Sticking the tongue out equals raising the larynx ?

[akarawd]

I didn't know if I should post here or the vocal science thread... please move as you see fit ;

Is it possible to have a tongue out/low larynx configuration ?

I know it might sound like a silly question but I want an informed answer,

'cause in my experience sticking the tongue out equals raising the larynx.

Cheers,

Thanos

[Steven Fraser]

I didn't know if I should post here or the vocal science thread... please move as you see fit ;

Is it possible to have a tongue out/low larynx configuration ?

I know it might sound like a silly question but I want an informed answer,

'cause in my experience sticking the tongue out equals raising the larynx.

Thanos

Thanos: Sure, it can be done, but it involves learning some new tongue and throat muscle coordinations. As Dante mentions, the muscles of the tongue connect with some of those that go down to the hyoid, and the larynx suspension includes muscles that connect the hyoid and the larynx. For the combination you seek, the muscles which suspend the hyoid must be allowed to stay long while those which extend the tongue are gently active. Further, the muscles which connect the hyoid to the larynx must be allowed to stay long as well.

The reason this configuration is difficult to learn is that the swallowing reflex requires just the opposite, that many muscle of the tongue activate simultaneously with the rising of the hyoid and the larynx. This bunching up is not a motion that we have to practice... its wired right in to us as a reflex. To deliberately re-train muscles to act counter to reflexive or habitual action will always be a process of discovery and will only yield to dedicated practice.

But, it can be done. Many, many classical singers have learned how to do this.

Now, how _far_ the tongue can be protruded past the lips, and in which vowel configurations... that is a matter of genetics. A tongue-tied singer will not be able to do it. Vowels which require the hump of the tongue to be high, particularly oo and ee, will be quite a challenge for some with smaller tongue mass.

If you are looking for exercises that can help you learn this... let us know. You don't have to do it all at once. There are intermediate steps that can be taken to help start you on your way.

I hope this helps.

[ronws]

out. I personally have a very broad tongue that's somewhat long too. When I stick my tongue all the way out, the tip can just about touch my chin.

~~Dante~~

That gave me a vision of Gene Simmons. Thanks, now it's going to be stuck in my head all day.

[Steven Fraser]

Steven,

I want to know more of your thoughts about the lowering of the larynx in relation to how far the tongue sticks out. I personally have a very broad tongue that's somewhat long too. When I stick my tongue all the way out, the tip can just about touch my chin. If I stick my tongue out this much for exercises, there is only but so much my larynx can lower. If I let the tongue come back a bit more but still out of my mouth, I can get much more laryngeal depth. What are your thoughts on situations such as this?

~~Dante~~

Dante: hahahahhah! A very well endowed tongue, it seems!

I ask: what would be the purpose of extending the tongue that far, at least, for singing :-)

[Robert Lunte]

Sticking the tongue out will not lower the larynx, leveraging the tongue against the back of the bottom teeth does... or helps make the larynx "dump". This is one of the three intrinsic muscles we train in the "TVS intrinsic anchoring set", used to help stabilize and configure boomy formants for passaggio bridging and head voice singing. Tongue leveraging is really important and helps a lot.

Sticking the tongue out a little bit is a good idea to get a little more passage in the vocal tract. I do this sometime when Im screaming a high note, it seems to add more "pant" and space. I dont feel that sticking the tongue out is a big deal though, its nothing to write home to mom about, but leveraging against the back of the bottom teeth is.

Hope this helps...

[stew503]

Hi,

I would like put forward three things ...

Robert - can you go into the anchoring you mention (without going into too much detail as I understand and accept it is part of your costed system) and the leveraging of tongue against bottom teeth / lower alveolar ridge, both as a resting place for tongue and use of leveraging.

The second is (where I think Dante was coming from) is Steven's comment, "But, it can be done. Many, many classical singers have learned how to do this." and , "If you are looking for exercises that can help you learn this ... let us know" .. Steven - would you like to add more (i.e. the how . i.e. Shaker ?)

The third to throw into the ring is that from Husler / Marling again (and yes - I have a 1st edtn copy with the black 7" record in it (yes people vinyl)), "The tongue holds itself quite correctly without any help-or rather, it does not hold itself at all - UNLESS it is being misused by having to act as a false opponent to any of the muscles in the larynx. For the singer there is only one way of curing cramped or faulty positions of the tongue, and that is by exercising the proper functions of the vocal organ itself not the other way around."

discuss ...

I point people at Carter singing Gethsemane (youtube) as an example as there are some excellent camera shots showing mouth and tongue (and if you look close enough soft palate) configurations and ... actually!! through watching Last Supper TODAY, note that Carter keeps the blade apex tucked and the front to centre tongue extended outside of mouth at 4:04 (Last supper) on the F# trill for about 1/4 second (which sounds like what you teach Robert - would I be correct ?). Had it not been for this and the Lambert post - I would NEVER have seen that (and I have seen that many times).

Stew

p.s. Robert. 5:34 to 5:37 in the Koz video - that is one beAutiful sound.

Ron - I'll add to this post rather than post underneath - You certainly have not been poisoned by the greatness of Neeley (especially as he is what ... 68 now) or Gillan. Your response put me on youtube to watch Neeley and watch his tongue, you can see where it is at (3:30 on the G - Why). The reason for Carter is that the camera angles get's right in there, where as it doesn't elsewhere.

[ronws]

Thanks for sharing that, Stew. I found Carter's performance a bit nasal but then, again, I have been poisoned, having grown up with Ted Neely's performance. However, I do like some of the sub-text that Glen puts in it later on. I take it a step further, myself.

[Steven Fraser]

...

The second is (where I think Dante was coming from) is Steven's comment, "But, it can be done. Many, many classical singers have learned how to do this." and , "If you are looking for exercises that can help you learn this ... let us know" .. Steven - would you like to add more (i.e. the how . i.e. Shaker ?)

Stew503: Generally, the kinds of exercises which encourage this kind of development fall into two categories: 1) those that increase awareness of the tension in the tongue root, the nearby suprahyoid and throat, and 2) those which practice phonation in a manner that does not provoke the reflexive 'bunching' of these muscles, and the habitually-associated lifting of the larynx.

Parenthetically, for the classical singer, the end-goal is not to develop the ability to stick the tongue out while maintaining a low larynx. :-) The goal is more modest. Its to create a vocal technique in which the tongue is free to respond to the vowel and dynamic concept in whatever way is desired for the artist's intent. In simpler speech, to make the tongue a non-issue, a complete servant to the singer.

Of the first category, there are several fun-to-do exercises that serve well to give the singer indication that there is hyperfunction (overactivity) in one or another of the muscles that comprise the tongue and its supporting musculature. I will address some of those in a later post.

The starting place for this training is to warm up with posture and patterns of gentle stretches and flexes of all neck, head and jaw-positioning muscles. These activities, on their own, help the singer to expand their awareness of their instrument, and I recommend their use in advance of any serious session of singing. Ten minutes is usually sufficient.

Once ready, the next task is understand the moment of onset for a given singer. This is the place where lifelong speech habits, for good or for ill, kick in, including under-or-oversupply of exhalation force associated with the speaking voice. The beginning exercise is very, very simple: Gently place the thumb and index finger on either side of the larynx, and in the most comfortable part of the range, onset the Eh vowel at medium volume briefly and repeatedly, with a breath between each note. The purpose of the finger position is to sense any muscular action, tension or motion whatsoever at the moment that phonation starts, that may be associated with the onset. If any motion, action, or tension is detected, soften slightly and repeat.

Motion of the larynx upward, or downward, is not desired [edit:] as phonation is begun. The exercise cycle, of bodily warm-up and onsets, is repeated daily for 15 minutes on the same note, until such time that the laryngeal position is completely disassociated with the onset.

At that point, add the Ih vowel, and repeat. When the larynx is quieted for that, add A (as in cat), then Uh (as in cup) and oe (as in look) and then as in her (without the R).

Depending on the starting point, to get to the point where these 6 vowels are stabilized may take from 2-6 months. When they are in good shape, the 'long' versions (ee, ay, ah, oh and oo) can be undertaken, with the same attention to detail, and when those are in-hand, the onsets can be extended downward and upward in the pitch range.

Thats how it starts.

[Steven Fraser]

Dante: Remember, the context for the statement is within the description of this particular exercise and its goals, which is an exercise to begin to develop the technique in a manner that leads to independent motion of the tongue and larynx. [edit:] I added a small edit in the early post to clarify that context.

Its been my experience that the motions can go either way, either upward or downward, depending on habitual voice use. For the purposes of the exercise, neither is desirable at the moment of onset.

I hope this helps.

[akarawd]

My apologies for not responding earlier, I just came back from a leave.

Thank you all for the answers and the exercise - Steven, yes, I am interested in exercises and will put

the one you posted into effect.

In response to some of the questions above, the reason I want to be able to control my tongue

separately from my larynx is control itself as well as agility. I have a very big and broad tongue that I need to be able

to use it at will.

Thanks again, I will read each post carefully and start the exercise.

Kind Regards,

Thanos

[Steven Fraser]

Very interesting. These are things that I've heard said before regarding phonation, but never in reference to the onset. I'm also curious why you chose the EH vowel to begin this exercise with instead of another vowel or even just an M sound for that matter.

~~Dante~~

Dante: I chose EH because of the tongue position, its appearance in many languages, and the little need for modification in the mid range.