Snax Posted September 17, 2009 Author Share Posted September 17, 2009 Great vocals VideoHere! Really similar tone to Lou in fact. how much effort does that line require from you on a scale from 1 to 10? Do you feel any strain in your throat or is it relaxed? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 17, 2009 Author Share Posted September 17, 2009 Hello again, I just recorded myself singing that line but higher to see if you guys can tell me what mode or technique I used to do it. This will really help me out a lot i think. http://gallery.me.com/muskysnax/100036 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 videohere, That was Curbing. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Snax, That was Metal-like Neutral. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Thanks Martin. Would you mind recording yourself singing the same thing I did at the same pitch using your "Metal-like Neutral"? If I hear how you sound then I'll have a better understanding of how I should be doing it. I learned to sing by mimicking my vocal heroes but these forums are really giving me a deeper understanding of the mechanics of singing. I think I might be engaging the constrictors more than I'm supposed to. Not sure if you can see that on my video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 I will make a recording soon In regards to see if you have bad constrictions that's really not that easy just by looking at your neck. (It's a myth that muscle activity an poppin veins in the neck is always a sign of bad constrictions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 I didn't know that about the veins bulging not being a sign of constriction. How would I know if I am using my constrictors and if I do use them will my voice sound different (better) when I don't? Thanks for all the great info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Actually YOU are the only one who can tell how your voice feels. If it hurts or scratches in your throat it is wrong. Basically you can say that if it feels wrong it IS wrong. So if you feel that you have some unwanted constriction then you need to pinpoint where and when they occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 snax, thanks for the compliment. he's a "god" to me....very underrated vocalist...here's what i have learned to sing that line. you can't sing it falsetto because it will sound too lame...it's got to be mixed with a lot of support using hardly any air.... actually i sing it exhaled. you know how it goes "this time i want to be sure"...i don't inhale at all there... i stay relaxed in the throat.... i push out my abs.... and bear down (as if defficating) and i have learned to vowel modify that line cause it's full of front consonants...so i go for "ah beeeeehhhn waaaaaatang foooooor a giiiiirl laaaak youuuu...deemphasizing the "b", "w", "f" and "g" again, these guys you're talking with know much more of the technical side than i do, i just sometimes sing intuitively i guess...and i just keep trying and trying reading and studying...i love this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Thanks VideoHere, that was helpful! Lou Gramm is also a vocal God to me too as are many others with those huge, "rangey" voices. Really interesting what you say about hardly using any air to sing those parts. I think I do tend to push too much air when I'm going for it and that is what leads me down the path of constriction. You rock dude! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 oh, yeah, on a scale of one to ten... one being easy and ten tough lou gramm's stuff is a 9.5. but i say that if you want to emulate him...he's got that punch and power, he sings up and down, high and deep. the emotion and passion are very hard to duplicate. is he a technically correct singer?...i don't really know but i love the sound of his vocals. this looks pretty damm hard to me. i can do 50% of his songs in his keys the other 1/2 step down http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNt0RmK5Ewk let me now what you think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Is this me using "twang" or is this "curbing"? Sorry for all the questions guys! http://gallery.me.com/muskysnax/100061 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 ^ RE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmByAiyXeAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Thanks Matt. :cool: I've seen all his clips and have tried to parlay what he's teaching into actual singing but that's where I have trouble. The sounds he seems to get while having students vocalize don't work within the context of music. It would be so helpful if Brett and others could show us some vocal exercise and then demonstrate how it helps within a real song. Then we could see if the singer is able to implement the technique usefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 well, he's all about finding that sweetest, tiniest tone you can find and learning to lean into it...to me that makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 I do understand the philosophy but I'm still unable to sing a song using the techniques that are used to hit just one note. Once we enter melody into the equation I'm back to straining around my bridge again which is what I'm trying to overcome. I know it will happen with time and practice and I'm more than willing to put both in. This forum has been a God send for me.The ability to post a question and then have different perspectives posted on it from the talented folks here is amazing! I actually used to be PROUD that I had no vocal training and now I wish more than ever that I would have trained right from the start. I can only imagine how my voice might have turned out if I knew better how to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 snax, in my opinion hearing that file you just sent your first attempt was reinforced falsetto, the second was pure falsetto (the real airy one). the third was a mixed voice which is what gramm does that in (i would think). i'm worse than you when it comes to terminology (lol). i really think the goal is to keep the throat relaxed the chords get squeezed (properly, hopefully) the stomach has to be out. yes, hardly any air comes pased the chords. if i were to put a lit candle in front of me when i sing that phrase you won't see a flicker in that candle. with all due respect to the other singers, that happens to be tough set of notes to hit if you want it powerful and full sounding. all this worry about straining and fear about this and that i think like one of the guys said before...pain wrong...some slight soreness is inevitable when you do stuff like this. b.t.w. the part after "to make me feel alive" the "yeah waaaaaaiting" part is even tougher because you have to put a little bend in the "waiting".. funny thing about gramm...in a lot of his songs just when you think you can pull it off the s.o.b. powers his way every higher like in "juke box hero" and "heaven on our side" that's a vocal masterpiece to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 also, if you want to study other singers to hear serious chest and head voice abilites study Paul Rodgers, chris Cornell and freddie cursi (sherriff). serious power in all registers!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 Chris Cornell has a very similar sound to Dio which always blows my mind when I hear either of them waling away. Seriously powerful yet emotive voices. Both Cornell and dio are capable of some very soft touching performances when they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 18, 2009 Author Share Posted September 18, 2009 snax, in my opinion hearing that file you just sent your first attempt was reinforced falsetto, the second was pure falsetto (the real airy one). the third was a mixed voice which is what gramm does that in (i would think). i'm worse than you when it comes to terminology (lol). i really think the goal is to keep the throat relaxed the chords get squeezed (properly, hopefully) the stomach has to be out. yes, hardly any air comes pased the chords. if i were to put a lit candle in front of me when i sing that phrase you won't see a flicker in that candle. with all due respect to the other singers, that happens to be tough set of notes to hit if you want it powerful and full sounding. all this worry about straining and fear about this and that i think like one of the guys said before...pain wrong...some slight soreness is inevitable when you do stuff like this. b.t.w. the part after "to make me feel alive" the "yeah waaaaaaiting" part is even tougher because you have to put a little bend in the "waiting".. funny thing about gramm...in a lot of his songs just when you think you can pull it off the s.o.b. powers his way every higher like in "juke box hero" and "heaven on our side" that's a vocal masterpiece to me. Thanks for the feedback. Now I need to research reinforced falsetto and hear other examples so I am clear on what it sounds like outside of my own voice. As for the third example which you said was a "mixed voice". For me it felt like puling chest so I'm not sure if I AM pulling chest or I'm actually in a mixed voice but engaging the constrictors too much. Man this singing thing is tougher than people think when you are trying to disect it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentreOfTheUniverse Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 hi snax, reinforced falsetto is like the normal airy falsetto but your taking it up so high the the stretch on the cords gives better adduction and they are more able to hold a little more air back so you able to give them a bit more of a blast i would say king diamond and the bee gees are examples of reinforced falsetto. its not really a sound im into but i used to do it a lot when i was a younger metal head! in terms of your twang or curbing vid. twang is a sound/coordination quality that can be applied to all types of mode or production of voice rather than being a set vocal mode, though as far as i know a CVT or Estll person would say that some modes/productions require more twang to access the mode/production in question. there is what is called necessary twang which means you add just enough of the twang or "ping", "ring" ...etc that it gives the voice that projecting quality and assists the coordination. this type isnt overly noticeable. then there is, i think its called active twang or something which is about strongly adding it to the point where it is quite noticeable in either sound colour (such as the singer anastancia) or within the mode/production (such as the modes overdrive and edge in CVT) anyway about the vid. you are right that you can lean or press into that sound you were doing at the beginning, which would be called metal like neutral in CVT (i think )and light head voice in SLS/SS. when pressed into this becomes curbing (CVT) or strong, full head voice SLS/SS. the process and building up the coordination is very incremental (just as the guy says in the SS "when a man loves a woman" vid ) its something im still learning myself. today i managed to pull it off quite well but its still inconsistent for me below im going from light head voice (metal like neutral - have to get martin to confirm this!) to a fuller head voice (though because of where i am in my range kinda flips between the high mix/middle voice to head voice when i press into it.) i recorded it on my MP3 player and the distance of it didnt change between the modes/productions. got a little distorted with the head voice one which is about medium loud. http://www.box.net/shared/pnip09bqt2 when i get it right it requires little effort. but as i say its still inconsistent for me. when i listen to you i can tell that it wouldnt take a whole crud load of work before you can press into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snax Posted September 19, 2009 Author Share Posted September 19, 2009 Thanks for the clip Centre. I have a much better idea now about these different sounds and the terminology you guys use to define them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analog Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Very well said Centre! I think Snax is almost there, it will just take time to "balance" these things. I would guess that it will ALWAYS be a matter of balance, i.e. a lifetime will be required! Also, there is NOT a magic coordination....you WILL have to work your ass off IF you want REALLY BIG SOUNDS. If it sounds like work, it typically is..... This doesn't mean you have to CONSTRICT in the throat...but it absolutely means that there will be PHYSICAL WORK! Big sounds take big support. Obviously the better conditioned you get...the less PERCEIVED effort...but there is STILL effort...you're just stronger. Think about running a marathon....you could start off not being able to run a mile....6 months later you could finish a marathon. You most probably wouldn't have the Kenyans worried...but damn, you could actually run 26.2 miles. Now...again, back to my point about balance...here's Lou singin' one of my favorite songs, "Jukebox Hero": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOilJZbUZwY There are OTHER clips on YT (around the same time period) where he SMOKES the vocal. Just goes to show how DELICATE the balance is when we start singing "in the extreme." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin H Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Centre, Great clip. I would say that you go from Neutral to Metal-like Neutral (perhaps a light Curbing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
analog Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 Centre, yes...very nice clips. That is a GREAT place to springboard into "heavy mix." Just recorded a "When Man Loves" clip. I did two. First one, would be what I consider "balanced" mix. http://www.box.net/shared/s3yq84se63 Second one is MORE TWANG...this is how I would sing it if trying to "cut" in a live situation. http://www.box.net/shared/ota4dt7oq1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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