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Would really appreciate advice regarding Brett Manning's vocal lessons


Cone2011

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Thom Yorke is also one of my favorite singers. As subjective as music is, I would argue he is by far the best combination of "technical"-sounding singing and great songwriting/composition. I post a video of one of their best songs below. Check it out everyone!

I think we have similar goals Cone... initially I was put off by the "vocal athleticism" concept, because I come from an aesthetic background whereby my favorite singers strain to sing a middle C and I wouldn't have it any other way. Once you realize how much work and time and musculature is involved in making noticeable improvements, you may end up sympathizing with the term.

In much the same way how you will not sound like an opera singer after training with a classical teacher for a few months, you may not sound like someone as idiosyncratic as Yorke no matter what program/teacher you train with. It's depressing, but the quicker you learn this the better off you are, trust me - the best you can aim to sound like is a much better version of yourself. So, you may as well eschew Mastering Mix in favor of something more intense like Pillars 2.0 and lessons. Lunte's lessons are very affordable in packs of 3, especially in comparison to many other teachers or organizations that may not even offer his kind of free email correspondence when you need help. You can guess what one of those organizations is!

It's a bit perplexing, however, that Brett Manning is influenced by Matthew Bellamy in some of his own songs. Bellamy is obviously reminiscent and influenced by Yorke. Having extensively trained with SS an a bit of Mastering Mix (and the vibrato one, which is good), I just don't think Brett has ever made a program that gives so much as a tool set to sound like the aforementioned singers, which Lunte's does (see intrinsic anchoring.)

But if you do want to sound like Yorke... I'm not sure if Pillars has got every aspect down. I think TVS is opposed to falsetto as an artistic tool, which is one of Yorke's trademarks. Falsetto is the artistic choice of diverse popular artists such as U2, Radiohead, Coldplay, Kent, Muse, Bee Gees, Jimmy Somerville, Queen, some Smiths songs, Justin Timberlake, TV on the Radio... the list never ends, so I would love to see Robert implement falsetto-strengthening thoroughly if he decides to update Pillars at some point. That's my only criticism.

The best song I can think of that extensively uses falsetto is this

One thing that makes being "Robert Lunte" frustrating, is when people pontificate on what "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0 that are in need of more understanding. Frankly, I see this in several posts in this discussion. And here again, I see it.

Asim, I know you mean no harm and I honor you as a client, but to make a statement that Cone can't learn Falsetto from "Pillars" is speaking out of inexperience and it sounds absurd to my "ears". That is not true. But I understand what you are trying to say... I think you are trying to explain to Cone that a big focus on "Pillars" is to learn how to "connect" in the head voice, which means learn how to sing WITHOUT sounding falsetto in the head voice and yes, the intrinsic anchoring you are learning about in your training with me, is a big part of learning how to do that.

For starters, for anyone to say, "I don't want that total vocal athleticism" is like saying, I don't want to be the best I can be as a singer? Or, "I don't want the be a complete, full man in all my masculinity (assuming we are talking about a heterosexual here for my example), only being partially a man is what I want". Cone, you want total vocal athleticism as a singer, because you want to be able to sing what ever it is your creative mind can conjure up, today or in the future. You want to train for anything and to the point others have made here, you want to train for your potential, your sound, who you are as a singer, not to copy another singer. Your not training to sing like Tom Yorke, your training to sing like "Cone" and in my opinion, "Cone" and all students of singers need to boldly go where no man has gone before with a fully loaded Star Ship, not some impudent, half-trained vocal ability?

Shoot for the the best you can be in everything you do and stop worrying so much about style and comparing your potential and your dreams against some other singer. Your still thinking, "I want to sing like that guy, or this guy" ... that is OK in the beginning. It is the source of inspiration which lights the spark, but it is also an attitude that is very neophyte. Very much from someone that has yet to begin the journey of voice training in a way that voice training becomes part of who you are, a lifestyle, not who someone else is and only a dream.

Everyone goes through this stage, I did too... years ago and one of the first pages in the eBook of "Pillars" is a short little story about my moment of inspiration that changed my life... a true story, but after you have invested in a vocal training program, you are not in that league anymore. Just the pure act of taking action to get a vocal training system and begin training, takes you out of the class as a star fleet student and makes you an Anson... someone that has a long way to go, but is at least in the game.

With singing, get into the game fully and don't set ridiculous limitations on yourself based on "I want to sing like that singer or this singer". Frankly, until you really get into your voice and learn what the heck it is all about, you can't know what your "style" is going to be or what you are capable of or what will still inspire you! You have to discover yourself as a singer. Cone could begin serious training on "Pillars" 2.0, have an intuition for intrinsic anchoring and suddenly say to himself, "Oh my God... that sounded really cool. I want to do that again!... and it was easy for me... thats not what Thom Yorke is doing... I like Thom Yorke, but ... show me singers that make sounds like this... now I'm getting really excited!"... that could happen... in my opinion and experience, once you really begin to "boom" in your head voice and Falsetto is not your only option anymore, singers quickly begin to see the light and begin working hard toward the intrinsic anchoring as the baseline of their sound and use Falsetto and Distortion as effects... but I digress...

With all due respect, grow out of that stage and move into the real world of singing to achieve your dream and change your affirmation to , "Ok, I want this so bad, I made in investment and purchased a vocal training system, now I'm going to start training and first, learn how the voice works, develop my muscle memory, pitch, coordination, etc... train 4 - 5 days a week for 90 days and in that process,,, keep my mind open to discovering who I am as a singer? What is my tone? What kinds of things can I do with my voice that I did not expect? Where are my challenges I need to train with Robert via a few internet lessons? What feels right to me? What is fun? etc... You WILL discover that finding yourself as a singer, is a much bigger and exciting experience then, "I want to sing like that singer and in that kind of style", limited neophyte kind of thinking.

What is your hurry, can you not just step into a system like "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0, do what you are instructed to do in the training system and learn something about singing and yourself before you decide what your future is as a vocal artist? Do you marry the first girl you date or do you date lots of ladies first to learn about what your preferences are and indeed, to just learn what women are all about?

In regards to this Thom Yorke song... :rolleyes: am I missing something here? From a technical perspective this is a joke, no offense to Thom Yorke. Now don't misread me, from an artistic perspective, its very cool. I enjoyed the song, I truly did and I enjoyed his falsetto singing approach for this song. (and yes Asim, this is falsetto vocal mode, mostly... ), but if you read "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0, you will notice that I have discussed the value of Falsetto on several occasions, including categorizing the 7 Estillian vocal modes into additional TVS groupings that further help us to sort their value to singing, which I personally feel is one of the cool innovations I developed in "Pillars" to further help singers:

1). Primitive Vocal Modes

&

2). Invention Vocal Modes

Primitive Vocal Modes: Vocal modes that are intuitive and have been with the human species for millions of years. Some may be used in singing or voice training, but they do not necessarily require training for anyone to do; Speech, Belt, Falsetto, Sob (which is just crying). Everyone can phonate these vocal modes. You can learn to phonate them better through vocal training, such as Falsetto and belting, but for the most part, just about anyone can intuitively sing these vocal modes.

Therefore, your Thom Yorke sample leave me saying to myself, "whats the big deal... this guy is just blowing vaporous falsetto candy kisses, it sounds cool in the proper context, I enjoy the song, but technically, this is nothing anyone, including Cone can't do to some degree. Cutting to the chase, if Cone wants to better his already existing, intuitive Falsetto singing, training with "Pillars" 2.0 and taking three lessons with me over the internet will pretty much take care of that. The short of it is, this is easy and "Pillars" can train someone to phonate Falsetto as easy as the Star ship Enterprise can vaporize the space shuttle.

Invention Vocal Modes: Vocal modes that are not intuitive and require specialized training: Opera, Twang & Distortion Effects. This is the hard stuff and Asim is correct, "Pillars" 2.0 is most certainly focused on training people how to do "Twang" & "Distortion". HOWEVER, we also work with Falsetto all the time at TVS, in our training.

The Case For Falsetto:

We are not "Falsetto haters" at TVS! :rolleyes: It is true, that as we work to train the "invention modes" in "Pillars" 2.0 and that means, when singing in the head voice, you will learn to modify from Falsetto vocal mode to a "twang-like" configuration with intrinsic anchoring (good call Asim, I can tell you are reading and watching the lectures)... however, I also make it VERY clear in "Pillars" 2.0 that we use Falsetto as a tool in our training. We love Falsetto at TVS! First, for the rare occasion when some people want to use it in their art like Cone... and secondly, to help singers coordinate and calibrate the timing and resonant placement of their bridged head tones. Because Falsetto vocal mode is characterized by a 90-100% windy sound, open glottis and it only resides in the head voice... students of TVS use it to become acquainted with the head voice. We use Falsetto to learn where future "boomy" twang phonations will one day be placed and we use Falsetto in our "lift up / pull back" technique to train the timing of register bridging... ALL OF THIS is explained in high definition video demonstrations of yours truly doing it, as well as, audio files, lectures and in the book. It is explained in so many ways and and formats, there should not be any confusion on this point. So Asim, did you see the lecture called, "lift up / pull back" and all the other moments in "Pillars" where I am making a point that Falsetto is important to our training? Maybe not so much in our art for most people, but, in our training, every day.

I hope that clarifies for you all a bit... the bottom-line is:

1). When you begin voice training, begin the training and end the "I want to sing like that singer" thought process. Get ready to discover yourself.

2). When you begin voice training, train fully. Not partially and become a full vocal athlete, capable of doing anything you want. Becoming a vocal athlete is something you aspire and champion, it would not be something you don't want to become.

3). Generally speaking, Falsetto is easy. Its intuitive for most everyone, so if singing in your Falsetto is what inspires you, that will come quickly.

4). Falsetto training and understanding when and how to use it is definitely part of the content of "Pillars" 2.0. Any notion that we don't train Falsetto or couldn't help a singer learn how to apply it to their art would be an erroneous observation of "Pillars" 2.0 and would be, most likely unknowingly, misleading other readers of this discussion on what "Pillars" 2.0 offers.

I hope this helps...

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Ok now im writing this as à Guy who both has tried ss/sls approach ryv,tvs first edition, cvt, some bel canto and various others. The problem wth this discussion is That all of you are discussing style, in My mind style is something personal youlearn by Mimicing your artists. Sure there are some style lessons in ss, mm but in all do respect those exercises wont turn you into thom york...

The way you should approach singing techniques is considering them going to the gym, you are working out your voice. This is the strenght and down fall of these singingpackages in My mind, sure you will get good exercises to help strengthen your voice but if you just focus on the scales and dont sing songs you Will still have à Hard time improving as à Singer.

That was à huge problem for me when i trained ss cds.

I agree with most youve Said Robert and i know your techniques applies to alot more then rock. But why shouldnt we mimic our favourite artists?

Let me explain this, singing and talking is about mimicing, talking is not something That was natural to the people qouting you on the"4million years ago" its somthing man invented and learned to control.

We learn to talk and sing by mimicing our parents, its not à natural occurence. Therefor i rather would Consider being who you are or singing like "cone" or "Robert" is take the bits and pieces of who you like.

What Will make us unique is our physical shape .

I also think twang and distortion could be considered primitive vocalmodes, if you look at babies they both intigrate twang and distortion into their sounds. But when they grow up and starts to mimic their parents these talents are for most people forgotten and must be relearned.

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Good arguments Jens, great to see you here. Hope you'll pick up the upgrade, its a big leap forward... and some pretty novel content you won't see anywhere else... a vocal technique geek like you, will really enjoy it.

Did it sound like I was saying to not put some time into singing like other singers that inspire you, at least a little bit? Well,... inspiration is very important and you CAN get something from that, so it has some value. I think what I was really trying to communicate was that this is still something that, in my view, once you get to a novice level on your vocal technique and are possibly even writing your own lyrics for your own original music, you should be spending most of your mental energy on. Once you have some fundamental training under your belt and are actually in the sport of voice training, begin putting energy into discovering YOUR voice. Jens, you know there is a fine line between being inspired by a certain singer, singing a tribute song by them and getting some ideas... and not training to discover who you are as a singer to discover what your sound and capabliities are about. I simply don't want to see students of singing, become fixated on "singing like another artist". Be inspired by another artist, great... do a tribute song by another artist, great. Sing in a cover band, great.... defining who you are as a singer entirely by another singer, uh... no. I suppose its a grey area, but Im always pushing my students and people I come across to strive for more, to explore and discover beyond what you expected. Push the boundaries of your possiblities... that is my instinct as a voice coach and that is what Im about. Im not in the business of settling for 'good enough" or "partially" this or "partially that", or letting others settle for "I dont want to be a vocal athlete" and "I want to sing like this other singer". Im trying to help Cone, as I have in this entire discussion..... But Cone is not my client, so if he wants to not be a vocal athlete and make falsetto his baseline sound, then who am I to stand in his way. Go for it....

In regards to the concept of primitive and inventive Estillian vocal modes... a baby certainly may phonate a twang-like sound, but it has no control over it. It has no mastery over when to turn it on, when to turn it off, throttling it up, throttling it down, etc... My point on this was clear that we are talking about "trained" and thus, mastery of these vocal modes, not the occassional, random phonations of a baby. You are not going to hear any infant sing a boomy G4 with proper anchoring/vocal mode switching, vowels, support and vibrato, let alone asking an infant to produce vocal distortion by aggressively contracting the twanger and pushing down and out with their extrinsic respiratory system...

I am talking about an application to singing and preuming we are talking about a level of execution that is amazing, consistent for singing, not crying and farting to get their diaper changed.

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Okay understood Robert. If only I didn't write that last paragraph! :P That's very relieving to hear despite the obligatory reprimanding. My misunderstanding was that deploying twang was to eliminate falsetto altogether, and that falsetto in the "lift up - pull back" sequence was nothing more than providing a "bridge" to stabilize bridging/connecting. I didn't know it could somehow strengthen falsetto too.

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Well Robert dont insult the little shitmakers, they have nearly perfect vocsltechnique and great breathing for the sounds they produce. Thats why they can scream for so long without getting hoarse.

My point is mainly twang can be considered à primal sound aswell as distortion :)

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Okay understood Robert. If only I didn't write that last paragraph! :P That's very relieving to hear despite the obligatory reprimanding. My misunderstanding was that deploying twang was to eliminate falsetto altogether, and that falsetto in the "lift up - pull back" sequence was nothing more than providing a "bridge" to stabilize bridging/connecting. I didn't know it could somehow strengthen falsetto too.

Asim, I think you DO understand it well... your understanding is more or less my understanding as well... but the unique issue we have here is a student of singing that WANTS to sing in Falsetto... My point is, great, sing Falsetto all day long... do it until you drop, but it is not something that is hard to do compared to the intrinsic anchoring and twang formants you and I are training Asim.... and what you and I are training is what 95% of what all students of singing are wanting to train as well... thus, I have produced and written a training system that addresses how to do that... not so much how to sing Falsetto. If you wanted to discuss technique of singing in Falsetto, I think it would be about 5 or 6 pages and two videos... it is not something people "train" to learn how to do.

So long as you have windy respiration through your glottis and you are placed in your head voice, your singing falsetto. So if you want to push down and out on your respiratory support and increase the PTP (phonation threshold pressure) in the sub-glottis region, then I suppose... technically, you'll "reinforce" your fasletto and essentially blow even more hot air! But as soon as your vocal folds close/adduct and the windiness of your phonation is replaced with a real tone... be it quack mode, twang mode or twang mode with good intrinsic anchoring & formant... you are no longer singing in Falsetto.

Be careful not to confuse "Falsetto" with "head voice"... its not the same thing as you should know from your "Pillars" lectures... I think a lot of people like to call twang a "reinforced falsetto", in doing so, they are saying that Falsetto and Head Voice mean the same thing. They think that Falsetto is a register and it is not. Can you reinforce Falsetto? Sure, I guess... blow more hot air... but if and when it becomes a real tone, its not falsetto anymore... its probably a twang-like phonation that is placed in your head voice.

I refer you to "Falsetto is NOT your Head Voice!" lecture in your training system Asim...

I look forward to training with you again.. great job yesterday over the internet as well.

Jens: Ya, ya... ok... all human beings have the ability to twang and distort and sometimes we all do it by accident as a result of some other application or emotional response... but again, I am talking about mastery of these modes at the level required for great singing... C'mon Jens... give me a break... Im trying to get stuff done today...

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Hi everyone - can I just say I'm really thankful for the amount of responses people have given! It's really helpful and I have loads of answers and follow-up questions I need to give, but I've been out all day, I'm knackered, and I really need to hit the sack!

Can I just clear up one thing though:

At no point have I said I want to sound like Thom Yorke! I think there's just been a bit of Chinese whispers going on. I said in the OP that my favourite singer was Thom Yorke, just to give you an idea of what sort of music I'm into and a bit about me. Asim responded (cheers) and sort of said he really likes Yorke too but his voice is so idiosyncratic I'm unlikely to ever sound like him. He's also posted that video of 'Reckoner', which is one of my favourite Radiohead songs, but I'm not sure if it's his most virtuoso vocal performance. For that, having a look off 'Jigsaw Falling Into Place' off the same album I would say is the best place to go, in my opinion.

I'm not one for trying to sound 'like' another artist. You've got to sound like you. Asim mentioned Matt Bellamy; don't get me wrong, I really like Muse, but I'm not that into Bellamy's vocals, probably because I think he's really obviously trying to rip off Yorke.

I think you obviously get influenced in how your singing voice develops unconciously through what singers you listen to, otherwise if you actively try and sound too speech level (is that a correct term?) like yourself, you end up like one of these vocalists who almost sound as if they're talking in pitch. These people litter the UK Indie scene, a more pop one you might know in the US is Lily Allen.

This may be garbage, but I'd like to think that you could sort of divide singers of popular music into two groups. There are some singers, mostly your American Idol winners as a good example, that have very versatile, pretty voices; they'll sing almost anything quite well. Then there are idiosyncratic ones, probably like Yorke and Bellamy, who only really fit their own music, but they excel at it, and that's what makes their voices so special. I've heard Thom Yorke cover 'Wonderwall' by Oasis with an acoustic and it was one of the most terrible things I've ever heard. Bellamy covered Nina Simone's 'Feeling Good', and that only worked well because he completely scrambled his arrangement for the song, so it sounded more like a Muse song.

I want to sound like me because I want to sing my own written songs and rubber stamp them, not make it sound like a Thom Yorke impersonator is singing some new material!

Plus quickly - Robert, the only reason that I said that the only thing I was aiming for was to "sing decently" at the moment, is because I want to get to a level where I can actually go out and perform. I'll kick on from there!

Meant to keep this brief but it's dragged on a bit! Will post more tomorrow hopefully - thanks again.

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Hi everyone - can I just say I'm really thankful for the amount of responses people have given! It's really helpful and I have loads of answers and follow-up questions I need to give, but I've been out all day, I'm knackered, and I really need to hit the sack!

Can I just clear up one thing though:

At no point have I said I want to sound like Thom Yorke! I think there's just been a bit of Chinese whispers going on. I said in the OP that my favourite singer was Thom Yorke, just to give you an idea of what sort of music I'm into and a bit about me. Asim responded (cheers) and sort of said he really likes Yorke too but his voice is so idiosyncratic I'm unlikely to ever sound like him. He's also posted that video of 'Reckoner', which is one of my favourite Radiohead songs, but I'm not sure if it's his most virtuoso vocal performance. For that, having a look off 'Jigsaw Falling Into Place' off the same album I would say is the best place to go, in my opinion.

I'm not one for trying to sound 'like' another artist. You've got to sound like you. Asim mentioned Matt Bellamy; don't get me wrong, I really like Muse, but I'm not that into Bellamy's vocals, probably because I think he's really obviously trying to rip off Yorke.

I think you obviously get influenced in how your singing voice develops unconciously through what singers you listen to, otherwise if you actively try and sound too speech level (is that a correct term?) like yourself, you end up like one of these vocalists who almost sound as if they're talking in pitch. These people litter the UK Indie scene, a more pop one you might know in the US is Lily Allen.

This may be garbage, but I'd like to think that you could sort of divide singers of popular music into two groups. There are some singers, mostly your American Idol winners as a good example, that have very versatile, pretty voices; they'll sing almost anything quite well. Then there are idiosyncratic ones, probably like Yorke and Bellamy, who only really fit their own music, but they excel at it, and that's what makes their voices so special. I've heard Thom Yorke cover 'Wonderwall' by Oasis with an acoustic and it was one of the most terrible things I've ever heard. Bellamy covered Nina Simone's 'Feeling Good', and that only worked well because he completely scrambled his arrangement for the song, so it sounded more like a Muse song.

I want to sound like me because I want to sing my own written songs and rubber stamp them, not make it sound like a Thom Yorke impersonator is singing some new material!

Plus quickly - Robert, the only reason that I said that the only thing I was aiming for was to "sing decently" at the moment, is because I want to get to a level where I can actually go out and perform. I'll kick on from there!

Meant to keep this brief but it's dragged on a bit! Will post more tomorrow hopefully - thanks again.

LOL... Im not laughing at you Cone... its just funny... sometimes the TMV Forum spins of into debates that can digress from the original post... but Im glad you got some answers and some things to think about. Let us know if you have more questions or feel free to email me personally if you like, Im happy to help you.

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Can I just clear up one thing though:

At no point have I said I want to sound like Thom Yorke! I think there's just been a bit of Chinese whispers going on. I said in the OP that my favourite singer was Thom Yorke, just to give you an idea of what sort of music I'm into

I'm not one for trying to sound 'like' another artist. You've got to sound like you. Asim mentioned Matt Bellamy; don't get me wrong, I really like Muse, but I'm not that into Bellamy's vocals, probably because I think he's really obviously trying to rip off Yorke.

This may be garbage, but I'd like to think that you could sort of divide singers of popular music into two groups. There are some singers, mostly your American Idol winners as a good example, that have very versatile, pretty voices; they'll sing almost anything quite well. Then there are idiosyncratic ones, probably like Yorke and Bellamy, who only really fit their own music, but they excel at it, and that's what makes their voices so special. I've heard Thom Yorke cover 'Wonderwall' by Oasis with an acoustic and it was one of the most terrible things I've ever heard. Bellamy covered Nina Simone's 'Feeling Good', and that only worked well because he completely scrambled his arrangement for the song, so it sounded more like a Muse song.

I want to sound like me because I want to sing my own written songs and rubber stamp them, not make it sound like a Thom Yorke impersonator is singing some new material!

Actually, I totally get it. I was inspired by Axl Rose to really develope my tenor range. And I sound nothing like him and don't try to.

"Highway to Hell" is the theme song of my life. In fact, it's the general ringtone on my phone. And I will song that song for as long as I can. And I don't sound anything like Bon Scott. I am inspired by the music and the attitude.

I really like performing "Rainbow in the Dark" and incorporate some of the melodic elements of the performance at Wacken in 2004. Even though I don't sound like RJD and don't care if I do not sound like him.

Dave Grohl of Foo Fighters sounds great on his stuff. And stunk on his version of "Stairway to Heaven."

James Hetfield could never sing the original arrangement of "Whiskey in the Jar" as performed and recorded by Luke Kelly and the Dubliners. But he makes it his own and that sounds fine, in his growly baritone style. I like his for different reasons than I like the original.

Rock on, Cone.

To me, vocal athleticism is doing everything your voice can do, whatever that is.

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This may be garbage, but I'd like to think that you could sort of divide singers of popular music into two groups. There are some singers, mostly your American Idol winners as a good example, that have very versatile, pretty voices; they'll sing almost anything quite well. Then there are idiosyncratic ones, probably like Yorke and Bellamy, who only really fit their own music, but they excel at it, and that's what makes their voices so special. I've heard Thom Yorke cover 'Wonderwall' by Oasis with an acoustic and it was one of the most terrible things I've ever heard. Bellamy covered Nina Simone's 'Feeling Good', and that only worked well because he completely scrambled his arrangement for the song, so it sounded more like a Muse song.

I want to sound like me because I want to sing my own written songs and rubber stamp them, not make it sound like a Thom Yorke impersonator is singing some new material!

Plus quickly - Robert, the only reason that I said that the only thing I was aiming for was to "sing decently" at the moment, is because I want to get to a level where I can actually go out and perform. I'll kick on from there!

Meant to keep this brief but it's dragged on a bit! Will post more tomorrow hopefully - thanks again.

Haha, I had a feeling but I got too excited at the prospect of an aspiring singer being a Thom Yorke enthusiast. I always felt like an outcast in learning how to sing, because people tend to gravitate towards more metal or more pop stuff and I'm neither here nor there. It's great to see someone who appreciates that indie side of things - it seems to be the antithesis (and for good reason) of singing forums. Most people with your sensibility, judging by your posts, would just go out there and wing it wherever they can with no regard to technique so it's cool you came here.

Admittedly I never found the idea of being subconsciously influenced by other singers via listening plausible IMO. Unless I'm singing to the songs of a singer I like, it goes through one ear and out the other. Otherwise I always feel left to my own devices.

Also that cover of "Wonderwall" was just him "taking the piss" as you guys say. :P I wouldn't be surprised if he did an equally good if he seriously tried.

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... Excellent point and I think the "good" to most people is the sound, not from Falsetto - but a normal / neutral position G4. And adding to Rob's point, you can have all 3 (and learning the techniques ... more).

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Guys, was meant to respond a lot earlier but singing has been on hold for a bit. Since Wednesday last week I've felt a lump in my throat, unprecedented hoarseness and scratchiness when doing even simple exercises, decreased range; generally the larynx has felt really yuck and my voice tires quickly. Everything is painless when not singing heavy or shouting.

Maybe the voice is just tired because I've done quite a lot of singing up to Wednesday - but looking it up on the net I'm a bit worried it could be a vocal cord nodule. Off to the doctors on Wednesday next week.

I doubt the Mastering Mix that we've been discussing here is so much at fault as that doesn't feel too straining. I should say I heavily clear my throat a hell of a lot which is harsh on my cords, and I probably shout a lot at my brother! I don't smoke.

Don't know if any of you can shed any light on this, if it's something to worry about. Could you steer clear of laying into any systematic vocal training problem that may per chance of caused this though... I'm more concerned about the symptoms themselves.

Thanks if you can help - I thought it best to post in here rather than start another thread.

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You don't have nodules. Anytime people get a vocal strain or what ever... they always leap forward and begin worrying about vocal nodules. Of course I can't be sure because I'm not your doctor, but that is very unlikely... so relax!

Also, vocal fatigue or problems are not to be blamed on any vocal training system of merit, it is to be blamed on your poor speaking habits... usually that's the source, its not your singing, its your speaking habits. Many people speak with a bottom-up grind to their voice and these people are at risk of vocal health problems... if this person is a singer, people tend to blame it on their singing. Singing can create problems too, for sure... but not good singing... only doing things wrong.

Remember, singing technique is about HEALTHY phonations and doing things that are healthy, not unhealthy. As I know you are training with TVS or at least were at sometime, I have no way of verifying what the hell you have been doing that caused this, I have to question if your doing things properly? I would like to see you do what ever it is you are doing, or think is "TVS" over the internet and help you and fix the issue... If I can. Also, you mention you are training a lot... Cone, don't train too much. I see students do this too sometimes, they are so excited and motivated about it, they train WAY TOO MUCH... you have to let the voice rest!

You state: "Everything is painless when not singing heavy or shouting".

Why would you be "singing heavy"? Do you mean "heavy mass"? The TVS training system clearly states that you should never sing "heavy mass", or basically push... which I would guess, you are. Even worse, why would you be "shouting" and what source of information do you have , is instructing you to "shout"? Stop shouting Cone... ? This confuses me... after both SS and TVS and this forum discussion and all the information you have at your disposal, why would you be shouting?

Before you conclude that some "systematic vocal training" caused this... I think you need to look at the far more likely cause of this, and that would be you. You caused this Cone, not some vocal training system. Both SS and TVS if anything, will build more vocal health, not break you down.

So anyways, your probably training too much, you most likely are pushing and grinding your vocal folds... your phonations have WAY too much mass and your likely not bridging properly to get any considerable problems. Further, your speech habits may be a root of the problem as well. There are many factors involved and likely to point to that are the result of user error. As I said, Im happy to listen to you a moment over skype to do a diagnostic.

Lastly, don't panic. The voice is VERY resilient and it is very, very difficult to develop vocal nodules, they don't develop "that" easy... although, I do believe you are fatigued. Don't worry about your voice, you are fine... but you do need to get some prolonged rest most likely... that means stop practicing and just let your voice rest for about 5-7 days and check in with me if you like to see where the problems are on your technique.

Relax, your fine... but lets address it.

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Steven Fraser and Ronws have more points than me, FYI :) And probably some other guys. I haven't checked.

I buy my forum points in bulk at Wal-Mart. The hardest part is standing in a slow line (they are all slow.) I looked on the package. My points are made in China.

Shyeh-shyeh ni.

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Cone? Please send me a private email and let me know how your visit went... ?

Hey man, thanks for the reply.

The visit to the doctor's was meant to be this coming Wednesday but I've visiting Oxford University so I need a later appointment.

I think you misunderstand the thing I'm saying about "shouting". Not shouting whilst singing of course! I meant I probably shout at my younger brother very occasionally and I wondered if that has been an underlying root of the problem but I doubt it. So to clear up - I don't try and shout while I sing.

Also I don't even know what TVS is, I have only ever used SS in the past, now I use Mastering Mix.

And I seldom try and push.

Robert, I think what I meant instead, is that around the bridges, even quite far away from them, I have had a really disconnected voice over the past week which has never been this much of a problem. The voice seems very hoarse, but it's not so bad up in my head voice.

As I say this isn't a problem I've had before, but I've been training with the program solid every day for the last couple of weeks, is that probably the root of the problem, overdoing it?

And you talk about speech being a problem for the voice? That sounds quite plausible. Should I just try and speak more relaxed in the future, let the jaw drop naturally?

Doctor's appointment is likely to be quite sometime after the coming week, such is how poor the NHS is in this country (UK version of Obamacare). I'll inform you but by the sounds of what you're saying Robert, it's unlikely too serious. My guitar teacher told mean nodules are for belters who use the wrong technique. I rarely belt.

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