Jump to content

High rasp


jonpall

Recommended Posts

Bob, you have the CVT book, right? Also, their descriptions are on the CVT web site for anyone to see, so people can check it out and follow better what these terms mean. Here's the description for the edge mode:

Edge (formerly ‘Belting') is the other full-metallic mode. There is a great amount of metal in the notes. The character of Edge is light, aggressive, sharp, and screaming, like when you imitate a diving airplane. Edge can be found by twanging the epiglottic funnel (e.g. sounding like a duck).

Edge is used in popular music in some styles, and mostly in the high part of the voice when the volume needs to be very loud and with a great amount of metal on the notes, such as in heavy rock and gospel music. Edge is used in classical music when men sing very loudly (ff) often in the high part of the voice such as the high C of a tenor. Women do not use Edge in classical music. Edge is used in everyday life when you scream.

Both men and women can use Edge in all parts of the voice. Only twanged vowels can be used as the twanged epiglottic funnel is a condition of Edge. This means that in the high part of the voice you can only use ‘I' (as in ‘sit'), ‘A' (as in ‘and'), ‘EH' (as in ‘stay'), and ‘OE' (as in ‘herb'). The sound colour can only be altered a little. In the high part of the voice you must not alter the light and sharp sound colour. The volume in Edge stays mostly loud. The higher the notes, the more distinct the screaming character becomes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 224
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Bob, you have the CVT book, right? Also, their descriptions are on the CVT web site for anyone to see, so people can check it out and follow better what these terms mean. Here's the description for the edge mode:

i was joking a bit...yes, i read the book...i just can't buy into the modes and their parameters. i apprecaite that you folks do, i simply don't like them. i prefer to feel my way through the effects side of things. i cannot relate to the structured, rules-oriented side of the cvt methodology.

i'm very much i'm big into this whole frisell method.

are you considering the book?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Bob, you have the CVT book, right? Also, their descriptions are on the CVT web site for anyone to see, so people can check it out and follow better what these terms mean. Here's the description for the edge mode:

I feel like in the last two weeks, the light has turned on in regards to my understanding of what CVI is doing more and again, every time I hear something or read something, it looks a lot like what we are doing at TVS as well. The "edge" your referring to above, would be described in TVS as "Vocal Twang with more compression/contraction of the AES to get a more metal sound or ... if you do it a bit more, TVS "Overlay" distortion... distortion that "overlays" an existing, well configured twang vocal mode. This sound also has a higher larynx position and less "dampening" or laryngeal dump, thus the brighter overtones. The vowels that you refer to above and their nature in this kind of configuration are also pretty consistent with what we discuss and teach at TVS.

All of this is described and demonstrated in video on the TVS training system, "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0. This is good because I feel like CVI and TVS are verifying each other to a degree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Bob:

Perhaps this can help.

TVS separates laryngeal physiology (vocal modes) and vowel modification and trains the necessity to combine these by calling them, "components inside of a phonation package". The "phonation package" is a list of important vocal technique concerns, including the pure Estillian vocal modes, that must all be coordinated at the same time to produce a desired result, presumably, singing amazing.

CVI seems to combine vocal physiology & vowel modification into bundles, gives them cool vocal mode names like "edge" & "overdrive" and then tells people to "switch" in any given time.

SUMMARY:

TVS = train and maintain a master "phonation package" and understanding the components inside and how they calibrate at any given moment in time in the phonation.

CVI = Bundles vocal physiology with vowel modification and calls them "vocal modes" and then teaches people to 'switch' vocal modes.

Its different paths to the same destination. There is just no denying to my very trained ears on this stuff, that JonPall's siren demonstrations are pretty damn close to what Im teaching my students to do. JonPall could walk into my studio, sort out the language and immediately rip it and know what he need to do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob:

Perhaps this can help.

TVS separates laryngeal physiology (vocal modes) and vowel modification and trains the necessity to combine these by calling them, "components inside of a phonation package". The "phonation package" is a list of important vocal technique concerns, including the pure Estillian vocal modes, that must all be coordinated at the same time to produce a desired result, presumably, singing amazing.

CVI seems to combine vocal physiology & vowel modification into bundles, gives them cool vocal mode names like "edge" & "overdrive" and then tells people to "switch" in any given time.

SUMMARY:

TVS = train and maintain a master "phonation package" and understanding the components inside and how they calibrate at any given moment in time in the phonation.

CVI = Bundles vocal physiology with vowel modification and calls them "vocal modes" and then teaches people to 'switch' vocal modes.

Its different paths to the same destination. There is just no denying to my very trained ears on this stuff, that JonPall's siren demonstrations are pretty damn close to what Im teaching my students to do. JonPall could walk into my studio, sort out the language and immediately rip it and know what he need to do.

rob, i know these are all viable effectives techniques, and i apprecaite it....but for me, for now, i'm sticking with the anthony frisell method.

it seems so right for someone like me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

rob, i know these are all viable effectives techniques, and i apprecaite it....but for me, for now, i'm sticking with the anthony frisell method.

it seems so right for someone like me.

The Frisell ideas are great. Im not trying to talk you into something... Im just trying to hopefully make some sense of it for you. What I would do as a vocal technique geek, as I think you are too... is find the ideas from the Frisell ideas and see if you can find any relationships between his pedagogy and the "vocal mode" pedagogy that we find ourselves discussing often at TMV Forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing about the edge mode is that when you go up in pitch from the overdrive mode (pretty much chesty speak mode, kinda) to the edge mode, even though edge is loud and "full metallic", you have to let go of the vocal weight in order to go from overdrive to edge! That vocal weight has to drop. When I sing at home I do this all the time, but with my band I sometimes forget it, or my balance gets a bit off and I start to pull chest too much. I usually get back on track but sometimes it costs me a bum note or two. Also, you have to use good support, especially if you also use distortion. Finally, if you get rid of your vocal weight TOO fast as you go up in pitch, you'll end up in what CVT calls mln, which is similar to edge, i.e. very twangy, but with less volume and therefore more vowels are possible (like a pure ee and oo, f.ex.). Usually, in the tenor range, you don't want to do this because many people find the sound too thin, but above C5 it can be very effective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

At TVS we refer to the reduction of weight in the phonation as "lift up / pull back" and the we also say, "The Higher The Pitch, The Deeper The Placement". Its not just weight on the phonation JonPall, think of it also as a measure of depth into the head voice. I don't hear you addressing your head placement in your talk-track ever. Its all about vocal mode switching, thats fine, but I would like to give you a little pinch of TVS to help you...

The higher your pitch, the deeper the phonation sits in the head voice, or the more it covers. Do all your vocal mode work, or as we say in TVS, maintain your "Phonation Package", but be aware of the depth of your resonant placement more. Stop thinking about higher pitch as "up/down & low/high"... think about them as "low/high" AND "resonant depth". Begin to see your phonations as a measurement and balance between two dimensions, pitch and resonant placement, not in one dimension of "up/down & low/high". If you do this, you will grow in your singing and new things will begin to reveal themselves to you.

The Higher The Pitch, The Deeper The Resonant Placement.

This was essentially the discussion I had on the stream cast presentation, "The Geometry of Vocal Technique"... which I will get around to doing again soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have actually mentioned it in some thread but you're right Robert, this little tip can really help people - i.e. when a high note is coming it can really help to picture it being produced higher in your head than the lower notes. It helps to get rid of the vocal weight. Sometimes I think that what that imagery really does is simply to raise the larynx a bit and thin the vocal folds a bit. Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

frisell teaches one to grow the falsetto (i really think he saying head voice) by directing the air for high notes behind the soft palete and up into the resonating cavities using "ee" and "oo" to start with...then increasing the breath tension (stressing as he calls it) till your sound grows without calling in any chest involvement whatsoever for the time till the head voice has overtaken chest voice.

when you approach it from this perspective, the high note (like rob said) feels like you inhaled the tone and it makes an arc like an vertically elongated letter c. it feels like you can almost steer your air where you need it to go.

if you drop the larynx you get the opera thing, and if you raise it it gets twangy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

I have actually mentioned it in some thread but you're right Robert, this little tip can really help people - i.e. when a high note is coming it can really help to picture it being produced higher in your head than the lower notes. It helps to get rid of the vocal weight. Sometimes I think that what that imagery really does is simply to raise the larynx a bit and thin the vocal folds a bit. Cheers.

JonPall, its not just a little tip. LOL... but anyways...

No, not "... being produced higher".... see, you are perceiving vocal range in one dimension, the one that everyone intuitively can see, "up/down" & "low/high". Don't use "higher" and "lower" in your visuals. I think you missing my point here. Stop thinking about vocal range as only "higher" or "lower"... I know its hard to do that because its so obvious and intuitive for us all, but afterall, this is vocal technique.

The dimension of "high & low" does exist, but its only 50% of the story. The less obvious variable that needs to accounted for, that comes to your understanding only through voice training is the variables of time & resonant placement.

If the "Y" axis represents "up/down, low/high" then the "x" axis represents "time and resonant placement".

When we account for the "X" axis, we can then conclude a new perspective on how voice technique, the "phonation package", exists in two dimensions, not one. Therefore, THE HIGHER THE PITCH, THE DEEPER THE PLACEMENT.

Im not talking about getting "higher" in the head voice, I'm talking about getting deeper in the head voice!

Honestly, this is one of the truly great innovations in the new "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0 update. I sincerely think, that by overlaying an geometric, intercept graph to existing vocal technique... I have developed something that is brilliant. Not saying everything I have done is brilliant, but I do believe this idea of illustrating vocal technique inside of an "x"/"y" intercept graph to reveal two dimensions, instead of one, is really cool.

I know its a bit abstract, as most voice technique stuff is... but it is all explained in "Pillars" 2.0 with an intercept graph illustration, etc... in fact, the graph is so cool, its the back cover of the book. I am very tempted to provide a link to show you guys, but I just think I would be doing myself a disservice if I did. I think the information belongs only to my paying clients.

In any case, I can say... see vocal range as a measurement of depth into the head voice, not just "higher" and "lower".

As for how the vocal folds are thinning out as you sing "deeper" into the head voice, that is true, but beside the point I'm trying to make. The vocal folds thin out as you go "higher" AND "deeper"... not just "higher".

I hope this helps or at least gets people thinking...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

frisell teaches one to grow the falsetto (i really think he saying head voice) by directing the air for high notes behind the soft palete and up into the resonating cavities using "ee" and "oo" to start with...then increasing the breath tension (stressing as he calls it) till your sound grows without calling in any chest involvement whatsoever for the time till the head voice has overtaken chest voice.

when you approach it from this perspective, the high note (like rob said) feels like you inhaled the tone and it makes an arc like an vertically elongated letter c. it feels like you can almost steer your air where you need it to go.

if you drop the larynx you get the opera thing, and if you raise it it gets twangy.

Bob, I have not read the Frisell, but I feel that what you are describing, I "get it". It sounds like good stuff... what I hear you saying Bob, is... you are using closed "ee" and "oo" vowels, phonated in falsetto vocal mode, to get open... to get free from the constrictors and get "hooty" in the head voice. (thanks for point out that what Frisell really means is "head voice" and not Falsetto. It just goes to show you, even the top rated experts, remain confused about how to use the terms "falsetto" & "head voice" properly), in any case, ... using the closed vowels in falsetto is a good way to open up and get to the head voice.

What I would say about that Bob is... the closed vowels actually are not your preferred vowels for training or singing.. in fact in singing, as I think you know, we modify OUT of the closed formant, into more open formant to stop constricting on high belts and head tones. With that in mind, why work out on closed vowels at all? We never work out on closed vowels at TVS, it has little value. Why not work on your head placements and bridging on a big falsetto "Ah", "Uh" or our favorite with the most magic, "Eh"? Why not build the muscle memory for shaping the formant that you are really going to need when you begin to sing?

Another thing I'm hearing here is... once you are in your heady placements, you are then bringing in your intrinsic anchoring, your "inside muscle contractions; twang, tongue leveraging, laryngeal dumping, etc... and thus, creating a good, full sounding head voice tone. In TVS speak we would say you are... doing a "finesse' and press" maneuver or a "place and ping" maneuver... you are using falsetto mode as a tool to help you to get the timing of your register bridging correct and to help you to get a good DEEP heady placement... then once you have established a good head voice placement, you are then bringing in your intrinsic anchoring set (twang, tongue, larynx dumping, embouchure, preferred training vowel) and getting the desired effect.

This work flow is what a TVS student will do a lot of in the beginning and it also why working out like this on slow and controlled sirens builds your voice into a huge monster of excellence. Bob... I invite you to do what your doing, but don't workout on "ee" and "oo"... that's old classical stuff... work out on "Eh" and "Uh" and do it on slow sirens... and you'll be singing like Julie Andrews in no time.

Hope this helps...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

... anyways... as we sometimes do... this is suppose to be about Vocal Distortion, right? This weekend, if I get some time, Ill try to do a quick little TMV Forum demonstration of TVS Distortion... the things I have been working on and teaching my students lately and upload it to the "Rob Box.net" folder...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert à question, isnt it hard to sing closed vowels up in the highrange if we dont practice them?

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=SE#/watch?v=3zQOZD4qE20

Like the singing in this clip at 2:32 and forward youll hear loads of closed vowels in high registers. I think its à great skill to be able to have, and i Consider it very Hard to sing this way. I cant do it this way, but i think you must train the closed vowels to be able to sing this.

Would really like your input and thoughts on this, since i hear loads of great singers Especially tenors sing this way :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jens, this link doesn't work. And Jens, if you go from overdrive to edge to mln as you go up in pitch, you have lots of vowel options. In the G4-C5 area you'll have the edge vowels "I", Eh, A and Oe. Then you have all vowels below the passagio (using overdrive) and then pretty much all vowels above C5 if you switch to mln (although the twanged ones will work better and they all tend to merge with each other). But you already know all this.

You could also sing lighter and use curbing, if that's what you want. Or even lighter, a la Frisell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Jens, you should check out the new update to pillars, I think you will be pleased... its only $99 for existing clients...

http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/product.asp?itemid=56

I clicked on your link , but no video comes up.. i think the link is bugged up? try again.

I agree with you, you can train to phonate more closed formants in high registers if you want... in fact, Maestro Kyle was more of an advocate of that, on the TVS workout "The Hero", Maestro Kyle would of had you sing a more "covered" (he used covering in a different way I do), an "ee" vowel and phonate it in a the closed formant with lots of masky/nasal placement... "oo" similar. They are very thin and dont project much, but do have lots of twany compression. So ya, you can do this... but Jens... its a huge can of worms with students that try to use them in high belts in rock and roll and instead of it being the highly refined phonations you are referring to, they just default out to speech mode formants and it just chokes the crap out of them... as it does for even top pros. Singing closed , speech mode like vowels in high chest voice and head voice engages the constrictors faster then you can say, "Id like a happy meal please"! And you know it!

Forget it... modify these closed vowels to open vowels and learn how to articulate dipthongs and the whole business of singing becomes a hell of a lot easier. All these vowel modification details, what it is, how to fix it, even how to 'score" your lyrics to use vowel modification and dipthongs to stop constricting when you sing is layed out in then new "Pillars" upgrade... the vowel sections of the book were the most time consuming and detailed as you can imagine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bob, I have not read the Frisell, but I feel that what you are describing, I "get it". It sounds like good stuff... what I hear you saying Bob, is... you are using closed "ee" and "oo" vowels, phonated in falsetto vocal mode, to get open... to get free from the constrictors and get "hooty" in the head voice. (thanks for point out that what Frisell really means is "head voice" and not Falsetto. It just goes to show you, even the top rated experts, remain confused about how to use the terms "falsetto" & "head voice" properly), in any case, ... using the closed vowels in falsetto is a good way to open up and get to the head voice.

What I would say about that Bob is... the closed vowels actually are not your preferred vowels for training or singing.. in fact in singing, as I think you know, we modify OUT of the closed formant, into more open formant to stop constricting on high belts and head tones. With that in mind, why work out on closed vowels at all? We never work out on closed vowels at TVS, it has little value. Why not work on your head placements and bridging on a big falsetto "Ah", "Uh" or our favorite with the most magic, "Eh"? Why not build the muscle memory for shaping the formant that you are really going to need when you begin to sing?

Another thing I'm hearing here is... once you are in your heady placements, you are then bringing in your intrinsic anchoring, your "inside muscle contractions; twang, tongue leveraging, laryngeal dumping, etc... and thus, creating a good, full sounding head voice tone. In TVS speak we would say you are... doing a "finesse' and press" maneuver or a "place and ping" maneuver... you are using falsetto mode as a tool to help you to get the timing of your register bridging correct and to help you to get a good DEEP heady placement... then once you have established a good head voice placement, you are then bringing in your intrinsic anchoring set (twang, tongue, larynx dumping, embouchure, preferred training vowel) and getting the desired effect.

This work flow is what a TVS student will do a lot of in the beginning and it also why working out like this on slow and controlled sirens builds your voice into a huge monster of excellence. Bob... I invite you to do what your doing, but don't workout on "ee" and "oo"... that's old classical stuff... work out on "Eh" and "Uh" and do it on slow sirens... and you'll be singing like Julie Andrews in no time.

Hope this helps...

rob, thanks (as always) for your input. trying to make this brief, the "ee" and "oo" are just the starting vowels (and "open versions" of these closed vowels) he wants you to work on first because he believes those pave the way for the rest of the others.

he asking you to gain proficiency on "oo" "ee" "eh" "oh" and "ah." he really stressed the importance of this specific order.

he only wants you to run those in a descending direction from your highest to your lowest note never (as some teachers have recommended) never dropping into chest.

and your term "deep placement" is a really good description of what it feels like, it's almost as if your resonance cavities are growing.

but as do my exercises, i'm not constricting, i'm basically relaxed and open, (like i've never been before) and although it can sound operatic, it's something he asking you to accept for now, for the superior tone to follow in time. so i'm strenthening my head voice to get to my blended voice.

rob, if there was ever a book i could recommend without question, this is the one.....at least for me.

i have spent too many years digging my way up from the bottom rather than staying up top and working my way down.

here's a really good excerpt from the book:

This vertically-positioned vocal ramp is shaped like the inner curve of the letter C. When the controls of the upper register are not structurally created and carried downward to cover all the tones of the lower octave, this critically important “vocal ramp” will be missing. Consequently, the only recourse the singer has is to “push upward” in the range the unrefined, thick negative power of the chest register. When the entire vocal “ramp” has been structured to perfection, all vocal movement, in both ascending and descending directions, is always performed with the muscular controls of both registers (never with one single register), with a mixture of the controls of both registers. This is the only way that all tones of the lower octave will function in permanent harmony with the tones of the upper octave of the vocal range. There are other important reasons why the upper register’s muscular controls must overlap the entire lower register. Such as: the process of matching the vowel/throat-sockets of the lower octave to those of the upper octave. That can only be accomplished after structuring the upper portion of the “vocal tract” first. Until the long-term process of “stretching” downward and strengthening the action of the upper register’s muscular controls is accomplished, there is no hope for the singer to achieve a musically functioning ascending scale of vocal phrase. “Power” and “core brilliance”, drawn from the muscular actions of the “raw” chest voice, must never be allowed to function independently, in any part of the vocal range, but must be “restrained” and “attached” to the controls of the upper register. Prior to proper structuring, these upper register controls are inoperative in the lower octave, and must be calculatingly established there. Once the upper tones of the falsetto register, Fn above middle C, upward to high C, have reached advanced development, they create an upward pulling action—pulling all the tones of the complete range in an opposite direction from the lower chest register. This “upward pull” is used to help the ascending movement of all vocal scales and phrases. While the developed upper register’s tones tend to pull upward, away from the chest voice, the chest register tends to pull downward, away from the upper register. This lower register’s behavior is also correct, and the singer must utilize its downward pulling, muscular action in order to counter the upward pull of the upper register. These upward and downward pulls of both registers are the only manner by which the singer can properly control the ascending and descending movements of his voice.

Anthony Frisell; Adolph Caso (2010-04-22). THE TENOR VOICE (Kindle Locations 1751-1777). Branden Books. Kindle Edition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert à question, isnt it hard to sing closed vowels up in the highrange if we dont practice them?

http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=SE#/watch?v=3zQOZD4qE20

Like the singing in this clip at 2:32 and forward youll hear loads of closed vowels in high registers. I think its à great skill to be able to have, and i Consider it very Hard to sing this way. I cant do it this way, but i think you must train the closed vowels to be able to sing this.

Would really like your input and thoughts on this, since i hear loads of great singers Especially tenors sing this way :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you picture Bob singing "High on a hill was a lonely goatherd" with his new Frisell voice?

Yes, I could totally imagine it. And want to hear it. But let's not rest on our laurels. Shall we throw down a Gauntlet. How about some selected bits from "Bohemian Rhapsody"?

You asked for terms outside of CVT or even TVS. I used to picture rasp up high as "leaky air." Chew on that for a while.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ronws, that leaky air picture might work for you and I kind of understand what you mean, but there is a bit of a danger with that picture, because one of the worst things you can do for high rasp is to be too breathy. You need to exhale almost no air at all with high pitch rasp. Otherwise it will hurt your throat. When a random person just SCREAMS, he/she usually uses too much air and can't do it for long. That's why there's an art to singing with rasp night after night. If something hurts your throat you need to stop right away and do something that doesn't hurt your throat. Or take a break.

Here's one VERY helpful tip for high rasp for people who understand modes (I guess it would apply also for TVS modes): If you are sustaining a non-raspy note and want to put rasp on top of it, make sure that you don't change modes! F.ex. if you're in edge mode above the passagio, it's quite temping to produce rasp simply by increasing your vocal weight and volume, therefore moving you from edge to overdrive (taking chest voice quite high) and just louder and louder past all barriers until the sound distorts. If you're concious of STAYING in edge and just overtwang to distort your voice, along with almost holding your breath back entirely, it will be much, much easier on your throat. That's what the masters of rasp do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can you picture Bob singing "High on a hill was a lonely goatherd" with his new Frisell voice?

hey, it never hurts to diversify...lol!!! it's actually a lot of fun sounding like a woman...lol!!

i'm building a "head voice ramp." frisell's the man right now.

when i sing from now on, my new plan (which for me will take a lot of discipline) is when i hit the passagio, i've got to be into head no more carrying up (for now anyway).

but for right now, in terms of exercising, i'm focused on building a huge, deep, resonant, ringing head voice from the top down.

ron, you know the book...are you going to try it?/have you tried it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This weekend, if I get some time, Ill try to do a quick little TMV Forum demonstration of TVS Distortion... the things I have been working on and teaching my students lately and upload it to the "Rob Box.net" folder...

Looking forward to this demonstration Rob.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...