Jump to content

Speech level singing for Metal....uh oh

Rate this topic


dr rock
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator

Robert i assume you realise that a lot of what you have written is quite scandalous!

" This is what I have been trying to say. They force one configuration and one value set onto everyone and refuse to adapt and update their pedagogy. They are totally missing the innovation around vocal modes, qualities and understanding the physiology of the larynx and how that changes the acoustics. Its simply out dated and needs to be revamped!"

only when your trying to get foundation and maybe get rid of , relpace bad habits do you have to stick rigidly to the formula. this formula tends to work pretty well. a lot of the concepts certainty did for the bel canto singers 300 years ago. if it aint broke, why fix it? but on saying this as far as i know Seth and the teachers in the SLS world are always coming up with new ideas and exercises but there only ones that reinforce what already works.

"Then they force their teachers to force their students (centre) to defend it under ANY circumstance. Apart from the pedagogy that needs to be updated, there is a culture of "everyone else is wrong and we are right" and "do not consider any other ideas" in SLS. 20 years ago, that worked... today... no one is buying it anymore, other then their students that are drinking the cool-aid and the teachers that simply want to use the "certification" system to help market their business and get more students. "

like i said i had to laugh at your notion that i had been asked to defend SLS. im also i little offended as well actually.

just about EVERY SINGLE school of technique has a bit of "everyone else is wrong and we are right" attitude to it, yours included.

students and teachers like SLS because it works for them. often teachers get into to teaching it because it has helped them selves so much in their own singing.

"SLS is a LOT about marketing and maintaining the 5 level licensing pyramid system that insures that Seth and his heir apparent continue to get paid great gobs of money from licensing fees. If you dont pay the fee, they pull your certificate and you cant use their branding. I know people that spent 20 years dedicated to Seth and SLS and when they left the organization and simply said, "I studied with Seth Riggs" in their resumes... they were sued. You have to PAY to be able to use their brand and logo and if you spent 20 years dedicated to it and then decide to leave, you are sued for mentioning anything about it."

the certification process is there so a standard is maintained. there are too many people out there who read a book, have a lesson or two and think they know whats its about. they do NOT! alternatively there are those individuals that have been in the organisation for sometime and either start to think they know better and want to start doing things there way ( and if "there way" is an inferior version of SLS or even worse buggers some ones voice up, seth doesnt want to have an association to them) or their ego wants some recognition. they dont want to be a smaller fish in the SLS world they want to be the big, fantastic maestro all in their own right.

imagine how you would feel if you saw someone you felt had inferior technique quoting "Robert Lunte" and "The Vocalist Studio" all over the place. you wouldnt want anything to do with them!

"When you point out that this neutral configuration is not going to work for some artists that need more cut and amplification... they say, "We trained Ozzy Osbourne"... its totally lame. Not only is Ozzy Osbourne NOT a great example of incredible vocal technique, ... Ozzy was never his long term student. SLS also is really big on name dropping... they coach one celebrity singer or give a couple coaching tips back stage somewhere and then all of a sudden you see it in all their marketing, "we taught this person. this person is an SLS singer".

no, i have already explained for the XX time that they will include different configurations in the style process with an artist if they want. they just try to get it to be as free and easy feeling for the artist as possible. funnily enough its usually easier when the different configuration is nearer the standard SLS one.

yes i admit that their is a lot of name dropping in SLS but often these artists will give their endorsements very freely because it has helped them so much. some of the biggest names on those lists are not people that have had a few tips backstage they have been students for years sometimes decades. did you know that michael jackson had been studying with seth for 32 years! when he did have a break from seth he went and buggered his voice up on tour!!

yes their are not massive amounts of rockers on that list. paul stanley, vine neil, singer from linken park, singer from evanescence, singer from red hot chilli peppers and such. fair enough there are no progressive, heavy power metal dudes. most of those type of singers feel a bit intimidated by singing lessons "hey man i dont wanna lose my style" and such. if they go for lessons they feel much more comfortable with something that is marketed towards metal/rock such as your stuff or jamies v´s work without realising they might also benefit from other techniques that are not marketed this way.

"Sadly, there is some good pedagogy in SLS to be sure, but they are ruining it by not being adaptive, updating the pedagogy, pride, arrogance and greed!"

robert, you would give your right ball to have an organization like that of SLS. so dont knock something you are trying to create yourself!

Centre',

I dont know why that is "scandalous", Im not bound to SLS, am not obligated to "tow the line" for SLS and am fully entitled to my opinion. Also, I speak from experience. I have studied SLS, or looked into it briefly, I have had a lame voice lesson from one of its "major" leaders that was a waste of time, I have countless friends and colleagues that are x-SLS teachers that have stories that would surprise you and I have been in business deals with SLS and dealt with the "inside" of SLS quite a lot in the last four years. Im not just speaking off the cuff here.

1). SLS claims they are teaaching Bel Canto, there are many people that argue that they are not.

2). "if it isnt broke, why fix it"? , Because time moves on, things evolve, research comes into play, new genre's and new requirements and sounds are needed that were not present in ancient Bel Canto times. Pedagogy needs to change and evolve.

3). You are dead wrong in the notion that every voice pedagogy/school has a "everyone else is wrong and we are right"... I have dedicated the last four years of my life creating online vocal communities that are exactly the opposite. That promote sharing of ideas. None of my friends and the subject matter experts that have joined this web site have that attitude. And TVS does not have that attitude. I pull from SLS, CVI, EVTS, Maestro David Kyle and my own innovation to define my pedagogy. I reach for what works for my students and the facts. You hear me giving credence to SLS, CVI, EVTS and all kinds of camps in my writing. But notice who ISNT here in our community? Where are any of the SLS EMTs? Why have they not bothered to join the #1 community for singers in the world? Ill tell you why, because they are afraid of the repurcussions from SLS leadership for joining any community that is not inside the cult. SLS is kinda "cultish" bro... a lot of people feel that way and that is why a lot of good people have left the organization.

4). The certification process is about credentials and having achieved a certain criteria... that is a good idea. However, in order to be certified, you MUST abandon all your previous pedagogy. You are required to ONLY teach Seth Rigg's workouts... (HUH? :rolleyes:) which pushes out innovation. Also, you are required to pay every year for a certificate and the higher you get in the levels (1-5) the more you have to pay to renew your license. The certification system in SLS is also VERY much about money. Why isnt testing the only criteria for keeping your certificate?They have created essentially a multi-level marketing revenue stream out of the mandatory licensing fees renewals they require their instructors to pay. If you dont pay, you lose your license and you are required to remove all SLS branding from your web site and are not allowed to state that you have SLS experience in your CV. If you do, without paying the renewal fee, you will be sued. If you dont believe, go talk to (can no name names) who spent almost 20 years dedicating herself to SLS and when she left the organization, she simply had "I studied with SLS and Seth Riggs" on her resume... they sued her to take that down. They also tried to sue (you know who, major voice teacher that used to be in SLS) for the same thing. Tell me why someone who has dedicated years to SLS cant be allowed to have a simple statement on their web sites? Havent they earned it? This is wrong.

SUMMARY:

1) They need to update their pedagogy to appreciate vocal modes, qualities and physiology/acoustic relationships and start letting the larynx lift a little bit.

2) A neutral configuration is very difficult to get any kind of convincing rock/metal head tone.

Still waiting for your voice sample...

3). The culture is not open to new ideas and teaches from the top down, that SLS is the holy grail of all pedagogies and there is nothing to learn from anything or anyone else.

4). The certification / licensee renewal process is every bit about money and revenue to the SLS leadership as it is about credentials and testing of the pedagogy.

5). The Modern Vocalist.com is about sharing ideas, arguing ideas, learning, being humble when need be, standing for your convictions when necessary, has over 600 of the world's leading experts on voice... none of which are EMTs from SLS. SLS culture is not about community, and embracing new ideas. Its a closed wall.

Lastly, in regards to your statement about I would give my left nut to have an organization like SLS... you could not be more mistaken. Centre, I have NO interest what so ever in leading a "closed" organization that snuffs out innovation and doesnt understand rock/metal voice techniques. If the truth be known, I far more admire Cathrine Sadolin and her CVI. I have met Cathrine in Copenhagen on two occasions, had dinner with her and her husband and I have found her to be open to new ideas, friendly and personable. Her pedagogy offers singers new choices for any genre', embraces distortion, understands physiology and she is very research oriented.

Enough of this... I think SLS is a great pedagogy and has done much for contemporary voice pedagogy. Seth Riggs is a pioneer, but as pointed out above... the world is moving on and they need to get hip to new trends and let go of the ivory towers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 108
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I think that once this whole debate has been exhausted there will be some great vocal breakthroughs for many of us. We can ALL learn something from each other and it's that spirit that brought me here. I Sincerely hope that Centre continues to post and share his view points and advice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Robert, how about the teachers in Estill, CVT, TVS, SS. do they not pay for certificates and ongoing testing and organizational fee´s?

personally i am open to new ideas and trying things. i posted a clip of trying out a "belt" sound. when i asked martin if i was off centre of the mode i wasnt being arsey. i was genuinely asking!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Centre, Thanks for the clip of yourself belting. Would you mind posting that same technique and word in some different pitches? Especially if you did a higher harmony to that belted note? I'm genuinely interested in hearing how you sound in the higher ranges. I'm assuming that the note you sang is your upper chest range or thereabouts? It's good and powerful and we both sound pretty similar doing that type of belted singing.

I'll try to record myself performing what it is I'm asking of you so you'll understand me better. Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jens...very cool clip! But, I'm confused(I sure hope this doesn't come across wrong:) At first you state:

Speech level singing sure helps with metalsinging, it probably helps all styles. And the larynx issue... Gonna let my imaginary Martin chime in and give a response.

"If the larynx is high or low is not the problem, tensions is the problem" Martin H

The thing is speech level singing also relies on twang, but the twang is not as distinct as in for instance rocktechniques.

Thats why it's so easy to spot a rocksinger from the first note he sings :P you hear that rockytwanged tone right from the start.

THEN, later on you state:

Thanks! yeah i guess i have to work on my pitch a bit ;)... There is no "belting" in that clip by the way. Belting is when you pull chest very high up, the voice is very fullmetallic, in CVT they call this Overdrive and it can sometimes be referred to the mode edge.

What im doing here is a halfmetallic mode, mixedvoice, curbing with added effect. and up on the hightops rockfalsetto,head,metallikeneutral.

what martin did earlyer in this thread is a more suitable sound to call "belting".

To me, because of your involvement/knowledge of CVT...you are absolutely NOT in a position to state emphatically that SLS/SS is great for metal singing. BEST CASE SCENARIO is you are using a "hybrid"(CVT/SLS) knowledge base for this.

I THINK I understand what you are saying though: that Curbing w/ twang and metal-like neutral are great modes for rock/metal singing. If that's the case...I agree. But you should be SHOUTING to the rooftops about CVT allowing one to sing LIKE an sls/ss trained person(i.e. SPEECH LEVEL)...if they choose.

That, to me, is the crux of this argument. Choice. It's all about choice. Do you want a box w/ 10 crayons...or a box with 100 crayons. By the way, I would put EVT in same category as CVT(just not as familiar with it.)

I will post an example of this:

There was a thread on CVI forum(several months ago) asking how to sing Eye of the Tiger(what "modes" used.)

{I can provide link if anyone wants it. Not trying to direct traffic away from this site.)

At the time, I happened to be working on very "twanged" curbing. I had NEVER sung a Survivor tune in my life, although I was certainly familiar with it(gotta love Dave..."Super number one fan foam feeeeeee-he-henger guy."

It took me all of a minute to record a quick clip that was "in the ballpark" :

http://www.box.net/shared/byr2npezl9

There are 2 choruses: 1) Light & Twanged 2) More twanged

Now the point here is NOT that I am a great a cappella Survivor tribute singer(I'm not)...it's that I could be, if I chose to be. Again, all about choice.

One other point...it can be fun debating the different camps/techniques...but at the end of the day, for me, it's all about being able to sing what I WANT TO SING...not what I HAVE to sing, because of vocal limitations.

And lest anybody think I am simply a CVT homer...I have purchased many different methods(latest one being Robert's 4 Pillars.) Did I learn anything?...of course. I picked up a "trick" that immediately helped me. Would it have helped me as much if I was NOT already familiar with vocal technique? I don't know...but it is sure an endorsement to keep an open mind no matter how much you know.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

snax, for the belty stuff your much better off asking martin or analog as i only play around with the sound and Complete Vocal Technique. however if i was to take it up i suppose i add more twang and creaky/edgy sound. however im not good at taking "belt" up :P it starts to lose it thickness and becomes quite strident for me.

as for some metal operatic sounds, bruce D sometimes sounds bit pseudo operatic, especially on stuff like the seventh son of a seventh son album

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you state that just because i know a diffrent terminology I cant state that a program whom ive trained is good for a particular style?A style that me myself sing in,thats just stupid...

And that im a hybrid CVT/SLS is not true either ive trained tons of diffrent techniques and tried to mimic alot of diffrent singers.

CVT is great, I havent stated otherwise, and this thread is not about CVT it's about SS/SLS being good for metal, and in my experience yes it is...'

I think most techniques "allow" people to use the specific sounds trained by ss/sls most of the sounds sound great in singing, why would one prevent that?

Do you want a box of 10 crayons or 100?,ofc you want 100 crayons thats why you both get Sls/SS/CVT/4pillars/jameslugo/ryv/discoveryourvoice/voice of the mind and anything that seams decent, or do you choose the 10 crayons?

You wont get as good high headvoice examples with CVT as with singing success for example, just listen to brett mannings closure on the clips on youtube. Why wouldnt you wanna have that?

Some methods doesnt work for certain people, some people respond well to imaginary sensations, some work well with scales.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jens...I should have worded that differently. I knew it at the time...I just couldn't help myself. I apologize.

Centre/Jens...I hope you realize that I posted that clip "in defense" of a Speech Level configuration(as Jens did with his clip.) I just would not CALL it that:)

Honestly, compared to others on this board...I don't know sh*t about the voice. I have my opinions, based on MY EXPERIENCE, but it really doesn't matter in the end.

Centre,

I would call the effort 5 with "minor constriction. " That was done several months ago. I could do it now with no "perceived" constriction. I will say that it is ALWAYS a battle for me. When I'm singing high, I feel like I'm on constant constriction alert.

Constriction does not give a damn about my "fancy" vocal learnin'!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Snax...I have too much time on my hands...my spouse is traipsing across Europe while I kill time on these forums....ALWAYS with the goal of distracting myself from that most "unholy of abuses " that starts with certain "search" functions on the internet.

With that said,

I will answer you in CVT terms(may not make any sense at first.)

You were singing an Overdrive(vocal mode/configuration) vowel "OH." The reason you had to "flip" is that YOU CANNOT TAKE THAT COORDINATION beyond a High C. I think the last note you hit was Bb. You flipped on the High C. Technically, you could get that High C. Would take more support.

Try the same thing on an "Eh" vowel...as in Hey. Same thing. High C is the max.

I am NOT a teacher. I'm pretty much you without the insane pipes. You will have NO TROUBLE getting where you want to go.

Try directing the Oh to an "UH" vowel...before you "max out." Say around that Bb-make it an UH. You were starting to do that naturally...really direct to more UH. Record it if you can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Analog. I'll see if I can give it a go. I'm curious about something though... Why do you say I have "insane pipes"? What is it specifically that impresses you or stands out? For me my voice is quite limited and although I'm capable of a wide dynamic range my actual comfortable singing range feels quite small. It always seems to be that most songs I like fall into that throat range where I feel choked. That's my main objective, to understand why I feel so tense in that range and how to stop it so I can sing in one seamless, unrestricted but powerful voice.

I'll post a video of me doing a phrase in different styles, modes or whatever the terminology is so you can help me understand which is which. Thanks so much for the kind words though.

P.S. Good luck in restraining yourself from those Unholy internet searches! lol Are you STILL the Master of your domain? ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I'm certainly MASTERing something!

I was referring to your older rock stuff. Voice sounded "connected" and I would NEVER guess that you were uncomfortable. Goes to show.

I'll be glad to help any way I can. I think you do so many things RIGHT, you'll be shocked at how easy it will be to fix whatever needs fixin'. Also, I know you'll get plenty of "expert" advice from others on the board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's funny because on occasion I have stumbled upon the ability to use another part of my vocal range that I would never have though possible but I've got no idea how to explain the sensations or name the actual technique for others. That's why this forum is so wonderful because once we all understand the terminology and are on the same page we have an opportunity to really learn from each other.

You mentioned my older rock voice sounding connected when in actuality i don't think it was most of the time. I learned or muscled my way into pulling my chest voice up quite high but suffered the consequences with nearly constant inflammation and soreness in my throat. Recently I have found that I'm able to sing along with some of the Grim Reaper tracks off the Rock you To Hell album. Steve Grimmett had a very high voice which I always thought was his chest voice but I guess it is actually a "mix" or strong head voice? One song in particular called "I Want More" has such a powerful delivery but it's actually easier for me to sing that range than to sing most lower pitched Journey songs that are right in that damn throat straining range for me!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup...a VERY strong G thru B(Below High C) are the "money" notes in my opinion.

The good news is there are many "options" for singing in that range. And really, knowledge is power here. Just knowing what's "not possible" can be liberating in it's own right(i.e. that clip you did with the "OH.")

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here'a quote from another thread from Robert Lunte that really articulates where I'm trying to go vocally...

"The other thing is that Layne was belting into what we call the "red zone" at TVS... a high chest note that could have been bridged earlier to the head voice to avoid activation of the constrictors to create the choking and difficulties on the higher notes. You can sing like this for a while, but it will burn you out eventually... the technique to avoid this problem is to train to bridge to your head voice and then rebuild a full, convincing chest tone in the head voice... something we train with great success at TVS."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Snax,

My number one goal these days is to Not Grip/Constrict in the throat. It's a constant battle brother. I will say, the better I get with technique, the more aware I am, and that in turn keeps me on track. Believe me, I can go weeks with "superhuman" singing/gigs and then wake up one day and BAM. What the hell? Where the hell did it go?

But NOW when that happens, instead of "muscling" through, I just allow it to go where it wants and eventually it comes around. Never pushing it.

I know some people that never seem to have problems. They wail away night after night, drink, smoke...and never miss a beat. I am VERY jealous. I do NOT have that kind of consistency. But, again, that's why I'm on these forums and why I train every day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

So you state that just because i know a diffrent terminology I cant state that a program whom ive trained is good for a particular style?A style that me myself sing in,thats just stupid...

And that im a hybrid CVT/SLS is not true either ive trained tons of diffrent techniques and tried to mimic alot of diffrent singers.

CVT is great, I havent stated otherwise, and this thread is not about CVT it's about SS/SLS being good for metal, and in my experience yes it is...'

I think most techniques "allow" people to use the specific sounds trained by ss/sls most of the sounds sound great in singing, why would one prevent that?

Do you want a box of 10 crayons or 100?,ofc you want 100 crayons thats why you both get Sls/SS/CVT/4pillars/jameslugo/ryv/discoveryourvoice/voice of the mind and anything that seams decent, or do you choose the 10 crayons?

You wont get as good high headvoice examples with CVT as with singing success for example, just listen to brett mannings closure on the clips on youtube. Why wouldnt you wanna have that?

Some methods doesnt work for certain people, some people respond well to imaginary sensations, some work well with scales.

Why wouldnt you want to have this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YzfVBXnWCk

End of story...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The link doesnt work for me, Robert and one thing doesnt rule out the other... Thats why im trying as many things as possible and it gives results for me, im by no means a vocaltalent.

There are loads of things you want and certain vocalteachings are good for diffrent stuff...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For someone who is starting to see all the pieces come together so he can sing I enjoy these threads. There are so many interesting aspects of singing that I never knew existed and hearing about other techniques and styles can only be a good thing. For me I have chosen a path that motivates me and is one that I feel will get me to where I want to be. Without motivation it doesn't matter what technique you use.

I whole heatedly agree with Analog's statement:

it's all about being able to sing what I WANT TO SING...not what I HAVE to sing, because of vocal limitations.

That helps with the motivation as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ive seen priest live twice in two years. Halford's voice is fine, I can attest. He just can't seem to walk around the stage anymore, :cool:

that probably has to do with his healthier lifestyle and upkeeping his vocal training.

Same with Bruce Dickenson of Iron Maiden. He is faar better a live singer now that he is more fit and better trained than he was at his prime.

I personally don't feel confident about my vocal abilities having not been able to even hit any note correctly just 2 years ago, but now I'm trying Alice In Chains vocals and can do a decent job getting up to Ab (I used Singing Success by Brett Manning - which is SLS - for techniques which definitely got me from only hitting D above middle C to the Ab, but I do raise larynx and is not always reliable when running on stage and I play bass simultaneously.)

It gets problematic with Bb (as in Man In The Box). At times at home when comfortable I can pull up my larynx and get a pretty good controlled tone rolling from Bb to Ab and back and transitioning to chest again. But often when I try this or trying this in rehearsal it just breaks and I just know when its about to hurt my voice.

I can sing the Bb with some "mixed" but it sounds too light, whereas when I pull up the larynx it sounds like high chest voice and is much more convincing (I sound like a pussy without that, ha).

I'm curious as to some ways to relieve the tension and all the other problems (including anchoring and just stamina) associated with this high larynx Bb or even moving on to Chris Cornell Bs, Cs and Ds (Spoonman, etc, though he uses different technique than Layne as far as I can tell)

Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...