Vocal Cord Closure

[KillerKu]

Ok, this is related to something that came up here when discussing the Ee vowel in another thread. I want honest opinions, from people, on vocal cord closure.

I'll start off. From a classical perspective, too much cord closure on onset, creating a 'glottal shock' and a 'pressed phonation' is considered damaging. They use the concept of the invisible H (the perfect attack), to soften onset which may add just a bit of air to the sound. The theory is that too firm of a closure, increases the likelihood of damage and easing the onset makes for a beautiful sound.

http://www.voiceteacher.com/cordclosure.html

Next up, modern singing program philosophy. The concept is if you increase cord closure, you will enable access to higher notes, essentially reducing the break in falsetto, and creating a phonation more suited to other vocal modes (CVT calls them metallic modes)

First here's a tutorial on achieving firmer chord closure from an Australian teacher actually encouraging the use of glottal attack to create the phonation:

Now personally when I hear his speaking voice, it sounds firm, but not 'pressed' but during some of his exercises particularly with some of the fry it sounds excessive to my ears.

Lastly, here is Brett Manning, who's speaking voice is so pressed, it's actually unpleasant for me to listen to. I can't speak for sure as to how damaging this is, but some of his students have had voice problems, as has he.

So opinions now? How much is too much, how much is too little? Different singers tend to use different amounts, classical singers use less, which might explain their limited range, and less 'metallic' tones, but traditionally they seem to have less voice problems than pop singers to my knowledge. Speech Level Singing is a very pressed sound in general to the point that hearing these people speak often really annoys me.

And onto vocal modes. At what point do you lose access to metallic vocal modes as the amount of air increases? What is the best method of finding 'enough' but not 'too much' for any given vocal task.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Classical attack does not uses air on the tone. Never. And the information that classical trainning equals reduced range is not true.

Here is a video of a classicaly trainned singer and some explanation on technique too. Do you hear air or limited range?

[jonpall]

Let the lack of pain in your throat be your guide.

[KillerKu]

Felipe, That's not Bel Canto, that's Queensryche, a modern bent. People who sang traditional Bel Canto did not sing that way, just saying but I agree it's not 'breathy.'

The invisible H, or perfect attack is well known, the loss of the glottal attack occurs, in some manner, and there is a reduction in a pressed phonation, although there were times where in your song there he sounded pretty squeezed to me.

Let the lack of pain in your throat be your guide.

I wish I had that guide I could still use for my voice, but it sounds like a good one. I have a feeling the 'SLS exercises' combined ignorantly with my naturally breathier timbre may have been a contribution to my injury. I always had a habit of speaking breathy since my very young childhood. Always spoke in CVT neutral and then I think I modified to something less breathy, but not actually metallic.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Felipe, That's not Bel Canto, that's Queensryche, a modern bent. People who sang traditional Bel Canto did not sing that way, just saying.

The invisible H, or reduced attack is well known, the loss of the glottal attack occurs, in some manner, and there is a reduction in a pressed phonation.

Oh boy...

He is classicaly trainned and uses classical attack.

I am classicaly trainned and I use classical attack

This guy is classicaly trainned, and used classical attack:

If anyone of those lacks range, its me, due to incompetence. Do you think any lack metal? Do you hear air?

The invisible H has its name due to it NOT APPEARING. Its simply coordination between the onset and the engagement of support muscles and breath release. We learn to coordinate both so that in the exact second we finish to inhale, exhalation begins, support engages and the onset closes just enough to produce a firm tone with no breathiness whatsoever. A classical singer with a breathy tone would have a very short carreer.

And what is really bizarre is that this information is on the page you linked on this topic.

[KillerKu]

He is classicaly trainned and uses classical attack.

I am classicaly trainned and I use classical attack

This guy is classicaly trainned, and used classical attack:

If anyone of those lacks range, its me, due to incompetence. Do you think any lack metal? Do you hear air?

I do hear what sounds like more airflow per note, almost like invisible H if I'm being honest. Maybe I'm wrong, but he sounds less 'pressed.' Not breathy, but less pressed? Maybe my ears aren't that good.

Like if he spoke with that voice? Would he sound like Brett Manning? Or would his voice have a bit less of a firm closure and almost a very subtle air cushion?

[Felipe Carvalho]

I do hear what sounds like more air, almost like invisible H if I'm being honest. Maybe I'm wrong, but he sounds less 'pressed.' Not breathy, but less pressed? Could be wrong. Maybe my ears aren't that good.

One way that this kind of attack is described to us is as an "ajusted" emission.

Its just enough pressure to produce a firm tone, with no air. Too tight and tension shows up in the larynx, too loose and the tone becomes breathy, also causing tension on the larynx. Balance is the key.

[D.Starr]

Jump on over to my thread about failing at singing, Steven posted some onset exercises, one mentions the silent H.

[KillerKu]

One way that this kind of attack is described to us is as an "ajusted" emission.

Its just enough pressure to produce a firm tone, with no air. Too tight and tension shows up in the larynx, too loose and the tone becomes breathy, also causing tension on the larynx. Balance is the key.

Ok, I got ya. You would agree Brett Manning is pretty pressed though, right?

What would you advise to pop singers who use breathy sounds that maintain a bit of body? I was listening to this earlier today, and noticed his verses, are kind of almost breathy... Curbing, or 'something.' Breath and body. What people would imply might be damaging.

It sounds good, but is this safer on lower notes does anyone know?

And for CVT users, metal like neutral. If you twang on top of breathy voice. What does that do?

[Felipe Carvalho]

Like if he spoke with that voice? Would he sound like Brett Manning? Or would his voice have a bit less of a firm closure and almost a very subtle air cushion?

Imagine a voice that is firm, no air, but the attack is rounded. Its pretty much that. There are some videos of pavarotti speaking on masterclasses. His voice is kinda like that. Soft onset, but firm. The compression of the folds rise together with tone and is followed by the breath support. It is not a constant value. Lower tones, less compression, more air volume. Higher tones, more compression, less air volume.

By air volume, I mean air supplied ok? On the tone there is never sound of air.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Ok, I got ya. You would agree Brett Manning is pretty pressed though, right?

What would you advise to pop singers who use breathy sounds that maintain a bit of body? I was listening to this earlier today, and noticed his verses, are kind of almost breathy... Curbing, or 'something.' Breath and body. What people would imply might be damaging.

It sounds good, but is this safer on lower notes does anyone know?

And for CVT users, metal like neutral. If you twang on top of breathy voice. What does that do?

Brett Manning... I dont think that guy should be refernce for anything at all. Did you see a video that was on youtube before called "brett manning skinning a cat"? Pretty much describes his knowledge on singing. His videos telling people to adduct or zip or gug or whatever always looked like butchery to me.

About breathy tone. Ill tell you this. If your voice is centered around a healthy vocal production, you can use it pretty safely as a resource to add to the performance. But doing it everytime, leads to damage. Look at what happened to John Mayer for an instance. Dunno about breathy and body, not sure I follow.

[KillerKu]

Brett Manning... I dont think that guy should be refernce for anything at all. Did you see a video that was on youtube before called "brett manning skinning a cat"? Pretty much describes his knowledge on singing. His videos telling people to adduct or zip or gug or whatever always looked like butchery to me.

About breathy tone. Ill tell you this. If your voice is centered around a healthy vocal production, you can use it pretty safely as a resource to add to the performance. But doing it everytime, leads to damage. Look at what happened to John Mayer for an instance. Dunno about breathy and body, not sure I follow.

I was not referencing Manning, positively. Mayer was extremely breathy. I mean, that comes in various amounts.

Ok, for the next question, for people that like the sound of various amounts of air in the tone. Is there a good exercise for controlling the amount of air on the fly in a precise and healthy way? I don't trust my voice to experiment with, but if there is a method for going basically from no air, to increasing amounts of air, back to no air, this would be very useful for pop singers.

Oh and what I meant by body, is it sounded like he established some kind of 'hold, or pot smoker's breath, or curbing, or moan,' while still maintaining breath in his timbre. I'm not sure what that is called in classical music, but it's very common in popular music. It's cricoid activity, and is involved in crying. I've heard you're not supposed to use air with this so if this is what he was doing, that would be strange. It could be I hear it wrong.

[Felipe Carvalho]

I was not referencing Manning, positively. Mayer was extremely breathy. I mean, that comes in various amounts.

Ok, for the next question, for people that like the sound of various amounts of air in the tone. Is there a good exercise for controlling the amount of air on the fly in a precise and healthy way? I don't trust my voice, but if there is a method for going basically from no air, to increasing amounts of air, back to no air.

Oh and what I meant by body, is it sounded like he established a 'hold, or pot smoker's breath, or curbing, or moan,' while still maintaining breath in his timbre. I'm not sure what that is called in classical music if it is used in classical music, but it's very common in popular music. It's cricoid activity, and is involved in crying. I've heard you're not supposed to use air with this.

No, there is no formal trainning to achieve this. Its quite easy though, add H before a vowel and the air is there, the ammount is up to you. Practicing this serves no purpose.

I believe what you mean is head voice... It really hurts to attempt it. The compression is way too much to allow this kind of freedom. You can use full dynamic range. But falsetto is there if you really want air, a better choice. Not healthy, but better.

[KillerKu]

No, there is no formal trainning to achieve this. Its quite easy though, add H before a vowel and the air is there, the ammount is up to you. Practicing this serves no purpose.

I believe what you mean is head voice... It really hurts to attempt it. The compression is way too much to allow this kind of freedom. You can use full dynamic range. But falsetto is there if you really want air, a better choice. Not healthy, but better.

I agree about the compression being excessive, I just can't place that sound he made there. The H thing, I'm not sure, as people get into habits when it comes to precise amount of closure that often either presses or leaks. It's part of people's 'voice identity.'

Head voice has so many meanings as does falsetto. I get confused. I tend to think in CVT terms because they are more specific. Do you think you could translate those terms into classical lexicon? This might help me understand better. This is the best I can do

Neutral with air = Breathy Falsetto/Breathy Voice

Neutral without air = Breathless Falsetto/Round Voice

Metal Like Neutral = Twanged Falsetto/Twanged Round Voice

Curbing = Cried falsetto/Cried Voice (favors ih and uh)

Overdrive = Shout and most Metallic speaking voice (favors eh and oh)

Edge = Hyper twanged screamish full bodied sound (favors er)

Are there words for these in the current classical environment? Is there an awareness of vocal modes (vowels favoring voice qualities, metallic voices requiring no added air, etc) I'm wondering if there is a better way we can communicate on this forum rather than continually confusing each other. If we could just have a lingo that worked for the majority of members, and encompassed the maximum amount of voice ground with minimal confusion that would help a lot.

[Felipe Carvalho]

I agree about the compression being excessive, I just can't place that sound he made there. The H thing, I'm not sure, as people get into habits when it comes to precise amount of closure that often either presses or leaks. It's part of people's 'voice identity.'

Head voice has so many meanings as does falsetto. I get confused. I tend to think in CVT terms because they are more specific. Do you think you could translate those terms into classical lexicon? This might help me understand better. This is the best I can do

Neutral with air = Breathy Falsetto/Breathy Voice

Neutral without air = Breathless Falsetto/Round Voice

Metal Like Neutral = Twanged Falsetto/Twanged Round Voice

Curbing = Cried falsetto/Cried Voice (favors ih and uh)

Overdrive = Shout and most Metallic speaking voice (favors eh and oh)

Edge = Hyper twanged screamish full bodied sound (favors er)

Are there words for these in the current classical environment? Is there an awareness of vocal modes (vowels favoring voice qualities, metallic voices requiring no added air, etc) I'm wondering if there is a better way we can communicate on this forum rather than continually confusing each other. If we could just have a lingo that worked for the majority of members, and encompassed the maximum amount of voice ground with minimal confusion that would help a lot.

Nope, not that Im aware of.

[KillerKu]

Nope, not that Im aware of.

That's interesting. You see people have done some research on there being quite a few ways of using the voice seemingly relatively healthily now like under vocal cord camera and EMG measuring muscle activations that don't always match classical tradition?

Jo Estill was really the first to start this shift in voice research, but what was traditionally defined as unhealthy technique is not so clear cut now.

You look at the voice from the classical perspective, and I think your input is very valuable here and I'd like to continue to learn from you. I know we had our little back and forth, earlier, but I think your input is valuable, just try to keep an open mind, as there are numerous non traditional classical sounds that have been deemed relatively healthy.

My voice isn't healthy, but it's not really my choice as something is actually injured/malfunctioning to the best of my knowledge. But with the things I know now, people don't have to sing classically trained to have a healthy voice. If I could transplant my current knowledge and understanding prior to my injury, I'd be a lot safer, especially if I was looking into any of these voice programs.

[Ronron]

And for CVT users, metal like neutral. If you twang on top of breathy voice. What does that do?

It usually removes the air, and can serve as a close enough headvoice, which would put it into neutral without air or metal like neutral. Some people can achieve twang on top of breathy voice and get a twanged breathy voice though.

And as far as CVT and classical terms equivalences, I think it's mostly accepted that

" Chest voice " = Overdrive

" Mixed voice " = Curbing

" Head voice " = Metal like neutral

I do remember reading somewhere in the book that Tenor high C is sometimes in Edge, but I'm not sure about this :)

[jonpall]

Good post, Ronron.

[KillerKu]

Ok, Ronron, that does make sense. Appreciate it!

[stew503]

Killer,

In addition to Ronron's post and to add - in a "way", yes there is classical terminology for "some" of this (or terminology floating around them).

RonRon refers to chest -

So (let's get classical) how about a "closed voice" where a defined timbre should remain throughout the voice regardless of range (is this a desirable goal ? and does CVT term this as "overdrive" ?) - (insert relevant terminology here). There is a term for the open voice too (insert term here) and ... vowel mods (yes there is a word for that too). AHHHH, but if subject 1 has "problem 1" then the need to remove undesirable timbre "x" by method "y"

Is this "darker" tone a required state ... Well in Nordic schools - it may be, but not elsewhere, but does the music require it too ?.

NOT EVER will a coach say, "Today we are going to work a little in Voce chiusa, I would like you to feel these sensations throughout your range by using Voce di petto exercises and we'll stick in some aggiustamento in there (for covering). Shoud I hear undesirable hyper or hypofunctionality, forced breathiness or pressed phonation we'll adopt toolkit action 1 through 12 to resolve"

They may say, "Today - I've got some arpeggio exercises that'll give these low/deep sensations throughout your range, we'll watch those vowels on the way. Lets start by something simple ... so, to start I would like you to be Santa - give me a hearty HO HO HO".

The programs EVT, CVT, TVS allow common terminology to be used across students that can be easily understood. So in a way the "classical" way has terminology - they are not everyday terms used by singers.

in addition to the post below, "Perhaps you singers with classical educations can continue educate us on the forum slowly and steadily" ... That happens already ... , but NOT 'only' from classical way this ... , but also from CVT that, TVS that, SLS this, Vendera that

... It's for that collection of experience that makes this a valuable collection of information. It does allow some differing techniques to cross and that information is either taken on board and learning had, or dismissed.

There are plenty whom can vouch for that certainly from Steven Frasers posts .. I stated about D.Stars post where there is invaluable help there. I also refer to the Formant and Harmonic post too.

The clip posting arena is extremely valuable for some, whilst you "may" be against posting something, the realisation of when you get constructive comments on it - certainly adds to learning.

Another Example is Bob ... Now he is working with Frissell, he'll be hearing about all those lovely head tones and exercises for having those lower in his range. Whether has heard the relevant terminology is up to his coach or does coach use terminology that a student recognises. (i.e. Always use terminology relevant to the student (Age, experience ... etc)). Not only that, but he is also sharing the experience.

[KillerKu]

Ok, Stew, I appreciate the educated response. Perhaps you singers with classical educations can continue educate us on the forum slowly and steadily from your standpoint. I understand most of those terms are not english ones, or in every day use, but perhaps it would help us reach understanding.

I'd just appreciate if we tried to stay respectful without a perspective of 'there is only one way to sing.' People have a lot of different styles of voice usage, and in the past I've seen a kind of a totalitarianism in all schools of singing thought where I've went (even SLS, when I trust them the least).

I honestly believe there are a lot of ways to do it!

[VideoHere]

i have found when you support really well and correctly, expanded lower core, dynamic control and opposition to the rising diaphragm all your tension gets diverted to the lower core leaving you relaxed in the muscles you need to have relaxed...neck, swallowing, throat...

then you achieve and feel a sense of freedom and adjustability to the vocal folds. you can glue them shut (not slam them shut, but glue them shut), or add a little slack, all very much possible. you don't have the vocal folds unduly assited by any other muscles than the ones they need to stretch and contract.

it's so important to get to a point where the throat and all the muscles surrounding it become as passive as possible.

because quite simply you then have a power source that sends up air to the folds and the folds regulate the pitch unemcumbered by extraneous tension.

[ronws]

Let me throw a monkey wrench in the works, here. Not defending Killer, not contradicting Felipe. Just relaying words from Geoff Tate, himself, as read in the book by Bill Martin, who conducted interviews with a number of big singers, including Geoff Tate.

Tate did not train classically. He sang in church choir while he was in high school. And than sang in some rock bands but was losing his wind and his voice after a few songs. He took 6 (as in six) lessons with David Kyle. Once a week for six weeks. That was all he could afford on his macaroni & cheese budget. But the lessons were well taught. And he practiced those basics. Even today, he does not think C5 with rasp and mode and whatever else. He feels what the audience is feeling and sings that. His primary concern in warming up is breathing from the bottom of his gut and finding his resonance. He warms the high range in the morning. Mid range after lunch. Low end, about 1 hour or so before show time, none of it heavy or full-on, marking his range more than blasting through it.

If he was trained classically and operatically, he would likely not have sung so high, as he is really a baritone who has developed a counter-tenor, so to speak. Anyone is welcome to read "Pro Secrets of Heavy Rock Singers."

[Felipe Carvalho]

Yes, Ive read the book, and most of what he describes is exactly what is achieved in classical trainning. There are no rules on the classical school that does not allow a Baritone to have more range, the rules are all about tessitura. And by all means, a singer should just sing, and not be concerned with technique while doing so. Technique is there to be trainned uppon and be assimilated. If you have to think about it during a song, more trainning is due.

All that is said in the classical school is that, for the sake of maintainning the character as the author intends, there is this area of his voice where a baritone must sing to retain those qualities (and be able to be heard). Outside the classical realm, those rules are only usefull to help a better understanding of your own voice, keeping around the tessitura is nice to maintain things more confortable, but it is possible to go higher or lower.

For example, on pop music, a bass can connect his falsetto with the modal voice and it will not make a difference.

The trainning is what matters, his discipline and the orientation he received.

[ronws]

I agree that some of the concepts that Tate may have learned from Kyle might have had origins in classical training. But, Tate did not train as a classical singer. I study classical technique but that does not mean that I have trained as a classical singer, though I have sometimes been accused of having an operatic voice.

But if it really is important to you, Felipe, you go ahead and be "more right," or whatever. I don't much skin in this game. I ain't worried about my rep or others' estimation of my expertise or knowledge. I'm just a barely house-broken dog on the highway to Hell.

:D