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Is this overdrive (CVT)? Also figuring out wher KTVA goes in CVT terms

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Opaa
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Hi guys, I am working on strengthening my passagio area and I hit this F#4 and I was wondering if it's overdrive or curbing? I recorded a clip where I first sang a F#4 with overdrive and then with what I thought was curbing.

http://maihinnousu.net/s/12823

Now that I'm listening to it back I'm thinking that both were overdrive too, just cutting back the volume slightly and cutting back the air a bit on the second. It sounded better and more resonant and I'm surprised it was almost as loud as the first one. The second was with better technique, right?

It also felt that if I would decrease volume even more I would flip unless I modify somehow, so propably it was near the line between overdrive and curbing.

Also for KTVA guys: Have you figured out how KTVA works in CVT terms? A friend said to me that Ken uses overdrive and high curbing and his highest notes where neutral with a lot of twang. It seems that the exercises have led me to use overdrive between E4-A4 that I never had before :) Sounds more powerful and resonant now!

For some reason I feel that it would be great to figure out how Ken Tamplin's exercises and technique work in CVT terms for a better understanding, since CVT modes seem to be so useful information and a good reference point..

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I am a novice to CVT but for me I say both are overdrive here because both notes have a shouty quality, but curbing has a "hold" or like a feel of urgency in the tone. I think curbing is actually really hard to do. Probably the hardest of the CVT modes for me, which is sad because it's my favourite :)

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Opaa - your clips sound great. Very solid. You are modifying on both clips. Sounds like the second one is more towards curbing than the first, although I'm not an expert on this.

As far as KTVA and CVT, it seems that Ken is overdrive (or neutral) below E4 and curbing above that. (he wants "ah" to modify to "uh"). When he demonstrates singing "light" in stage 2 and 3 I'm assuming that's neutral. He keeps a very bright tone by concentrating on a the front of the mouth - raised lips, higher soft pallet, lower tongue, etc. When I emulate Ken's front of the mouth I indeed get a much brighter tone. When he goes really high, I'm sure he's twanging for that power that he acheives up at A5.

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Hey srry but I am a little confused about how those vowel sounds are written down in English. So UH is like "under" or "car"? And AH is like "cat" or "bad"?

And Geno that AH --> UH kinda confuses me because if UH above E4 is curbing, I still think Ken might sing overdrive cause he's loud as hell :D If curbing is kind of Stevie Wonder thing, then Ken Tamplin sure is overdrive ;)

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I'm so curious now I've been testing this around. I recorded two of Kens modification exercises:

1. AH to UH to OO (or however it's written, kind of ü)

2. UH to OH to OO

here's the link: http://maihinnousu.net/s/12825

Is that OH on G4 still overdrive? The top notes are quite obviously curbing I think.

What about that UH on G4? Sounded like overdrive to me, was it just a colored OH then?

I don't know if this is even important anymore but I'm just so curious and kind of obsessed too x)

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Opaa - I know what you mean. I've really abandoned the CVT rules and modes as I have been progressing with KTVA. Ken's notes above E4 are totally consistent with the Bel Canto approach. That opera singer who studied CVT says that is Curbing. It is loud. The only difference between Curbing and Overdrive for me is the reasonce placement. The thickness of the folds can be the same. To me the thickness of the folds / compression / breath pressure is responsible for the intensity and initital loudness. Curbing tones down the vowels a bit as Overdrive carry's the brightness up so that the overtones in Overdirve are even more intense above E4. Bel Canto's and Ken's approach is to build a single voice that has an "evenness" of tone (overtones in relation to fundamental). I like the "single voice" approach the best.

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Opaa,

gorgeous tone up there! I am not a CVT expert by any means, but I have certainly dabbled enough to take a shot: I think you might be in Edge with closed nasal port up top(when you get to the B4.) It's also certainly possible that it's some kind of blurred mode thing, but whatever it is still has a nice metallic bite to it. Excellent job again.

One question, can you sing an OO(as in you) or EE(as in me) up there?

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Okay, right now I think that CVT thing isn't going to help me now, it just confuses. If there's no reason to overcomplicate Ken's program then I aint gonna do it. I know Ken's program takes full devotion in order to work. And it clearly does work.

I like the "single voice" idea, that's my goal no matter what means I will use on the way there. Boy Ken's approach has been so great so far, I wonder why I try to overcomplicate things.. Well back to the business and basics then.

analog yeah I can, why do you ask? Do you mean loud and strong? And btw closed nasal port creates nasality in the sound right? I'm working on my nasality.. :) I'm working on having more like David Phelps kind of fullness, depth and roundness in my voice and especially middle and high range. It will work great for my rock thing!

Geno thanks for your answers they always help me out :)

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Okay, right now I think that CVT thing isn't going to help me now, it just confuses. If there's no reason to overcomplicate Ken's program then I aint gonna do it. I know Ken's program takes full devotion in order to work. And it clearly does work.

I like the "single voice" idea, that's my goal no matter what means I will use on the way there. Boy Ken's approach has been so great so far, I wonder why I try to overcomplicate things.. Well back to the business and basics then.

Excellent idea. You can always come back to it after you have a solid command(if you so so desire.)

analog yeah I can, why do you ask? Do you mean loud and strong? And btw closed nasal port creates nasality in the sound right? I'm working on my nasality.. :) I'm working on having more like David Phelps kind of fullness, depth and roundness in my voice and especially middle and high range. It will work great for my rock thing!

I asked because those vowels(I, O) would put you square in the center of curbing.

Also, a closed nasal port does not create nasality, singing into the nose does. On top of that, some people will confuse twang with nasality although it has nothing to do with it. There's all kinds of shit that can be done with the vocal tract to alter your sound. I say as long as you are making the sound you want and are able to sing comfortably...don't over complicate it. best of luck.

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Opaa - I know what you mean. I've really abandoned the CVT rules and modes as I have been progressing with KTVA.

I like the "single voice" approach the best.

You realize, of course, Geno, you will be excommunicated for the blashpemy of the first quoted statement. But I welcome you to join me on the highway to Hell. And that was humor and I expect it will be taken wrong. C'est la Vie. (I know, that's french. How about spanish? Que sera, sera. How about German? Das ist Lebens.)

Second phrase, that is also what I am shooting for, I just dare to use a system or systems not having a catchy, modern phrase or name. But then, again, being on the highway to Hell does have a certain amount of freedom.

(I really need a devil smiley right here.)

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If you prefer the KTVA method, I am happy to respect that, but I will point out that the CVT book does teach you how to achieve a unified voice, with whatever sound you desire. It doesn't have to be the OD->Curb->Ntrl approach that Bel Canto advocates. Read the section called "Transitions between modes" and see if that helps you.

Anyway, just my $0.02.

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You realize, of course, Geno, you will be excommunicated for the blashpemy of the first quoted statement. But I welcome you to join me on the highway to Hell. And that was humor and I expect it will be taken wrong. C'est la Vie. (I know, that's french. How about spanish? Que sera, sera. How about German? Das ist Lebens.)

Second phrase, that is also what I am shooting for, I just dare to use a system or systems not having a catchy, modern phrase or name. But then, again, being on the highway to Hell does have a certain amount of freedom.

(I really need a devil smiley right here.)

Yeah, I know. I really respect CVT and think the book is great. I use some of the CVT exercises, and I think they've done awesome research, particularly on distortion.

I just like the single voice concept where I can go through my whole range on whatever vowel I want, at whatever volume I want. Each vowel has a modification or two along the way and the modifications are automatic (as they've been beaten into my head through every day practice). I just work on trying to get the tension out at certain spots. This is as opposed to mentally thinking about navigating through the modes and making sure I connect them with the proper vowels when I'm traversing different modes. I supposed if I took lessons from a CVT instructor I may have a completely different outlook. But I've had good luck with KTVA so I'm sticking with it for now.

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Spectrum for me it's impossible to say that I will never use CVT or anything else, it's just for now. I certainly respect other methods and CVT very much. And even now I'm using some other exercises as well, like for support and stuff. When I have KTVA down to the core then who knows what direction I want to take, impossible to say yet. Maybe it's nothing but KTVA even then or maybe I want to expand to bunch of other methods. Well it's about singing to me not mastering a method, so I'm super happy with KTVA now :) Can't wait to be singing badass rock songs in front of an audience with my own band, doing my thing, that's what it's all about for me.

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Geno, do you feel that doing Ken's exercises transfer well into singing actual songs? Users of many vocal programs often complain that they can do the exercises but when they try to sing a song, everything becomes much harder. That's one of the reasons CVT recommends that you work a lot on songs. But the reason why probaby most vocal coaches recommend that you spend more time on doing vocal exercises than songs (the opposite of what CVT advocates) is that in theory, if you do a good variety of good vocal exercises, the exercises should cover pretty much everything that could happen in a song. Do you know what I mean? I was just wondering if you felt that Ken's program did that for you - so that you don't really have to sing that many songs at home and can just skip that stuff until next band practise. Right now I'm a bit interested in checking out Ken's program, especially since so many of the better singers here like his stuff and also because a part of me has always liked the idea of one single voice and no freaking modes ;) It's interesting to note that I seem to be considered one of the main "CVT guys" on this forum, but yet I've never had a lesson with a CVT coach (I only own and like the book), I've done many of the exercises in the book, yes, but from day one I've had a sort of a love/hate relationship with the modes. I do realize that they can help people, but they can also hold people back if they get too caught up in analyzing youtube clips of singers, trying to figure out what the mode is. Like I said, love and hate. I prefer the love. Peace! :)

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+1 to Jonpall's post, which, I think, deserves a separate discussion

I know that there are some advocates for singing scales only, which has something to do with muscle memory and how we seem to "forget" the right coordinations when switching back to singing

I, for one, would be very inrested in learning more ;)

Cheers,

Vlad

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jonpall - yes, the KTVA exercises transfer over to songs very well, for me at least. That may not be the case with everyone. I would say that if I was in a band (and I'm currently not in one) I would want to practice at least 50% songs if not more. I guess that would depend on how well I knew the songs, and how happy I was with my current technique. If I was reheasing for a concert tour, I guess I'd only spend only a half hour on warm up exercises and the rest on the songs for the tour. At that point I'd have to say "forget about advancing the technique, let's apply what I've learned to the songs and stage show."

Lately I'm just a recording artist able to choose what songs and when I want to learn them. And occasional work for a producer, but nothing that would come close to learning 3 hours worth of songs. And that's due to my own situation with a day job and raising a couple of kids, and trying to stay up on my guitar chops too. Like Opaa said, once I master everything in KTVA I'll decide the next course of action.

What I like about the KTVA is that you form a basis of singing a particular vowel at a particular pitch. From there, you can vary the intensity, compression, volume, distortion, etc. And over time it really does become automatic. The vowel mods are done with the 1st formant tuning, which occurs behind the first turn of your tongue in the back of the throat. That is a spot you cannot see, so everything is done by feel and sound. And for most of us this is not natural. The KTVA exercises help me produce this 1st formant tuning so that it is natural. I like it when a technique becomes something that you don't have to think about...so that I can concentrate on the emotion of the song.

The CVT exercises I'm doing are the ones for neutral, and they've helped me a lot. Traditionally I would belt everything above E4 with thick folds. Singing up there in a light voice was hard for me. When KTVA got into singing lightly, it was really hard. The CVT neutral exercises come in handy and I do them every day along with the KTVA exercises.

The other thing about KTVA that draws me in, I think, is Ken himself. He is a super positive guy and a gifted communicator. And this shows on his videos and audio clips (even though I've never taken a lesson with him). Now I sound like a freaking commercial for KTVA! Enough already! (lol)

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Hi,

..

That's one of the reasons CVT recommends that you work a lot on songs. But the reason why probaby most vocal coaches recommend that you spend more time on doing vocal exercises than songs (the opposite of what CVT advocates) is that in theory, if you do a good variety of good vocal exercises, the exercises should cover pretty much everything that could happen in a song.

..

There is a balance to what is happening at various times in a singers training, Festivals can usually present 2 to 5 songs to an individual (so songs are important), concerts usually only have a few (balance between exercises and song), Exams usually have 4 pieces ... and ... between all the singing, concerts and exams ... is more focussed on training / theory / vocal dexterity / pitching / resonance / etc ...

Is there a good reason to sing a phrase in a song which is alien to you .?. ... or do you 'apply' an exercise to it, or use one from the toolset, which allows you to learn the phrase (maybe using vowel) .?. Then take that exercise into the song. .. Hey ... just wiki Pentatonic scale and its uses :) .

Usually, I would actually say it's a 1/2 1/2 balance on both ... as even when you run through a song .. a portion of a song may take you back into exercise in order to go over a phrase.

I sometimes suspend a song and go back to pitching (especially through a passage, because believe me ... A4 is one common note I hear pitched incorrectly (females), and if A4 is wrong - so usually is B4, C5 & D5); or maybe use a vowel run 1st 3rd, 5th, octave; discuss resonance (especially on "ee" on G4 or A4, which I do happen to like :) .... Riiiinnnng ), run of 5 notes, octave run, speedy arpeggios .. etc.

I like the "forget the right cordinates" idea, as you can hit the note right on scale (so pitching / resonance / diction spot on), but then to go and sing a song and out the window it goes ... laughs, but this is usually done through ... inexperience, a lot of people may only do the "exercise" once or twice and then expect it to be spot on ...

When I read this I had 3 music books next to me ... so I open up at random page.

Book 1

German Folk - run of 6 notes - so exercises pentatonic and octave scale

English 17th Cent tune - D4 to A4 - pentatonic run

Book 2

theatre piece - octave jump

Book 3

nice "sing" to your granny piece - 1st 3rd 5th octave arpeggio

Now ... lets apply pent scale to circle of fifths (lets talk theory). ... Wiki'ing pentatonic scale shows its ubiquitous use.

Just singing scales however ... wouldn't do that consistently to anyone,. they'll be running out the door before you know it ....

So ... Balance of either and what through training is appropriate to the situation.

Stew

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The other thing about KTVA that draws me in, I think, is Ken himself. He is a super positive guy and a gifted communicator. And this shows on his videos and audio clips (even though I've never taken a lesson with him). Now I sound like a freaking commercial for KTVA! Enough already! (lol)

i agree totally with you geno. i happen to agree with you a lot buddy.

ken is extremely good at explaining things. i have gotten quite a bit out of ken's, lugo's, and cain's program.

i swear by daily exercise..it does so much more than just strenghthen the voice..it conditions, stretches, and instills what i now refer to as "custom manipulation" of your voice. i find after awhile of exercising hard day after day, month after month, all of a sudden the voice takes on a "set up" or a positioning that you can alter to suit different singing demands. now, can i explain that any further? "no" but i'll bet cha the guys that do this day after day know what i'm getting at.

i noticed recently i was singing a song i've done for a while, and without trying all of a sudden i realized the song sang different...deeper and crisper that when i did it before.

i also feel that the exercises increase the percentage of nailing the notes in the "pocket" the place where the sound beam goes to max out on resonance.

i really thing they are the absolute key to "pro" level vocals. just my opinion.

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