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4 Pillars vs KTVA

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Dacadey
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Hi everyone!

I'm wondering which one of these programs is better. Price doesn't matter for me, but quality does :cool: I've done some amateur-level singing, but without actually doing any serious exercises or trying to expand my range or anything of that sort, and I feel it's time to move on. So what are the advantages and disadvantages of each one? Or are they very similar? Would be especially nice to hear it from people who have already done both :)

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I'm not sure if this threads like these are condoned. I both bought - KVTA in May, Pillars in August - and I train with Robert. Draw from that what you will ;)

Saw this on my FB wall in case you're interested http://leftyfretz.com/ktva

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having tried several programs, i have found most vocal programs are very good. i've never found one that was "not good."

if you go at this without any personal instruction, it's a long, hard, road but it can be done.

the biggest element is you, and how much you devote yourself and apply yourself.

that could mean reading the book, or watching the dvd, several times...no one program is going to make you a great singer. you make yourself a great singer.

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VIDEOHERE

Yeah I know, practice makes the singer - the question is which practice would be better?

Asim

So what's the difference between them? Is there something fundamentally different, or are they similar?

regarding the condonation - well, at least my religion does not prohibit me to do that :) I mean, it's like comparing Iphone and some other phone - both usually have some good and some bad sides, and it's pretty legal to do it :cool:

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If it means anything to you, I am buying Roberts program soon as I get my student loan check, and I'll most likely start some routine of 1 hour skype lessons as well. I have Singing Success, that I have been using - and it's ok, but I do not believe that it is the same caliber material as 4 Pillars. Hope this post is ok, and I don't get banned!

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I am by no means an expert or even very good at singing, but for what its worth I bought KTVA and I saw improvements very quickly, he does an excellent job at explaining things. I can't comment on Pillars as I don't have it yet, I do plan on buying it as it seems like a great program, I just want to stick with one for now until I have a better grasp at singing.

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Well,... its not really a matter of tvs vs ktva over which is better? Its just two different world-class voice coaches teaching you probably about 80% of the same stuff, what is interesting is the methodology on how.

I do not have Ken's product, but I do know Ken as an acquaintance and have visited with him on the phone a couple times. I have always felt that Ken has high credibility and I believe he discusses twang and pharyngeal singing (kinda means twanging... in the head voice). Ken understands that we have to bridge to the head voice and work with vowels and things like that. Great coach, lots of performance and writing experience.

The Four Pillars of Singing - 2.0 also covers these same things with a different language, but some terms Ken and i will undoubtedly share. I have become a specialist in developing techniques that make the very advanced and difficult kinds of singing, easier to learn and makes sense. Some of the success people experience with TVS is from the focus on onsets, sirens, understanding work-flows and most exciting... training big boomy head formants that sound like amazing belts. "PIllars" vocalises have about 23 original vocal workouts I created that will push you to the edge of challenge and 11 of the workouts in "Pillars" are inherited from Maestro David Kyle, a teacher BOTH me and Ken trained with. So Ken and I do share a common heritage and legacy with the late Maestro Kyle. In the 4 Pillars of Singing, we cover topics such as:

vocal modes

intrinsic anchoring

Vocal distortion (A great new set of techniques that will have you making healthy distortion sounds fairly quickly).

extrinsic anchoring

bridging the passaggio

microphone technique

learning how to twang

Lowering the larynx

Vowel modification

and more...

Here is a link that shows a current list of what you get:

https://thevocaliststudio.box.net/shared/static/akend8szat8x8k1le62k.pdf

Here is a sneak preview of one of the lectures in Pillars 2.0, called, "The Most Difficult Notes"... there are 22 lectures.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGcZr3l3Bw0

Here is a sample of the vocal workout demonstrations. In this video I am demonstrating a vocal workout I wrote called, "The Staley". It is dedicated to Seattle singer, Layne Staley from AIC. It comes from a set of 6 BLUES workouts that come with Pillars... there are 6 blues scales and 6 "groove" scales... Anyways, the multiple camera edits and angles has never been done before by any vocal training system. It a pretty hot production in addition to being informative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9USjg_GI6iM

The Four Pillars of Singing - 2.0 offers a book, high definition 5 DVDs and Audio 4 CDs... over 16 GB of content, 435 files. The 5 DVDs are filmed with high definition cameras; 22 lectures and about 45 video demonstrations of me doing all the workouts in Pillars... in a most radical and informative way. Pillars also offers all the workouts transcribed into notation for people that want to sit at a piano, specially tuned workouts for women that start in the key of G instead of C so its not too low for the ladies which is a nice feature not been done before and "guide" discs. The "guides" allow you to sing over the top of me or simulated keyboard voices on the workouts... these were designed to help you to learn the workouts quickly. Once you know how they go, you go to the provided, solo piano vocalises.

Well, I would be excited to be your coach and I'm sure Ken would love to hear from you as well. Ken and I are both pretty darn good voice teachers truthfully, you can't lose either way and if you had both systems, that wouldn't hurt you one bit either. As for TVS, I am happy to answer any personal questions you may have about Pillars or singing in general if you like, feel free to send me an email.

Here is the link to the TVS store page: http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/The-Four-PIllars-of-Singing-20_c_34.html

Hope this helps...

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Thanks Jonpall... if im not mistaken, you have Pillars 2.0. There are several performances/demonstrations that Im proud of and you will find the TVS "overlay" distortion throughout the demonstrations as well as a full blown lecture on how to do it... Ill be writing some new articles on it as well. Im working out the work-flow to distortion and commenting on the importance of activating the PTP (phonation threshold pressure) when doing it, its a fairly new concept that Im adding the the TVS teachings. It took us a year and a half to film and edit Pillars 2.0. Its a major production.

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Hi everyone!

I'm wondering which one of these programs is better. Price doesn't matter for me, but quality does :cool: I've done some amateur-level singing, but without actually doing any serious exercises or trying to expand my range or anything of that sort, and I feel it's time to move on. So what are the advantages and disadvantages of each one? Or are they very similar? Would be especially nice to hear it from people who have already done both :)

This kind of question makes me think of going in to a Caddilac dealership and asking for a comparison to another car company. I would think the decision has already been made before I walk into the dealership. For example, I prefer GM cars. So, I don't walk into a Ford dealership asking them to compare. And both makers are fine.

But it is a tough comparison. Both teachers, Robert and Ken, are phenomenal singers, in their own right. And both have students that do incredible things.

One of the main things I see is that KTVA bridges to head voice later than 4 Pillars. I am a classical technique kind of guy, so I prefer bridging earlier. In fact, I would rather just start in head voice and stay there. Then, again, I am a fairly high tenor, so my mileage may vary from someone else's.

So, also, you might compare what it is you expect. Either system can help you. Either instructor will bend over backwards to help you. Prices are comparable.

I can't really recommend one over the other, though I personally prefer 4 Pillars. But that is the thing, see? It is personal. And we can't make that decision for you.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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I am $60/hr , currently.... for internet lessons... apparently Ken must be close to $180. Here is information on my internet lessons offering.

http://www.thevocaliststudiostore.com/Internet-Lesson-Packages_p_32.html

Also, Steve Frasier is one of my mentors and coaches in regards to formants and phonetics. If you like Steve Frasier's work, you may enjoy some of my perspectives on and understanding of how to train singers. Hope this helps.

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Maybe I mispoke on comparable but, really, that is a non-issue for me and I probably should not have said "comparable." I hate these kind of "which is better" threads. As I stated, I like both instructors and what brought me to this forum was a mention of it in a youtube tutorial from Kevin Richards, who has his own school in New York City. And both Ken and Kevin are colleagues, by each of their own admissions, with Robert Lunte. And, as far as I can tell, there is no "professional competition" to woo students and clients. They each respect each others' work. And that is a good thing.

Point being, whatever floats your boat. And I can't really quantify which system is better for what. I've seen videos of Robert's students singing anything from rock opera to country and western.

I have seen a student of Ken singing a totally rocking christian song, which is not as easy as it sounds, and being totally "on point" throughout. And I have seen Kevin explain something so weel that even an electrician from Texas can understand it.

Which do I prefer? Well, like anything for any of us, that is a personal thing, which is totally valid. I prefer 4 Pillars because it is closest to the classical techniques I have studied. Every single student of David Kyle is a singer I have long admired. And Robert, himself, has inspired me with his own performances of both others' work and his own original work.

And I say that in all objectivity, regardless of whether we are friends, or if I have ticked him off, or violated his forum protocal (which I have done, at times.) Black is black and white is white and I will state the truth as I see it, chips fall where they may. (It's my upbringing and it's hard to shed that, just as it is hard to override one's potty-training.) I am a loose cannon but I always hit the target I aim at.

Judge by what you need for your sound. What I like about Robert is that he doesn't make you conform to a sound ideal, per se. Yes, he can give you the methods for assorted effects. But it's really about making the voice you have stronger. And the aforementioned instructors, Robert, Ken, and Kevin, will definitely help you sing rock.

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Here are two lectures from "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0. This is the audio version, but when you invest in the training system, you get the high definition video.

Click Here:

What Are Semi-Occluded Phonations?

https://thevocaliststudio.box.net/shared/static/sek6566ovs4qkn29q2m4.mp3

What Is The Intrinsic Anchoring Set?

https://thevocaliststudio.box.net/shared/static/qkxecyic7idyo6rp10nm.mp3

Hope this helps...

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