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Failing still at singing


D.Starr

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I would recommend that you listen to what I'm advising whether or not its CVT. Training different vowels, achieve different goals and create different responses in the vocal tract. If you want to train on an IPA "ai" as in "sit" all day, go right ahead. On second thought, I think "ai" is actually ok if you open the embouchure. Like Sun said, you can phonate these sounds in different ways often times. I can see how "ai" would be "ok"... but still not better then "eh", "ah" or "uh" for hard core training.

I still do not see much value in IPA "ør", as in "woman". But there may be some merits to it, as I said, there are probably some value out of just about anything vowel you practice, the question is, what do you want to practice? Do you want you sound weak or big and boomy? You can't throttle a closed vowel. We see this in SLS sometimes, they advocate narrowing vowels as well and it may create a configuration in the vocal tract, but the workouts I have heard that incorporate closed vowels are so light and delicate that the end result is not anything can actually use in singing?

If the vowel is not enabling me or my students to sing with a full throttle, "boomy" resonance and thus, get the opportunity to train hard... then Im not much interested in it. I dont want to "curb" when I train? I don't want to phonate candy kisses when I train... when I train, I want to open up the after burners and get a work out. I want to work on the big open vowels that I will need and want when I'm actually singing.

If you were a voice teacher and had the benefit to watch students try to negotiate constriction around vowels like "ør" and "ai", you might not be so enthusiastic to sell closed vowels. I recommend vowels that will help singers get to where they want to go with their singing in the least amount of time. My job and mission is to get results quickly first and conduct interesting science second.

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Hey guys, seen as I have Pillars 2.0 and not used it a lot because I'm so unstable around F4/G4 and seem to be shouting, though I'd give it a crack.

http://www.box.com/s/jqvllgxfiho4zb36etgt

http://www.box.com/s/j6igo6jcquzqnliz6umq

You guys got any suggestions to stabilise it and even out the tone from shouty to a more heady placement?

I leverage my tongue, drop the jaw, lift my upper lip, support.

What does not being unstable around F4/G4 have to do with "The Four Pillars of Singing" 2.0 that you admit your not using? I don't get the connection there? If you were using it and practicing and following the instructions and took 1 lesson with me as I have repeatedly offered, your stability issues would go away.

I listened to your clips:

The first one, your phonations have no reduction of mass. Your in what we call at TVS a "shallow" position, exactly what I predicted with you. The higher the pitch, the deeper the resonant placement Star, stop belting on top... and you need to improve your intrinsic anchoring so you can get your larynx to dampen more

The second clip, The first siren, I actually liked a little bit... the second siren you lost your deep placement and tried to shout at it (belting).

Your onsets are ok, I hear the little quack mode there and thats good... that is helping you.

Overall, you need to lighten the mass the higher you go... your just getting sucked into the "primitive"... shouting... it is close enough, that I think you can get it and win... but without a private lesson to let me help you remove the bugs... I don't know?

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Robert,

Good response.

Curbing does not have to be weak and low volume, quite the contrary it can sound very powerful when done right but since it's very difficult to get right (the most difficult mode according to CVT) it's best to learn it with low volume at first and then when the coordination is there, add volume and power. Walk before run is the case with Curbing. Singer who uses curbing a ton is f.ex. Michael Bolton who by no means sounds wussy. Even though being able to sing softly is just as important as being able to sing with great power.

Also in CVT you are allowed to stray from the "center" of the modes but again, walking before running.

Here is an example of singing where curbing is used (along with other modes), listen 0:43 to 1:08. I counted around 14 I vowels in curbing.

I respect the point you are trying to make, you do not feel the vowels mentioned are best for training. As I said if D.starr is doing TVS I would listen to you (obviously), since I use CVT I will continue to follow their instructions until I stop progressing.

Thanks

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I listened to this Jorn Lande video and what? I didn't hear anything at those time stamps that seemed unique. He is just covering and singing in a heady position with some distortion. Certainly, Lande is not thinking, "ok, now I have to curb now...". But am I alone in the observation that 'nothing happened' at these time stamps?

I was expecting to hear a modification of the vowel or a more prominent covering to a heady position or something?

Anyways, ... those of you reading this that are less experienced on what we are talking about, understand that we are talking about 80% the same thing. As so often happens when discussing vocal technique, its not the outcome or the results that are so different... its the language.

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That was just a demonstration of how curbing can sound with use of narrow vowels, nothing fancy. They don't have to lead to constriction and IMO without them diction will suffer. Maybe you had a different sound figured for the I vowel.

Starr, I agree with Robert you should get a lesson ASAP. Make time, if you care about progressing with singing because honestly I doubt you will progress with forum posts alone. I also feel you are not really dedicating yourself to anything but basically trying out different things, get down and dirty with TVS if you want to progress, just take the aid of a teacher, stick to it and you will make it.

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That was just a demonstration of how curbing can sound with use of narrow vowels, nothing fancy. They don't have to lead to constriction and IMO without them diction will suffer. Maybe you had a different sound figured for the I vowel.

Starr, I agree with Robert you should get a lesson ASAP. Make time, if you care about progressing with singing because honestly I doubt you will progress with forum posts alone. I also feel you are not really dedicating yourself to anything but basically trying out different things, get down and dirty with TVS if you want to progress, just take the aid of a teacher, stick to it and you will make it.

Thank you Sun... its just that everyone has jumped in here to help you Starr and this has been going on for some time now... there comes a time when you have to practice and get a lesson or two to sort it all out. I could be wrong, but it seems we are not getting the progress we want for you and you want for yourself because we may be lacking in some execution... am I wrong? Get off the forum posts for a while and start practicing!

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It's hard because of the time difference and having the house free to sing. Plus with the recession, the hours at work are dreadful and no money is coming in. Im also in need of a new webcam, this one doesn't work at all.

I hear many R&B artists and try and have that style of voice. I love R&B/Pop but I know I end up shouting rather than singing.

The reason I stop and start with Pillars 2.0 is because I forever hit the F4 wall, begin to shout, crack and fail. Then I feel I'm abusing my voice and let it rest and don't really make progress.

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It's hard because of the time difference and having the house free to sing. Plus with the recession, the hours at work are dreadful and no money is coming in. Im also in need of a new webcam, this one doesn't work at all.

I hear many R&B artists and try and have that style of voice. I love R&B/Pop but I know I end up shouting rather than singing.

The reason I stop and start with Pillars 2.0 is because I forever hit the F4 wall, begin to shout, crack and fail. Then I feel I'm abusing my voice and let it rest and don't really make progress.

If you are hitting the F4 wall, even a beginner like me (sort of) can tell it probably means too much volume and weigh. Just go weak and limp and falsetto-esque so that you are at least bridging to the head voice. That lightening and "pulling back" that Rob refers to in the early lectures/sirens stuff is key.

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If you are hitting the F4 wall, even a beginner like me (sort of) can tell it probably means too much volume and weigh. Just go weak and limp and falsetto-esque so that you are at least bridging to the head voice. That lightening and "pulling back" that Rob refers to in the early lectures/sirens stuff is key.

may i just say i'm not so sure that's what you want to do. you're better off with nice connected "ng" sirens...you'll feel the transition to head and still feel connected. there's no reason to get "falsettoey." you need to practise staying connected. taking weight off doesn't mean going weak and limp.

watch that you're not to heavy at the bottom to begin with....otherwise you are doubling the difficulty.

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may i just say i'm not so sure that's what you want to do. you're better off with nice connected "ng" sirens...you'll feel the transition to head and still feel connected. there's no reason to get "falsettoey." you need to practise staying connected. taking weight off doesn't mean going weak and limp.

watch that you're not to heavy at the bottom to begin with....otherwise you are doubling the difficulty.

yeah sorry, when i said 'falsetto-esque' etc... i was exaggerating. I just meant really take off the weight around the break area. Personally i dont seem to have any complaints at this stage

in my own training. I've email Rob about my free lesson and really, like everyone else has said, just get ONE lesson. I mean, a lesson is essentially the price of a night out in the town here in england, so it's worth missing the odd social event or something if it means getting a valuable session with Rob in, i'd say.

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OK so had a singing lesson today with my teacher and he says I just need to relax. I tense up too much as I go higher and recommends that I do hissing an phonations laid down and try and feel the same release and muscle relaxation and the correct tension where needed.

I was also going across the idea of what type of voice I am. I said I hoped I was a Baritone but he said because I can sing a low e2, 2 and half octaves is usually the norm for people so E4 is close to my limit. He didn't say that is my limit, I should be able to sing a few above it, but that's pretty bad for the area of singing I wish to go into.

I was really struggling to get past D4/E4 today, really croaking on the top. I tried to lower my larynx and fell out completely, my throat was tight, which is something I cannot get rid of. I tried the silent H onsets and that helped up to D4. I feel the need to push as I go higher or else I fall out and go into falsetto which then begins to dry me out and hurt my cords. The cry didn't helped, dropping the larynx didn't. It's frustrating.

Also might request a lesson from Rob, not sure when.

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Why is it that I can sing high notes and comfortably with extremely less strain after I've been to the gym?

I feel a major release in the top area, like it's behind my soft palate. 1 hour later and it's all gone :'(

My guess on this is threefold :

Sport :

makes you breathe more efficiently -> better support

distracts your mind -> Less attention to your folds -> Less constrictions

releases endorphines -> More relaxation -> Less constrictions

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OK so had a singing lesson today with my teacher and he says I just need to relax. I tense up too much as I go higher and recommends that I do hissing an phonations laid down and try and feel the same release and muscle relaxation and the correct tension where needed.

I was also going across the idea of what type of voice I am. I said I hoped I was a Baritone but he said because I can sing a low e2, 2 and half octaves is usually the norm for people so E4 is close to my limit. He didn't say that is my limit, I should be able to sing a few above it, but that's pretty bad for the area of singing I wish to go into.

I was really struggling to get past D4/E4 today, really croaking on the top. I tried to lower my larynx and fell out completely, my throat was tight, which is something I cannot get rid of. I tried the silent H onsets and that helped up to D4. I feel the need to push as I go higher or else I fall out and go into falsetto which then begins to dry me out and hurt my cords. The cry didn't helped, dropping the larynx didn't. It's frustrating.

Also might request a lesson from Rob, not sure when.

D.Starr

Although classifying voices like this isnt precise, I am 100% sure that you are not a Bass, and if you are really a Baritone, its a very rare case because your voice is light. Stil I dont hear the timbre of a Baritone in there. Range is useless to determine this.

Ive heard your samples, and from what I hear, support isnt connecting, probably some little ajustment on what you are doing. There is more compression than would be necessary on the voice.

It should feel that the air is first containned and during phonation is being Released rather than Pressed out, the control of the air flow must be on the support muscles, nothing on your neck. Do you have this feeling now? This is really important, without support you have no other choice but strangling after E4/F4. Or just plain screamming.

Or better yet, IF you are supporting and using the wrong coordination, rather than feel strainned, you will feel the larynx open but the chords will litteraly get tired due to the effort of sustainning heavy phonation as the notes go higher.

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i agree with felipe....support.....you have to understand how to divert tension away from the throat so that the throat becomes passive and the muscles relax, to allow the vocal folds to stretch and contract unemcumbered by tension. remember the vocal folds primary purpose is to regulate pitch.

in these sirens you're doing...i would forget about the vibrato for now. ...exercising is not singing.

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The vibrato seems to occur naturally as much as I try to keep it at bay.

I was working on some onsets from Steven Fraser and they helped with the sense of suspension, I still think my support is incorrect. I keep my chest elevated and open and in a sense feel the diaprhagm pull downwards. I also try to let my lower abs do some work.

Its cool to know thar Im not a bass. I just find it hard to successfully lighten my voice and develop it. Support is an issue as I always feel my neck tense. Ive emailed Rob to try and sort a day to work with him. Hopefully I can sort these.

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you keep the chest up, not elevated. d, if you get help you'll be doing the right thing.

just remember...be patient and don't try to rush things....they will come if you work at it consistently and dilligently.

i am so pleased with my gains as close in on just two years, i used to feel like i was going nowhere at times, even got setback with the polyp, scared the hell out of me, but i refuse to give up. you will start to feel an automation to your singing after a while (muscle memory will kick in...a coordination will kick in).

work hard at it.

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The vibrato seems to occur naturally as much as I try to keep it at bay.

I was working on some onsets from Steven Fraser and they helped with the sense of suspension, I still think my support is incorrect. I keep my chest elevated and open and in a sense feel the diaprhagm pull downwards. I also try to let my lower abs do some work.

Its cool to know thar Im not a bass. I just find it hard to successfully lighten my voice and develop it. Support is an issue as I always feel my neck tense. Ive emailed Rob to try and sort a day to work with him. Hopefully I can sort these.

This sense of suspension should work together with your emission, as if they were linked. Air is slowly released as you sing.

So that you understand better what is happening:

When in rest, the lungs have a small quantity of air (they are not empty, if they get empty, you die). The internal pressure of your ribcage and the outside world is matched, the system is equal.

When you inhale, the diaphragm expands and depress into the abdominal cavity, and at the same time the ribcage expands, creating a negative pressure on the ribcage compared with the outside, thus inflating your lungs.

When you exhale, NORMALY, these muscles relax, the diaphragm moves back and the pressure on the ribcage is reduced. Thus the pressure inside the lungs is now greater then the pressure on the outside and air is released.

Now pitcure this, when you sing, the folds are closed in such a way that, when this air is released, they are openned BY the subglotic pressure just for enough time so that a pulse of air is released and then they close again, the number of times this process repeats on a second gives the fundamental frequency. Ok? Great.

But the larynx is, before anything else, an air valve. If you let your body dictate how it will deal with air pressure, the larynx will happily assume control of it. Thus doing 2 jobs at the same time, resisting pressure and emitting sound. In the lower part of your voice, this works more or less, since the frequency is low and the pulses of air are longer, more air is released and the subglotic pressure is somewhat low. As the pitch climbs, the pulses are shortened, less air is released in each pulse and the subglotic pressure rises. In response the larynx must compress more the folds. The result is tension. The bad kind of tension, its like trying to force your hand open while attempting to close it at the same time. The more you climb the more the tension rises, until at one point it simply cant hold it anymore and the voice breaks, releasing the pressure.

Shouting helps for a while, since you can just press the folds harder and force air out. But you will get tired quickly. If you try to lower the pressure as required for a lighter emission, the pressure is too great and either the voice breaks into falsetto (with that very nice effect :P) or becomes airy (which is actually worse than simply shouting).

So you must train in order that, when you exhale, the control of air flow is done by the lower muscles, not allowing the diaphragm to simply relax and keeping the ribcage expanded. In other words, the exhale process must become active, controlling the air flow, and this is NOT THE SAME AS JUST PRESSING IT OUT.

An unstable airflow will also create tension since the larynx will either produce irregular sound or help controlling it. So the better the support works, the easier it becomes.

When support gets connected, even the lower notes becomes much easier and stable, its very noticeable, not just a subtle difference. Its also less demanding and you will see a great improvement on your resistance. It will not immediately solve your problem with passaggio, but will allow vowel modification to work.

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I was curious if you can sing through the break area in CVT neutral without air and not have throat constrictions?

If you can get this going, your likely doing it with pretty good balance (breath and folds).

I can lip roll, NG scale, M siren without breaks. Never tried neutral without air.

I'll check the CVT book.

I understand you Felipe, it's just fully understanding how to use my lower abs and keeping the chest expanded. I always feels like I'm just locking the abs. I feel the shift of my abs pulling down sometimes but I always see this as false support.

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I can lip roll, NG scale, M siren without breaks. Never tried neutral without air.

I'll check the CVT book.

I understand you Felipe, it's just fully understanding how to use my lower abs and keeping the chest expanded. I always feels like I'm just locking the abs. I feel the shift of my abs pulling down sometimes but I always see this as false support.

D.Starr: Put what Felipe said with what you have been practicing in the exercises. When you do the onsets, especially when soft, there will be very little contraction of the abs in any direction, they won't be sensed to lock, they will be felt to pull in a little, but not much. If you maintain the sense of breath suspension, that should be sufficient for the exercise for now.

I agree with Quincy's recommendation to use a 'neutral without air' mode. That is probably the kind of sound that you are getting with the onsets, I think.

Its interesting that you say that you can M siren without breaks. M is one of the semi-occluded consonants that are used for registration training over multile pitch ranges. If you can do the siren past the E4 on an M, then you are very close to having the technique to sing a siren on a vowel that will work through there as well.

So, your next exercise: Add the suspended breath onset exercise to the front end of an M siren. Use the vowel 'UH' in this fashion:

On the G in your bottom octave (G2) Onset the UH twice, just like you did it on the ah, ah, ahhhhhhhhhhh previously.

Bring your lips together to make an M, but leave the UH throat posture behind it, and do 2 more onsets with the M. Another way to think about it is an UH with your mouth closed.

Add a long M after that, and siren it smoothly up an octave, and back down, maintaining the suspension the entire time.

Diagrammed, it looks like this, with the siren represented :-):

M

M M

M M

M M

M M

UH, UH, M, M, M MMMMM

The sirened M is a consistent flow of tone, taking about 5 seconds to go up, and 5 to go down.

do 2 times on the starting note, then transpose up by 1/2 step and repeat.

During one of the transpositions, as you make the siren you may feel a point where your muscle memory wants to press more air out to keep the tone going, or to introduce abdominal rigidity. Do not do either of those. Repeat the exercise and slow down the siren way down at that point, and add just a little additional emphasis on the suspension feeling... just a very little. This is a moment of discovery of the body sensations of the small adjustments in support and registration that are needed in the transition to the upper middle voice... changes that are needed to set you up to approach the passaggio without overpressuring. Same thing if you break... just go back and slow that part of the siren down.

I do this exercise every day, quite softly, in the morning to get my voice loose, and then at the beginning of a vocalization period. I do the sirens over the intervals of the octave+5th, and the double-octave, where the complete change in sensation is quite pronounced during the siren.

Let us know how things go.

You can also use other semi-occluded consonants for this same exercise. M, NG, V, Z, and the french J (like in the word 'Je') all work as well.

Do this exercise for10 mins in the morning, and 10 in the afternoon, and I think you will be pleased with the results,

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