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Perspective and criticism


ronws

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To be fair, you physical problem is not my fault. I know you are angry about it. But don't take that frustration out on all of us.

Anything you have tried or not tried has nothing to do with me or my opinions. Because we disagree philosophically doesn't mean

I don't like you or think you suck. Honestly, please stop with the self deprication. I am not here to pity you or anyone else. Nor am I

here to seek pity(You are not the only one who has physical/medical issues). I was hoping we could learn from each other.

Anyway, I hope my point has been understood this time.

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Killer - Thanks again man, and seriously I hope you'll keep posting. Just think of this place as sort of a 'magnificent seven' operation (or 'dirty dozen' if that's more your speed), where you've got different guys to fill different roles. Some are brash but incredibly knowledgeable, some are lousy writers but really nice, etc. It takes all sorts, as they say.

Are you guys getting somewhere with that music? There's got to be a place for that music. You showed me that William Elliott Whitmore, and I thought that was pretty good but a little simplistic in some ways. But listening to your music was like an epiphany. You've got to succeed. That is some real stuff, it's valid on basically level, musically and emotionally I can think of.

As far as staying, I'm kind of having mental breakdown guys. 3 years of this insanity (pain, speechlessness, a destroyed dream) and this thread has been like. I don't know if I'm misunderstanding people or if nobody's understanding each other. Or if Felipe was giving me a hard time, thinking I could mentally take it. If I could speak, and sing, I could take it. I could take, you know, 'you were pitchy, and should have worked on that first,' but 'your tone was so scientifically unappealing you had no shot of success. Ha'

If that's what was being said, I can't sit around and keep hearing that. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong. I really needed to find that out myself.

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Killer, I haven't followed every post written in this long thread, but I didn't get the impression people were trying to put you down man, at least not later on. I will say this, the first time I listened to your clips I could really relate to the tone and emotions that were coming from you... it was almost like I felt a kinship in what you were feeling similar to what I often feel when I sing.

I didn't take it as some kind of polished version but just an example of what you were going for. If someone wants to splice several takes to get it even more polished, that is fine and their choice. I don't ever bother myself since it isn't really necessary to get good advise on how to improve. Anyway, you shouldn't feel unappreciated or slighted about your singing. In the context presented and what I was interested in hearing, I thought it was great and know there are infinite other songs you can create and give even more meaning to what you want to communicate.

You just need to take a break and chill for a while. You have your own perspective on things and it's inspiring. There is no need to get into defending any attacks or perceived attacks. Just rise above it and move on.

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To be fair, you physical problem is not my fault. I know you are angry about it. But don't take that frustration out on all of us.

Anything you have tried or not tried has nothing to do with me or my opinions. Because we disagree philosophically doesn't mean

I don't like you or think you suck. Honestly, please stop with the self deprication. I am not here to pity you or anyone else. Nor am I

here to seek pity(You are not the only one who has physical/medical issues). I was hoping we could learn from each other.

Anyway, I hope my point has been understood this time.

I can't mentally hear people telling me success was a scientific impossibility if I worked hard instead of SLS. If that is what is being said, I have to go elsewhere. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. That mentally destroys me to even think of that.

I don't care if you see that as pity. It's the truth.

When you spend 3 years of your life, trying to achieve a goal, and lose your voice due to a wrong turn. If someone implies it's scientifically impossible and the entire effort was for nothing. Even if it's not true, my heart can't take it.

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Killer, I haven't followed every post written in this long thread, but I didn't get the impression people were trying to put you down man, at least not later on. I will say this, the first time I listened to your clips I could really relate to the tone and emotions that were coming from you... it was almost like I felt a kinship in what you were feeling similar to what I often feel when I sing.

I didn't take it as some kind of polished version but just an example of what you were going for. If someone wants to splice several takes to get it even more polished, that is fine and their choice. I don't ever bother myself since it isn't really necessary to get good advise on how to improve. Anyway, you shouldn't feel unappreciated or slighted about your singing. In the context presented and what I was interested in hearing, I thought it was great and know there are infinite other songs you can create and give even more meaning to what you want to communicate.

You just need to take a break and chill for a while. You have your own perspective on things and it's inspiring. There is no need to get into defending any attacks or perceived attacks. Just rise above it and move on.

Thanks, Quincy. My mind is just broken. I don't care if people see it as pitiable to express this. It's mind destroying. I spend every day wanting to die, and I try to have positive things.

I thought this could be a positive place where I could feel like I was making a positive difference.

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I'm really flattered, dude! I wouldn't really say we're "getting anywhere" haha, but our number of facebook fans is always (very) slowly creeping up.

As for your mental health... I'm telling you dude, let today be your first lesson in not giving a ****. It IS something you learn, and it'll make you a better artist. Plus the ladies will think you're neat.

It would be so easy. Except I can't talk or sing anymore. If I could just record something or sing something I would and I would feel better. I feel so insane being on a singing forum not being able to sing. And when I hear what I heard, it's like, it eats away at me. I want to prove it wrong, but I'm physically incapable.

But as for your music, you are downright incredible. If you don't succeed, there is something more wrong with the music industry than I thought.

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I can't mentally hear people telling me success was a scientific impossibility if I worked hard instead of SLS. If that is what is being said, I have to go elsewhere. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. That mentally destroys me to even think of that.

I don't care if you see that as pity. It's the truth.

When you spend 3 years of your life, trying to achieve a goal, and lose your voice due to a wrong turn. If someone implies it's scientifically impossible and the entire effort was for nothing. Even if it's not true, my heart can't take it.

Well KillerKu, it was not me who said or implied anything like that. Again I have never said a single word about your singing, abilities, or anything of the like.

So please place your blame on those who said those things. I never have.

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Well KillerKu, it was not me who said or implied anything like that. Again I have never said a single word about your singing, abilities, or anything of the like.

So please place your blame on those who said those things. I never have.

Again, I apologize for lumping you into this. Felipe can clarify himself what he means, but I assumed when you all were agreeing with him, sorry if you were agreeing with something else he was saying, or I've misinterpreted this.

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go read my post #249. I was pretty clear there about the things I had agreed with.

And you make my point about how people assume meaning from things that are not said.

This is why I won't actually give any critiques here.

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go read my post #249. I was pretty clear there about the things I had agreed with.

And you make my point about how people assume meaning from things that are not said.

This is why I won't actually give any critiques here.

Ok, I'm sorry. Is this forgivable?

I'm not the best indication of how someone will take voice critique by the way. Most people have had voices for the last 3 years who are getting critique.

I'm probably more likely to misunderstand, since it's obviously a really emotional loss.

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Ok... Can we somehow put this behind us?

I had mental breakdown. I apologize. Sorry. My family is here now and I'm sane again. Not going insane sitting here in the silence and obsessing over my lost voice. At least I have someone to talk (type) to in real life now.

Please, help me put this behind us. I know it's not impressive that I have mental problems, related to this voice injury and I'm not always perfect. I know people don't find this impressive at all and I know it makes me not always do or say the right thing. I'm at least partially in the wrong.

I won't put my voice up for any further hearing and maybe you people can still let me try to help people when I can. And Felipe, the way you imply I'm incompetent hurts my feelings. I thought I was helping beginners here with some basic advice on relaxed singing (beginning of yawn, onsets, scales, breath support, etc), before you implied I was just going to injure them and should stop. I was trying to help people, in the most positive way I knew, but you make me feel like a criminal because I have a voice problem.

If people don't want me to do that anymore, then I won't, but I'll have a lot less constructive things to say and much less of a reason to be here. If you have a question about something I suggest, kindly explain yourself, politely, and why you might feel another way might be better, instead of attacking me personally. Thank you.

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i think i speak for everyone when i say no worries and welcome back!

Thank you. If I can go back to helping people and encouraging people that would make me feel happy.

I was very careful with light advice too and thought hard before I said anything, but if I ever am potentially wrong, I would love if you'd explain your viewpoint.

I just wanted to encourage and help beginners with the advice I never got (or got too late). I'm not trying to be voice expert. But that doesn't mean I'm useless or bad or going to injure everyone or make them sing like me.

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Look killer, I am very sorry if this all sounded like insults or anything against your art, or your ideals.

I do have my motives to say what I said, and nothing that I said was in a attempt to imply or even suggest anything other than what is specificly writen there. I have no quarry against your ideas. My problem is with what you say about being ok to "improve on your own", more specificly I am stating that after a certain point, either you go technical or you have damage, and this point is needed to achieve some quality on vocal production.

Believe you or not, my concern is not with aesthetics, but with how to achieve it. I will not repeat myself all over again, the information is there and apply to every human, not only you. My concern is about voice health, period.

You are not the first person I know who was hindered greatly due to poor information, I suffered a great deal too to recover my voice from the vortex of shit that I built around it with the help of someone who was all into this quest for identity thing, wasted 2 years of my life on the process of creating something completely useless that lacked either identity or quality and went the next 3, up to this day fighting against bad habits that die extremely hard if you practice on them, I am quite lucky that no permanent damage was done.

I now children who are used in this way by their parents, who at 13 or 14 years have nodules and other formations on the folds, who will have their voices last to 25 or with luck 30 years of age. Helped some folks that came to me and were told to just "let it all out". Etc...

I sincerely hope you recover, and hope that you are smart enough to not fall into the same trap, look for VERY competent help. It will pay of after a few years of using your voice, specially if you accomplish your goals and have a full agenda.

Good luck!;)

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Look killer, I am very sorry if this all sounded like insults or anything against your art, or your ideals.

I do have my motives to say what I said, and nothing that I said was in a attempt to imply or even suggest anything other than what is specificly writen there. I have no quarry against your ideas. My problem is with what you say about being ok to "improve on your own", more specificly I am stating that after a certain point, either you go technical or you have damage, and this point is needed to achieve some quality on vocal production.

Believe you or not, my concern is not with aesthetics, but with how to achieve it. I will not repeat myself all over again, the information is there and apply to every human, not only you. My concern is about voice health, period.

You are not the first person I know who was hindered greatly due to poor information, I suffered a great deal too to recover my voice from the vortex of shit that I built around it with the help of someone who was all into this quest for identity thing, wasted 2 years of my life on the process of creating something completely useless that lacked either identity or quality and went the next 3, up to this day fighting against bad habits that die extremely hard if you practice on them, I am quite lucky that no permanent damage was done.

I now children who are used in this way by their parents, who at 13 or 14 years have nodules and other formations on the folds, who will have their voices last to 25 or with luck 30 years of age. Helped some folks that came to me and were told to just "let it all out". Etc...

I sincerely hope you recover, and hope that you are smart enough to not fall into the same trap, look for VERY competent help. It will pay of after a few years of using your voice, specially if you accomplish your goals and have a full agenda.

Good luck!;)

Thank you, Felipe. I've kind of told beginners here from the start, that on their own, they are unlikely to master these more advanced concepts on their own safely and should get help, once they hit a wall in comfortable, intuitive singing. But I do believe comfortable (even good sounding) singing is possible without lessons, and if people have some very basic advice in how to achieve it, that's good, better than no advice, or mountains of advanced advice to choose from here and attempt in possible failure.

That was my goal to help people with to start with. I promise you that not everyone here reading will get lessons, and they have mountains of advanced information to choose from at their fingertips. I was trying to give them some very basic advice, that may not give them the most range, or powerful voice, but would help them sing comfortably and more safely.

I actually believe I do have some experience with this though am far from an expert. If you ever disagree with me, please kindly say so next time and explain why and I will try to learn from you. The way you implied I was damaging everyone's voices last time, made me feel worthless and like a criminal when I honestly feel I've helped people here 90 percent of the time.

The quest for identity, was implied through comfortable healthy singing, or with the help of an instructor who shares your goals and will help you achieve them. The only thing I was saying was bad, was implying that if someone doesn't use X technique, they automatically are bad singers. Because if someone is happily and healthily singing the sounds they are looking for, that is honestly probably what I consider the best singing and I don't think it's good to be too judgmental towards them. If those goals are commercial, and there is a way to help with this without compromising identity, that's good too.

If something is potentially dangerous to health, it's good to explain that too as best as you understand.

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Just to clarify what I meant with aesthetics and the problems with relaxed singing, consider those samples:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/HYmWfCxX/is_this_love.html

Here I forced myself to shut down the support, simply breathed in as relaxed as I could, letting my chest open and climb, as usually happens when you tell a begginer to take a deep relaxed breath. Then I was singing into the relaxed flow of air.

Its not bad. But this way too dammanding on the folds, the emission is not well ajusted, air pressure is too high to allow confortable full closure.

Now this:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/vpU4zKz2/is_this_love-001.html

Just singing it in the normal way I trainned to do. Not doing anything about support, nor about emission, nor resonance. You could say its my identity now, because thats how my voice comes out without me tampering with the process.

And this:

http://www.4shared.com/mp3/w2Xgqjne/is_this_love-002.html

This is what I define as lack of identity due to overconcern with technique. Trying to force technique into your voice for the sake of being technical and sounding like crap. I simply placed everything as forward as possible, INO, trying to USE what is defined as forward placement to sing. You may relate this remotely to what an operatic voice would be, and it could remind it remotely, but classical singers train this up to a point that their voices center around it, they dont simply place everything there when singing.

On the first sample, the compression levels are all the way up to the ceilling in order to make the vowels more homogeneous, otherwise the levels vary way too much. And they still lack it, they are not well defined. This will always translate into: ok, he sings nice, has a nice tone, but could try harder (even for ourselfs). In the moment you go for the TRY harder, the larynx pay the price without using technique. And even if you DO figure on your own, there is no way around, you will use the same basic concepts.

On the second sample, I was able to lower the compression levels, and the vowels are much more defined and are connected (legatto). And now the part I wanted you to understand from the start, Lennon, Kobain, whatever, do/did this MUCH better than I do! Its the "mojo" if you will call it so. The voice comes out strong, not in the meanning of powerfull/thunderous, but when you listen to it, your brain associates these specifc qualities as something more meanningfull, it enforces the message you are trying to convey. Doesnt matter what school you comming from, CVT, TVS, classical or your own, this is a part of what singing is.

Would you find something similar on your voice, Im pretty sure that you would, as I said you are very musical, you have very good perception and even that stage that you were before was WAY more than most can achieve on their own, I for sure couldnt.

The third sample may remind of one or another artist, to me it simply sounds like crap, and Im pretty sure anyone that hears such thing will too.

You can work your voice to sound in anyway between what is there in the first sample and the last, or even go further, but tell me, do you think its not possible to identify that its me both on the first and the second ones?

Sorry for the quality of the samples, using a crap headphone mic to do them.

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Hey Felipe, I'm listening to your samples and liking this discussion, can we segway it into a new thread so this one can rest and other people can contribute?

As is, I like your first sample's relaxed singing of the low notes ok, but as you ascend it sounds weird. The second sample, sounds pretty good, I agree. Third clip is loading strangely. Will get to it with an edit.

Wow, yes the third clip sounds borderline comical, though elements of that sound included would be good. I understand you and agree that all of these sound elements have your soundprint on them.

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