Don't listen to your voice while you sing because you can't hear yourself outside of yourself, anyway. You have to sing by feel. But so many people listen to the wrong things in their own voice and poison themselves.

Singing is mental.

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I like what Dena Murray says. Don't listen to your voice while you sing because you can't hear yourself outside of yourself, anyway. You have to sing by feel. But so many people listen to the wrong things in their own voice and poison themselves.

Singing is mental.

If someone says, sing this, and the moment before you let out your first note.. That feeling in your body is what holds you back, IMO. There is definitely such a thing as preparing, especially for high or loud notes, but I find that generally my best singing comes from jamming where it doesn't matter; maybe a friend will lay down a guitar riff and another puts out a bass groove. When you feel it, you sing at your best, and the technical stuff is crucial, but you'll always do your best when you feel it and don't care what people think.

Have you ever noticed when your guitarist buddy shows you something he just heard of a record and he screws it up, he just laughs it off? Why don't singers do that?

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If someone says, sing this, and the moment before you let out your first note.. That feeling in your body is what holds you back, IMO. There is definitely such a thing as preparing, especially for high or loud notes, but I find that generally my best singing comes from jamming where it doesn't matter; maybe a friend will lay down a guitar riff and another puts out a bass groove. When you feel it, you sing at your best, and the technical stuff is crucial, but you'll always do your best when you feel it and don't care what people think.

Have you ever noticed when your guitarist buddy shows you something he just heard of a record and he screws it up, he just laughs it off? Why don't singers do that?

I totally get that. And it is why I describe myself as a live performer. Everyone makes a mistake or slightly pitchy note. Live, you just float it and roll right on through, never stopping. If anyone asks, "that was the jazz version."

Part of our problem here is that we only have recordings of each other to listen to, rather than speaking and singing to each other, live. Therefore, the slightest flaw is captured and stored digitally, forever, amen.

As for singing by feel, I primarily meant, by feeling how the note feels in your body, which will be more accurate to you, provided you've had someone listen to you live to let you know that "feel" was the correct tone. But your meaning of feel is also where Geoff Tate takes it. He does not say to himself, "I will do a D5 with rasp, there." He sings by what he feels emotionally in the song.

Yes, he practices and warms-up, lightly, especially when on tour. But showtime, it's all about feel, not only where the note is physically felt, but what the song feels like with the audience on this or that particular night.

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Okey, here it is an example of singing "lah" instead of words:

http://www.box.net/shared/mpmh6fuvdkrdufsnhb4e

And I recorded that right after the first one, I sing the words and think that tonewise it sounds better than the past 2 recordings:

http://www.box.net/shared/tinqllrjdice5jpjqi8b

My neighbour says she doesn't have anything against it, so I don't hold back :)

I sometimes put a finger in my ear so I can hear myself better, although I know that what I hear is not what I sound like, and I also get deconcentrate. Thats why I record myself, the problem is that I have a really usb mic for skype, and I think, I overload it, as you do, Ron, I read a couple of your comments on other topics.

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I totally get that. And it is why I describe myself as a live performer. Everyone makes a mistake or slightly pitchy note. Live, you just float it and roll right on through, never stopping. If anyone asks, "that was the jazz version."

Part of our problem here is that we only have recordings of each other to listen to, rather than speaking and singing to each other, live. Therefore, the slightest flaw is captured and stored digitally, forever, amen.

As for singing by feel, I primarily meant, by feeling how the note feels in your body, which will be more accurate to you, provided you've had someone listen to you live to let you know that "feel" was the correct tone. But your meaning of feel is also where Geoff Tate takes it. He does not say to himself, "I will do a D5 with rasp, there." He sings by what he feels emotionally in the song.

Yes, he practices and warms-up, lightly, especially when on tour. But showtime, it's all about feel, not only where the note is physically felt, but what the song feels like with the audience on this or that particular night.

Yeah that's it. You listen to actual studio recordings of older jazz, RnB and Rock 'n' Roll groups and you hear them make mistakes. But that's part of the music. There is that tradeoff between the magic between a roomful of musicians just playing, and a super-perfect, quantised, time-stretched, super multi-tracked, autotuned modern recording. It's a constant struggle between the emotional/musical/spiritual/whatever side of singing versus the technical/analytical/how do I improve this? side. Not just for singing, but for all music.

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Hey, Duchi. Yeah, I'm still not sure I have levels set right for my mic. Mine is an actual studio condenser mic going through a USB interface (Guitarface II) that has the + 48 volts and I may not have the output level right, as well as mic level in Audacity (the recording software that I use.)

And I just plain have a lot of volume. I can still overload the mic from 2 feet (61 cm) away.

What I am liking about these recent recordings is that I am hearing less "note crash," something I used to be bad about until it was pointed out to me, here. Note crash is when you reach the end of a word or phrase and the tone drops in pitch, usually from dropping the breath. And it was defect of mine, partially from the culture I live in, where men drop pitch at the end of a sentence.

You seemed to have alleviated that by yourself. Other tricks include ending a note by changing from exhale during the note to a short inhale. Also, to imagine the note continuing, even as you stop. This decreases the "note crash."

I also think it's good that you are going for a fairly clean tone as you practice this. Rasp, grit, whatever you want, can come later.

The articulation of words up high sounds muddled but I think that is probably from overloading the mic.

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Hey, Duchi. Yeah, I'm still not sure I have levels set right for my mic. Mine is an actual studio condenser mic going through a USB interface (Guitarface II) that has the + 48 volts and I may not have the output level right, as well as mic level in Audacity (the recording software that I use.)

And I just plain have a lot of volume. I can still overload the mic from 2 feet (61 cm) away.

What I am liking about these recent recordings is that I am hearing less "note crash," something I used to be bad about until it was pointed out to me, here. Note crash is when you reach the end of a word or phrase and the tone drops in pitch, usually from dropping the breath. And it was defect of mine, partially from the culture I live in, where men drop pitch at the end of a sentence.

You seemed to have alleviated that by yourself. Other tricks include ending a note by changing from exhale during the note to a short inhale. Also, to imagine the note continuing, even as you stop. This decreases the "note crash."

I also think it's good that you are going for a fairly clean tone as you practice this. Rasp, grit, whatever you want, can come later.

The articulation of words up high sounds muddled but I think that is probably from overloading the mic.

Can I just mention that to actually be overloading the microphone diaphragm itself is quite astonishing, in how much volume you must be producing... It's possible that your pre-amp (the gain input on your interface) is set too high. I mean I have recorded blaring guitar amps right into large diaphragm condensers at 6-8" and it's fine. Depends on the mic though of course.

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Hey, Duchi. Yeah, I'm still not sure I have levels set right for my mic. Mine is an actual studio condenser mic going through a USB interface (Guitarface II) that has the + 48 volts and I may not have the output level right, as well as mic level in Audacity (the recording software that I use.)

And I just plain have a lot of volume. I can still overload the mic from 2 feet (61 cm) away.

What I am liking about these recent recordings is that I am hearing less "note crash," something I used to be bad about until it was pointed out to me, here. Note crash is when you reach the end of a word or phrase and the tone drops in pitch, usually from dropping the breath. And it was defect of mine, partially from the culture I live in, where men drop pitch at the end of a sentence.

You seemed to have alleviated that by yourself. Other tricks include ending a note by changing from exhale during the note to a short inhale. Also, to imagine the note continuing, even as you stop. This decreases the "note crash."

I also think it's good that you are going for a fairly clean tone as you practice this. Rasp, grit, whatever you want, can come later.

The articulation of words up high sounds muddled but I think that is probably from overloading the mic.

This is my equipment - it's even broken because once I got angry and threw it on the floor...+Adobe Audition 3

http://www.box.net/shared/fsvkkm8qvcitdc5t6gqv

The note crashing thing, I read about this from your older posts on some other topic, and then was being cautious at places to not do this :) The thing with the rasp at this high notes, I don't know if I can make it happen on this particular song, I'm still not getting it how he does it, but for now I don't plan to push it.. I can do the Axl Rose grit on GnR songs but it's too taxing on my voice, after 2-3 songs it feels tired, and I also don't want to be his copy. Doing a cover of GnR songs is cool though.

The articulations and pronunciation in english needs some practice, it's not my mother language :)

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Don't worry, Duchi, English is my mother language and I can still mess it up. :lol:

And Mr. Bounce, that is what I am talking about. I don't think I have levels set right. I cannot control the input level of the mic going INTO the interface. Only the output level going OUT of the interface. And then, another adjustment in Audacity, as well as Windows mic level. There's a good chance that I have it all wrong and lack the technical expertise to make it right. Sometimes, it is tempting to use this decent mic of mine on the old (as in about 25 years old) TASCAM Porta 3 analog cassette 4-track recording machine and then record that into audacity as a single, premixed source. In fact, I had uploaded an analog recording of "Highway to Hell" from a few years ago, that way. And that was with a crappy mic, not nearly as good as the one I now have, which probably wouldn't work on it, since that old recorder does not have the +48 phantom power. This recording is before I ever came to this forum, where I have been told several times that I am not doing it right. And possibly, that is so.

Although, I do think the mic distortion adds a certain ambience to the whole meaning of the song. But, as always, I could be wrong. Just ask anyone.

http://dl2.dropbox.com/u/8750209/hth%20-%20analog.mp3

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But I just realized that with my guitar cord, I could have the computer on to get the +48 v and still jack into the analog .... hmmm, redneck engineering at it's best ...

Sorry, I feel like I am hijacking the thread but ideas are borne of the strangest things.

Or, I should try and get a +48 V pre-amp for the analog.

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a little easier, right?

don't push..let the tone happen without pushing.

okay, so here's what you're dealing with:

Tiny baby cries

Little, tiny pawn

In the profit gain

Tiny baby grows

now the trick is to sing every way possible on vowels and either deemphasize, substitute or drop the breath-interrupting consonants.

it's high, which means articulation and pronunciation can be deemphasized as well.

analize it, listen to him sing it (live) and see what you can do to "vowelize it."

okay?

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Yes, it was definetely easier without trying to pronunciate the words. Thanks, I'll work on the vowels!

I have a question about this yawn configuration, that you are talking about - so when I yawn, my larynx is doing down. My mouth is opened a lot. When I stop yawning should I keep this mouth position, because it seems too opened and the suprahyoid muscles are being used which causes tension? Till now I was dropping the jaw but not as much as if I am yawning.

The tone placement - should i aim at the back of the soft palate? I think my voice sounded a bit nasal on the record.

A friend of mine has the Brett Mann. program, but I think this guy teaches how to make the head tones more light, obviously not what I am aiming for. So I was wondering, can I use some of his exercises, without worrying that my voice could get lighter in the upper register? And if it's okay, what exercises should I look for?

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Yes, it was definetely easier without trying to pronunciate the words. Thanks, I'll work on the vowels!

I have a question about this yawn configuration, that you are talking about - so when I yawn, my larynx is doing down. My mouth is opened a lot. When I stop yawning should I keep this mouth position, because it seems too opened and the suprahyoid muscles are being used which causes tension? Till now I was dropping the jaw but not as much as if I am yawning.

The tone placement - should i aim at the back of the soft palate? I think my voice sounded a bit nasal on the record.

A friend of mine has the Brett Mann. program, but I think this guy teaches how to make the head tones more light, obviously not what I am aiming for. So I was wondering, can I use some of his exercises, without worrying that my voice could get lighter in the upper register? And if it's okay, what exercises should I look for?

you aren't actually litterally yawning, i just want you to get the hang of opening up the back of the throat, and getting better access to the resonating cavities crutial for this to fly.

depending on the vowel, you are trying to get the sound up and back, yes.

what you need to realize is cornell has the strength and development to sing up there strongly. you may not, (yet). you don't need to push anything because the open throat helps you resonate the tones whereby they may seem thin and softer to you, but to the audience are quite the opposite.

remember another thing: you need to be opened physically, before these get better on any given day. and don't forget your support.

how long have you been working on this song?

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Okay, so the point is opened throat, drop the jaw a bit, and place the tone. Then I'll practise the vowels.

I realise fully that Cornell has practiced for years, I won't be pushing and will try not to strain, because I developed a liking for my voice, and I don't want to loose it :)

About the breath support - I am doing exercises all the time, making the sound "sss", and checking if my beath is warm(don't try in the morning before brushing the teeth...).

The first recording of the song that I uploaded was my 3rd attempt at the song. I have bee practising more the other one "Say hello to heaven", www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFb8nxbmpNY , this is the tenth time I made an attempt at the song.

I assume that you are not familiar with Brett M.?

i have read in your posts in another thread about the "ng" sirens. So, should I do the sirens always with the "ng" sound, or "mmm" is also okay? I tried with "ng" with opened mouth and tongue on hard palate, when I pinch both my nostrils, the sound stops coming, is this right ?

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