Jump to content

When you can't sing.


rofleren

Recommended Posts

Wow.. All I can say is, its taken 3 pages of posts, and this topic is Still revolving around the same point!

Killer - Just one question, why would the identity of a singer die just because he/she is trained or aware of how to produce the sound in a way that is not detrimental to the voice?

Is it not possible to have both?

Also, one of the reasons why technique plays such an important role, is to be able to repeat the same performance quality night after night, for years on end.

Roger Daltry and Robert Plant f.ex. have lost their ability to belt out the same notes they could back in the day, and they lost that pretty long back! Now, they are two of my favorite singers, but that doesn't change the fact that their voices would've definitely survived had they been aware of proper technique. It would have still let them add their quirks to each song, their character / soul, without damaging anything.

For a lot of their tracks, the live versions were off in a number of ways. And no amount of loving their bands can change that fact!

Neil Young doesn't sing in a way detrimental to voice. His voice is just fine, because he didn't take lessons from 3 octave gurus and sang what was comfortable for him.

He found a technique that was working for him, and polished it. I was on my way to doing this too, before I took 3 octave guru bullshit from know it all **hats.

I have no problem with some basic health advice at achieving and maintaining a desired vocal style healthily, but that's where it ends. Everything else is taste, and you guys want this bland pitch perfect 3 octave Celine Dion crap that makes my skin crawl. I love rock and roll. Big difference.

It's supposed to be rough, singers are supposed to be human beings with strengths and weaknesses, the music is supposed to be rugged and less precise. They are supposed to have identities and each offer something unique without some kind of robotic, scientific theoretical perfection. The flaws and reckless abandon are just as much part of the music as anything else. I don't like elevator music. I don't like autotune, I don't like pampered perfection or mechanical obsession with some theoretical ideal. I like, gritty, loose rock and roll/soul and there is nothing wrong with this.

I believe there are a lot of people like myself who aren't getting their fill because know it all jerkwards keep trying to destroy this artform. They already destroyed my voice with lies, and are out for more blood. They want every note perfect, every voice tuned to Celine Dion perfection, **** these people.

I'm not going to keep quiet while these people not only destroyed my voice, but want to destroy all of the music I've ever loved with their theoretically perfect, homogenized trash. I'll speak my mind, and you better damned well leave Neil Young alone. I like the wobble in his voice, I like that he is reckless and rebellious. I like his mistakes and I deserve to have singers like this for myself that I can actually enjoy without you people either damaging them or polishing them until I can no longer enjoy them. You can have Celine Dion, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. She chose what she chose as an artist and I don't have to like it. I'm proud of her for following her art to it's fruition, but I'd much rather listen to Neil Young.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 226
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I know you love me like a brother. I just wish you read more of my words, at times. Like, in this thread, where I said I should work more on pitch accuracy than worrying about range. Really, I did say that, in this very thread.

Sun, really? I might have bad low-note technique? You may be right. Then again, I am simply not and have never been a baritone. In fact, my voice never cracked. During my teen years, I sounded like a woman, at least on the phone, which led to some comical phone conversations that would end with the other party saying "Yes, Ma'am." I would have to politely inform them that I am a boy. Apologies, no worries, keep on keeping on....

Perhaps you haven't met a man who can't get down to E2 or F2, or even G2. We do exist. Either that, or I don't exist. And for a guy who doesn't exist, I can smoke a mean brisket, let me tell ya .... Right now, I am roasting monster chicken breasts with baby carrots, chopped red potatos, onion, garlic, cajun seasoning from Pat's of Henderson restaurant that we got when visiting there in Lake Charles, Louisiana. Not bad for a mythical beast such as myself, eh?

Hehe that sounds delish!

I've seen some singers been able to get maybe one or two semi-tones extra with a bit of twang and raised soft palate so I thought it might help :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Killer -

Dude, really, take a deep breath. I'm not calling you out for a 'No Holds Barred' Cage Match with Hulk Hogan.. I just asked you a question.

Now, please go back up to my post and read the two examples I gave.. Last I checked, they said Roger Daltry and Robert Plant. I'm not quite sure how you equated that to Celine Dion, but hats off to you! Also, I'm not quite sure how that isn't Rock n Roll..

At no point is ANYONE in this forum saying that stuff needs to sound like elevator music, so I would request you not to insult the intelligence of everyone else who posts over here.. People come here to discuss things and learn.. not have standoffs with each other (Unless I've really missed the point over the last year or so).

Please realize that you're only talking about singers who didn't take training. Some of them.. SOME.. have managed to keep their voices fine over the years, and most haven't. This is due to reasons that neither you nor I will ever know for sure.

However, there IS a proven method of being able to develop the voice and sing night after night for years on end, just like there is a way to maintain any other musical instrument, or car, or anything else that one may value. It is up to you (or me, or anyone else) to either embrace that for the right reasons, or reject it for the right reasons. Now 'right' may be a subjective word but here's how I see it - You had a bad experience with a coach / program. Fair enough, point accepted. Its a bitch. I agree. That does NOT mean that every program out there, every coach out there, and every singer out there who has had vocal training is not worth listening to. All it means is that you got a bad deal. (I really am sorry for making it sound rude.. that is not my intention, please, try to understand the issue here.. its not personal at all).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with bringing your own character to a song, while singing it in a way that doesn't harm your voice (give you a hoarse throat, hurt etc). In fact, that is what MOST of us strive towards.. Nobody wants to sound exactly like anyone else, nor does anyone else want a voice that isnt unique in some way. We're singers, not idiots. You seem to think that just because people train their voices, they end up sounding 'similar' and like Celine Dion with a 3 octave range.. Really?? Come on buddy, you know better than that.

And no, I'm not going to say anything about Neil Young.. I love his music.. but that has nothing to do with what we're discussing here.

Make a logical argument, and we'll talk this out.. Getting agitated isn't going to help you or me. Again, this post is about the issue, nothing personal against you.

Cheers, and hope this helps :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a logical argument.

1. I think pitchiness can be good. It's why autotune sucks. Things that are totally in tune are bland and boring.

2. Lack of over training or singing without scientific voice optimization can be good. It's why people find unique voices like Neil Young and why their music is less 'polished.' People earn to work within limitations.

3. Over training sometimes (or often) results in bland or boring, or calculated music, IMO. Celine Dion.

4. Health advice is fine. But 'unless you can sing X amount of notes full voice in perfect pitch with perfect bridge, your voice is unhealthy and you are unprofessional' is just passive aggressive bullshit and I'm sick of reading it. It's very sick minded and causes voice damage to people like myself. STOP wrecking people's voices with fake health or career advice.

I know exactly what a healthy voice feels like. I know exactly what an unhealthy voice feels like. I do know the one with less notes was a lot better off and I'd give pretty much anything to get it back. The vast majority of singers with healthy voices did not have 3 octave ranges or perfect bridges and many who did have strong bridges and large ranges got injured, go figure.

Stop equating range with health or professionalism. There are plenty of people throughout history with completely healthy voices without much range. It's much healthier to stay in a comfortable range than it is to try to have this magical voice you people talk about.

Bob is sitting here trying to give more people polyps, where if people don't try to have every note physically possible for the voice with maximum power and work within reasonable limits without intentionally tampering with the mechanism, they often do just fine. People get damaged by pushing too much, using no breath support, using too breathy a tone for the power of the note/range, by involving too much cord closure, by involving weird muscles into the voice that they shouldn't be, or by doing really weird 'exercises' like gugs or tongue stretches. By consciously trying to alter their CT or TA in ignorance. Why the hell are people being told unless they have some ideal range perfection they aren't competent singers? So they can push for more notes and actually get injured? Good job guys.

Plenty of people sing just fine without all of this abuse. If they want to push beyond their comfortable limits, go get lessons to learn a more efficient technique. If your comfortable limits are enough to succeed with, then get checked out for health reasons anyway, if not for 'the perfect' ™ technique. But don't let some ignorant douchebag tell you your voice is unhealthy unless you have X amount of notes and X technique. That's exactly what that douchebag did to me and injured my voice for life. Honestly, you people are likely doing way more damage to voices daily with this daily **** measuring contest of vocal range, than the vast majority of people are doing singing on their own happily in their comfortable ranges. Some of which are likely better singers than you are, both professionally and artistically, range be damned.

If this is how this place is going to be, then I will say my piece and I don't want a part in this **** measuring contest. I don't care how long yours is, but I think the way people try to get everyone to stretch their's to 'scientifically maximum' length is perverted, unhealthy and damaging. Psychologically and physically. I get fed up with all of this comparing 'professional' size.

Keep your insecurities about your size to yourself. This does not help people in a healthy way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hahahaha.. dude, where in my post have I mentioned that you need a 3 octave range? YOU mentioned it, not me. Range is a personal thing - depending on what you want to sing, you can work on it if you want. Having said that, most singers are generally more comfortable expanding the range and not requiring all of it in their singing, so that the high notes in a song don't "feel" tough to hit. That the basic premise. Just because a song 'sounds' emotional and heart felt and 'high', it doesnt mean that the singer needs to put himself through pain / discomfort to achieve that. The same emotions can be conveyed in a safer manner. That's why people spend a lot of time and money on vocal training.

Anyway, I don't really have anything to prove. You clearly are on a warpath, blaming the world for what happened to you.

Hope you get better, that is all I can say.

As for Bob, he's got a much deeper understanding of how the voice works than you give him credit for. Try having a chat with him sometime with an open mind and maybe you'll learn something.

Nobody out here is giving anyone a practice regime dealing with X notes or X range. This is a FORUM.. Chances are, once you come to a forum you will see people having discussions.. which is why Robert started this in the first place.

Like I said, don't blame the world's singers and coaches and programs for what happened to you. If you have an issue, take it up with the coach who put you through a bad regime.

Cheers

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also - you mention 'over training'.. when did this conversation suddenly turn to over training??

Over training in any form - be it for sports or singing or anything else, can and usually will be detrimental.. that's a stupid reason. Its like saying I want to run the 100m dash in the Olympics, next to Usain Bolt, but I don't want a coach and I don't want to train for it, because people hurt their hamstrings while sprinting.

There is a way to do it properly. Open yourself up to it, if you do want to learn. Otherwise keep at it, you seem to be doing just fine as is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If a note is painful, or uncomfortable, either do it differently or don't do it at all. Seems pretty simple to me. If something isn't coming naturally, and you really want it, get lessons.

"Don't do it at all" should be a valid option, probably 90 percent of my favorite singers explored this option successfully. This 'unless you have it then you suck' is what I take issues with.

The over training bit was about becoming overly clinical in precision or 'perfection.' That's not everyone's goal. Some people don't want precision in arts. It's like the difference between:

I was aiming for the former. More of a rough, emotional 'experience' than a scientific reproduction of a concept in clinical detail. Having an emotional connection to the voice that was rougher, or rugged, like that painting was what I wanted for my art. I wanted 'good enough' but also flawed, that's how I feel about rock and roll and a lot of my favorite singers. They are like the first painting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok.. If thats been your experience then fine..

Sure, there's always the option of not doing it.. but thats why we're all here on this forum, to learn HOW to do things we couldn't do earlier.. and share our learning with the others.. To discuss how exercises have helped or not.. If coaches have helped or not..

The idea is to find a solution, for most of us. Maybe therein lies the difference in outlook?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok.. If thats been your experience then fine..

Sure, there's always the option of not doing it.. but thats why we're all here on this forum, to learn HOW to do things we couldn't do earlier.. and share our learning with the others.. To discuss how exercises have helped or not.. If coaches have helped or not..

The idea is to find a solution, for most of us. Maybe therein lies the difference in outlook?

This is fine and I support this, but the bashing of people is what I don't like. This 'you are unprofessional, unhealthy, have no technique, and/or suck unless you can do X' whatever X is supposed to be (range, subjective amount of pitch usage, curbing, E5 head voice, etc), is used in a passive aggressive way, IMO. It really irritates me and is the kind of thing that destroyed my voice when SLS said the same thing, as it was the health accusation that scared me most and it's a lie.

Where as if someone actually helped me sing in my own style, I would have probably been fine, maybe even successful. I probably wouldn't have hit an E5 full voice sounding or maybe I'd never use a perfect bridge into turbo head voice, I don't think I needed that to express myself or succeed as an artist anymore than James Hetfield does or John Lennon did. It was never part of the plan.

I wanted my voice to be more of a rough, emotional interpretation of sound, like that Van Gogh is with painting. A big part of getting this right, would be not being overly clinical or precise and having some element of flawed recklessness that added to the interpretation. I wanted to translate strengths and weaknesses, into the sound canvas, rather than train clinically and try to create some kind of precision piece intellectually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was aiming for the former. More of a rough, emotional 'experience' than a scientific reproduction of a concept in clinical detail. Having an emotional connection to the voice that was rougher, or rugged, like that painting was what I wanted for my art. I wanted 'good enough' but also flawed, that's how I feel about rock and roll and a lot of my favorite singers. They are like the first painting.

I'm a rock singer, first and foremost. I want my voice to sound rough and emotional. In order to do that safely, I need good technique.

But I want some of the people in the audience to THINK that I'm being all emotion and no technique. Some would think "He's just screaming (on pitch). That's not good technique". Others would (hopefully) think "Man! His screaming/singing is awesome! I can really related to the emotions he pours out". But the reality is that it takes good technique to sing in the style me, Bob and many others here (most of us?) are trying to improve on, especially if you want to be able to talk the next day and not loose your voice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a rock singer, first and foremost. I want my voice to sound rough and emotional. In order to do that safely, I need good technique.

But I want some of the people in the audience to THINK that I'm being all emotion and no technique. Some would think "He's just screaming (on pitch). That's not good technique". Others would (hopefully) think "Man! His screaming/singing is awesome! I can really related to the emotions he pours out". But the reality is that it takes good technique to sing in the style me, Bob and many others here (most of us?) are trying to improve on, especially if you want to be able to talk the next day and not loose your voice.

I understand this, but that's not the only way to sing, successfully. I wanted to sing in a truly emotional style which does involve less range, but I was actually safe there.

I honestly only ever, I mean ever went hoarse if I did distortion wrong or messed with creaky voice. Even when I'd strain and halfway miss an A4 (my top full voice note), I mean, it was relatively ok and I never had problems.

This song was an example, where I strained a little on an A4:

http://soundcloud.com/killerku/vacantwonder

But that didn't hurt me at all. Not like gugs, creak scales, and tongue stretches. If I could have polished those top notes along with the rest of my voice a bit, I would have been happy, with the emotional painting canvas style music I was making, cause it was really quite functional and working well until there was a wrench thrown in there.

I didn't want to fool audiences, I wanted to do it for real and it's very possible, cause I know it is, I was damned close. If I could get my voice right back to where it was on that song, and just work from there at lightening the top two notes and gaining a bit more pitch control on the emotion to voice connection, I would be so happy. That's all I ever wanted. So I could write and record my songs like I wanted to and get them polished enough to play them live.

If you do it right, that kind of singing is actually way safer than doing the other way wrong. I would have really struggled with the A#4. Maybe it would never come full voice, but I did have a lot of falsetto above. I'd honestly advise people be very careful what they mess with and my direct experience with singing very comfortably and healthily prior to all of this 3 octave 'the perfect bridge' mumbo jumbo is partly why all of this badgering about range and health really gets under my skin, as I honestly feel it's BS.

People are a lot healthier and safer doing what they can currently do comfortably than trying to switch to whatever super range technique is supposedly healthier in ignorance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you do it right, that kind of singing is actually way safer than doing the other way wrong. I would have really struggled with the A#4. Maybe it would never come full voice, but I did have a lot of falsetto above. I'd honestly advise people be very careful what they mess with and my direct experience with singing very comfortably and healthily prior to all of this 3 octave 'the perfect bridge' mumbo jumbo is partly why all of this badgering about range and health really gets under my skin, as I honestly feel it's BS.

People are a lot healthier and safer doing what they can currently do comfortably than trying to switch to whatever super range technique is supposedly healthier in ignorance.

Killer - If you were having trouble with A#4 then you were suffering the exact issues that most of us (excluding the lucky ones like ron) had or have. You were pushing too much, weren't using shades of vowels appropriate for that part of your range, and didn't know how to thin the folds. If you un-learned some bad habits and learned how to modify vowels away from spoken vowels you definitely would have a voice now. Using spoken vowels is perfect for your lower range, but UN-NATURAL up at A#4. Most people have this same issue and want to learn how to overcome it. Truth is we all have the natural ability to sing this way. For example, crying and yawning puts the throat in this position. But we learned how to speak and that's where we get stuck. It is really hard to sing a vowel in a different way from speech when we've spent our whole lives speaking vowels a certain way. Guys like McCartney and Lennon knew how to do this. Either they were lucky (like ron) or they learned good singing techniques along the way - I'm not sure. Sting does it right also. In fact a lot of singers from the UK seem to have great upper ranges. Either they had training (like Sting) or that kind of singing is more in their upbringing than in the US where I'm from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[Killer - If you were having trouble with A#4 then you were suffering the exact issues that most of us (excluding the lucky ones like ron) had or have. You were pushing too much, weren't using shades of vowels appropriate for that part of your range, and didn't know how to thin the folds. If you un-learned some bad habits and learned how to modify vowels away from spoken vowels you definitely would have a voice now. Using spoken vowels is perfect for your lower range, but UN-NATURAL up at A#4. Most people have this same issue and want to learn how to overcome it. Truth is we all have the natural ability to sing this way. For example, crying and yawning puts the throat in this position. But we learned how to speak and that's where we get stuck. It is really hard to sing a vowel in a different way from speech when we've spent our whole lives speaking vowels a certain way. Guys like McCartney and Lennon knew how to do this. Either they were lucky (like ron) or they learned good singing techniques along the way - I'm not sure. Sting does it right also. In fact a lot of singers from the UK seem to have great upper ranges. Either they had training (like Sting) or that kind of singing is more in their upbringing than in the US where I'm from.

Well, if I didn't gug scale, didn't tongue stretch, didn't fry scale, it would have been a possibility to tweak some stuff there with my current voice knowledge, sure.

Those might have worked. It's obviously too late for me to know now and I would have much preferred to just not bother with that note unless I had lessons and just sang in comfortable range. I'd still have a voice that way too and would have gotten to write hundreds of songs by now.

But I had no way of knowing what was credible and what was not and I still don't have a way to test this since everything I do with my voice hurts (including hitting A#4 in what seems to be curbing) this, so well... I'd advise people get lessons when they exceed their comfortable limit of voice range, if they want more. Maybe getting the information from a book (the right one) will work, or maybe you'll injure yourself. If you get a knowledgeable teacher, or stay within your comfortable range, then that's the safest bet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And then we are back to the same stuff from before.

Technique is needed to protect your voice if you are going to live from it. Maybe you can manage to do without it for a while? On a FEW cases yes, if can manage to come up with quality somehow, but even in those cases, the risks are there, as so many pop stars showed us: Chris Cornell, Adele, John Mayer, Hetfield, Klaus Meine all had problems. And all had to do therapy and use at least some technique afterwards.

Also in the lower share of the market, where the number of shows is much higher, the number of problems is also higher. A quick look on the Vocal Health forum will show people asking around about how to protect their voices and others concerned with surgery results.

But no, we who are actually singing and using our voices without ruinning it dont know shit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And then we are back to the same stuff from before.

Technique is needed to protect your voice if you are going to live from it. Maybe you can manage to do without it for a while? On a FEW cases yes, if can manage to come up with quality somehow, but even in those cases, the risks are there, as so many pop stars showed us: Chris Cornell, Adele, John Mayer, Hetfield, Klaus Meine all had problems. And all had to do therapy and use at least some technique afterwards.

Also in the lower share of the market, where the number of shows is much higher, the number of problems is also higher. A quick look on the Vocal Health forum will show people asking around about how to protect their voices and others concerned with surgery results.

But no, we who are actually singing and using our voices without ruinning it dont know shit.

You need the right technique for the right note. I had pretty good technique for the majority of my range except the top two notes could have used work. I could tell cause I never had problems, and I was very good with things like breath support and didn't use a breathy tone often. My technique worked for me, cause I slowly expanded it very carefully over the course of a few years, and gradually improved it, very patiently.

But when you decide to rebuild the voice from the ground up, as I did trying to zip up the vocal cords, gug, creaking and crying indefinitely, and tongue stretching for 4 octaves and perfect 'equal volume on every note' within the course of a month or two that's VERY dangerous.

People of all kinds have voice problems, including people with classical training, by the way. There is nothing wrong with trying to be healthy and I would encourage lessons for health reasons to everyone, but obviously what I was doing before I was injured was much healthier than what I was doing when I got injured.

If I never sang any higher than a polished G#4, big deal. That's a lot of really good songs to be written rather than 'perfect bridge' just gug until you get there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where as if someone actually helped me sing in my own style

Actually, pretty much all of the most popular vocal programs that are discussed on this forum on a daily basis do this.

It's just important that WHILE you're doing the exercises from your vocal program of choice that you:

a) Make sure your throat should NEVER and ...

B) Make sure regularly sing with whatever the hell of a sound you want - ugly, pretty, whatever - just make it emotional. Do this before and after the more strict vocal exercises (sirens, scales, etc.) so that you don't lose touch with who you want to be as an artist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But when you decide to rebuild the voice from the ground up, as I did trying to zip up the vocal cords, gug, creaking and crying indefinitely, and tongue stretching for 4 octaves and perfect 'equal volume on every note' within the course of a month or two that's VERY dangerous.

If you do it and have it as your number one rule to always stop the second your throat hurts to re-evaluate, then NO, this is incorrect. It's not dangerous. And MUCH more people have injured their throats by NOT taking vocal lessons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I disagree it's not dangerous. I sang fine for 3 years, and the the minute I added that bullshit, I lost my voice for life. I believe if I had kept doing what I was doing before I would have been ok. Not 3 octaves + amazing bridge, but ok.

I've got no reason to expect why I could sing for like an hour previously with no problems on a daily basis and then all of the sudden voice train wreck.

Maybe CVT would have worked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did you stop as soon as your throat hurt?

On the tongue stretch, yes.

On the gug, it didn't hurt at first, but it felt weird, and then it did hurt a bit. So I stopped, and when I tried to sing my throat blew out. So that one was weird, I might have been able to predict it better, but I dunno.

The Creaky voice and vocal zip up and all of that stuff, my voice just felt 'different.' I can't really describe what happened other than 'something changed or felt tighter' and I figured since well, I was trying to rehabilitate my voice into this new kind of 'mix voice' thing change was good. It's not, people.

Don't fix what isn't broken, if your voice feels 'different' then that's not good. The previous voice worked fine my entire life without E5. Not a big deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Killer is it possible you may have had some undiagnosed underlying condition? I have done gugs and shit without getting any negative side effects. They are basically glottal attacks which are not the best onsets, but if done lightly and sparingly they shouldn't cause much trouble.

Also if you were singing A4#s without decent technique you probably would end up with nodules sooner or later. I've belted quite a few A4s and some A4#s and while it may feel fine, sometimes better than others it was always at least tense and that stuff leads to problems sooner or later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...