Hate to be a tenor :(

[Daug Poland]

I don't know how to put this.

After recent years a have learned many things; I have expand my vocal range, I have found most of metal-type vocal distortions. I was heading for those thing's 'couse i wanted to find brutal vocals that will fit heavy style of music that I write.

And what is killing me is that my voice can't fit my musical ideas. I can't just express myself the way i wish

Despite the fact i have found myself able to go almost every type of music genre (also my favorite) I can't find myself doing it exactly the way I desire becouse of the sound of my lirycal high and soft type voice.

I know that many people whish to have different type of voice than they have naturally, but in my case it is something more.

Is there a

metod to change my type of voice?

I don't think there is - I have desided to record my stuff with some other vocalist which is kinda frustrating. I can't find myself now as a vocalist. I consider to quit my vocal practising 'couse I have found it more frustrating than cheerful.

I'm writing these things couse I wanted just to spit it out of myself and secondly - this is truth you can learn any technique but it is not always truth that you can learn to sing exactly as you desire. There is simply no way to be in NBA when you're a 5ft tall.

[Sun]

Can you link some of your singing? When you say lyric tenor it makes me think of like f.ex. Michael Jackson and I remember you having a metallica clip where you didn't sound particularly high voiced at all.

I'm thinking it's likely you are either not using the proper setup for your desired tone or you might just be stressing too much over nothing.

[D.Starr]

I'd kill to be a tenor rather than a lousy Baritone :/ You have to roll with what you have, scuplt your own style.

[Daug Poland]

Can you link some of your singing? When you say lyric tenor it makes me think of like f.ex. Michael Jackson and I remember you having a metallica clip where you didn't sound particularly high voiced at all.

I'm thinking it's likely you are either not using the proper setup for your desired tone or you might just be stressing too much over nothing.

Lyrical is not a mid-tenor?

some old stuff - http://www.box.com/s/g4j1chce2pb9y7sj6sz8

http://www.box.com/s/2kpfa6zu846m5rvb7oeg

As you can hear i was not putting myslef into it. More kinda like some fooling arround. I do not even listen to Helloween's stuff.

i prefer Metalllica, Black Label Society and other Zakk Wylde's stuff, Adrenaline Mob and Symphony X, DIO, Testament, Guv't Mule, Soundgarden... And covering Metallica Stuff was very hard for me becouse I had to get very dark and loud on lower voice. It's just too far from natural and not sound good either..

I'd kill to be a tenor rather than a lousy Baritone :/ You have to roll with what you have, scuplt your own style.

I can sing in some cover band or do this power metal vocals if somebody whish me to do do, but the case is I can't collaborate with my very own musical creativeness.

[ronws]

Yo, Daug. I totally get it, too. And even though my rule is to sing songs for which my voice is suited, I will still sing songs that are not matched to my voice and certainly, it brings harsh critique because the listener is expecting it to sound like the original.

Also, you are expecting your voice to sound like the others you have heard. So, you are trying to fit a mold. How about you start a new mold? In fact, how do you think heavy metal progressed to favoring the dark baritone? Because those guys broke the mold of their time and started their own. That being said, I was watching the Hall of Fame Concert and Hetfield has learned to lighten up as he approaches the G4 area.

I, too, am "stuck" being a tenor. There are things I do easily that others would give their right arm for. And vice versa. Such is life. Express yourself with what you have. That being said, it's okay to stretch and learn new things. And one of the new things you must learn is to like the sound you can make and do something with it.

[Marcus]

I think your voice sounds awesome. You seem to have a wide span of what you can do with your voice, singing high, singing low, adding grit and distorsion. Honestly I can't understand what you're really complaining about. If you want a darker soundcolour you could experimenting with lowering the larynx a bit, but I don't really hear that it would be much of a problem for you singing lower if that's what you want.

Offcourse everyone's voice is unique, and not everyone can impersonate Hetfield properly. But don't set that up as your single goal! Other people would kill for your topnotes, I can tell you that much!

Thanks for the cred for Vocal Dominance by the way Me and Jens had a lot of fun recording that video.

[Sun]

Lyrical is not a mid-tenor?

some old stuff - http://www.box.com/s/g4j1chce2pb9y7sj6sz8

http://www.box.com/s/2kpfa6zu846m5rvb7oeg

As you can hear i was not putting myslef into it. More kinda like some fooling arround. I do not even listen to Helloween's stuff.

i prefer Metalllica, Black Label Society and other Zakk Wylde's stuff, Adrenaline Mob and Symphony X, DIO, Testament, Guv't Mule, Soundgarden... And covering Metallica Stuff was very hard for me becouse I had to get very dark and loud on lower voice. It's just too far from natural and not sound good either..

I can sing in some cover band or do this power metal vocals if somebody whish me to do do, but the case is I can't collaborate with my very own musical creativeness.

You sound like a standard tenor, and you sound great. I agree your voice wouldn't fit BLS material, but Zakk has a veery deep voice even your average baritone would sound lighter than him. I understand why you feel like you do, I'm familiar with most the bands you listed but you can still sing this kind of grunge/hard-rock style if you are a standard tenor. Best example of this would probably be Myles Kennedy from alter bridge:

I have to agree with Ronws, you're trying to fit a mold with singers such as Zakk Wylde, you'll never sound like him, his voice is completely different. I would rather have guys like Myles Kennedy as my ideal if I were you. It's like you say, you can do a lot with technique, but you can't change the timbre of your voice, I don't have this problem because most my favourite singers have the same voice type as mine. I think you just have to deal with it, change vocal ideal or just go with the flow and be awesome, you have a great voice. It's also possible that your taste changes along the line, I used to be a BLS fan but it's just not my cup of tea anymore.

[slstone]

Hey Daug,

I would say that learning some advance techniques would help you tremendously, because I have said before that technique helps one to sing what one wishes, but others have told me that technique doesn't matter, so I won't tell you that.

It appears to me that you are a 'I want to be great, not mediocre' kind of person.

My advice would be to follow my brother Ron's advice, and to add to it.

I am one of those who cannot do grit, i.e.. growl, roughen up my voice(makes my throat hurt and makes me cough).

So do those songs, best that your voice can do, but perhaps put your own bit of attitude into it.

Alot of successful singing is putting your mind in the right setting before hitting the record button.

This is your expecto patronum spell. Think of things that make you emotionally feel what that song says

and means, that way, grit or not, distortion or not, what you want will come out.

This is the inexpensive approach. Having a voice teacher would help too, lol...

[Jens]

Bah your just bitching now... How many even amongst proffesionals can sound exactly the way they want? Almost none since you always want what you dont have

Come back to reality, cause there are certainly nothing wrong with your voice

[NCdan]

I don't know how to put this.

After recent years a have learned many things; I have expand my vocal range, I have found most of metal-type vocal distortions. I was heading for those thing's 'couse i wanted to find brutal vocals that will fit heavy style of music that I write.

And what is killing me is that my voice can't fit my musical ideas. I can't just express myself the way i wish

Despite the fact i have found myself able to go almost every type of music genre (also my favorite) I can't find myself doing it exactly the way I desire becouse of the sound of my lirycal high and soft type voice.

I know that many people whish to have different type of voice than they have naturally, but in my case it is something more.

Is there a

metod to change my type of voice?

I don't think there is - I have desided to record my stuff with some other vocalist which is kinda frustrating. I can't find myself now as a vocalist. I consider to quit my vocal practising 'couse I have found it more frustrating than cheerful.

I'm writing these things couse I wanted just to spit it out of myself and secondly - this is truth you can learn any technique but it is not always truth that you can learn to sing exactly as you desire. There is simply no way to be in NBA when you're a 5ft tall.

I'm also a tenor and I though I had a wimpy voice until I learned to move the "resonance" or "placement" higher and lower in my larynx. I can get as heavy as I want, so heavy that it sounds like a joke just by lowering my larynx. I just thought I'd throw this out there just in case. Good luck.

[Daug Poland]

wow.. what a respond.

Thank You guys.

Ronws, Thnx for understending. I know what you mean. Nowadays it is not so rarely that tenor's do sing realy heavy stuff. I have tried to spot this wave and mangle Alter Bridge stuff (just as Sun suggest).

But I can't catch the right flow with that. However I will try more.

Sun, I know I can't sound like Zakk. He is just one of my influances. These days my biggest guru is Allen - and I know he is a low tenor .deamn. just I tiny bit of thickness more...

Marcus, I'm glad that you like my tribute .. And you know - it is realy not about impersonate anyone's voice. It is about to have naturally thicker voice - and i mean thicker and not just darker voice.

slstone, all truth. What I have spoted is when I have riched thise skills (i mean high notes and grit..) I have now - I found that it is appreciated by peaple who are into singing techiniques etc. but the others (like average audience) don't give a sh**. And It reminded me that before I started to sing , I realy did not like most of high screaming or just high singing singers.

Bah your just bitching now... How many even amongst proffesionals can sound exactly the way they want? Almost none since you always want what you dont have

Come back to reality, cause there are certainly nothing wrong with your voice

hah.. you're always shoot it streight .

I did not say there is something wrong with my voice. It's realy ok. I even like it sometimes. but it's just not thick enought to sing hard core plowing heavy stuff which I love to play on my guitar

NCdan. Can You give me some sample of that please?

Thank You !

Regards

[srs7593]

I know you said you don't like Helloween, but have you heard Kai Hansen's singing? Some of it is just jaw dropping. Like a possessed Geddy Lee. I don't think it matters too much how heavy your voice is as long as the intent is there. And also, how about Marco Hietala of Tarot? Or even Dio? Both of them have/had pretty high voices. But it allows them to really advantage of resonance and support in the mid passaggio.

[basil]

Interesting post Many of the heavy sounding vocals tracks are builted up using multi tracks of the same vocals sung over and over and layered all together. They're also very compressed and fxs are uesd to get that bigger than life sound.

[Daug Poland]

srs7593, I did not say that I don't like Helloween. Just not listen to;) .. And I know Kai Hansen (look up- I have made cover of Ride The Sky).

Now Gaddy Lee is exactly the type of singing I don't like. And I do like DIO and Marco Hietala very much indeed. And they both are LOW tenors. Just like Russell Allen or Steven Tyler or even Kai Hansen and Brcue Dickinson! Thise thin line between Regular and Low Tenor are enough to make me angry 'couse it realy makes huge difference.

rephaels I'm quite young... but not so much as my personality appears to be . I'm 28. So After 16 years of being a Metal fan I don't think I will change my point of view in short time.

basil, I know that.

Again - it is not about how low or dark i can get. It is about how thick the basic tone can be.

I can sing very deamn low and dark and with distortion but there will never be the intensety, strenght and the power of a lower type voice and it is realy not the deal even. The deal is to actualy sing on a non-dark setting at all and sound thicker. In My opinion High Baritones or at least Low Tenors are sounding better on high notes than Regular or Hight Tenors especially in metal music. That is where they going right out of the comfortamble zone and the auditioners are getting thise sensation that singer is on the top of his abilities, putting his whole body and sole to the tune!

Thank You All!!

You are great motivators!

I just must rebuild myself somehow :/

regards!

[ronws]

Again - it is not about how low or dark i can get. It is about how thick the basic tone can be.

In My opinion High Baritones or at least Low Tenors are sounding better on high notes than Regular or Hight Tenors especially in metal music. That is where they going right out of the comfortamble zone and the auditioners are getting thise sensation that singer is on the top of his abilities, putting his whole body and sole to the tune!

regards!

I have reached similar conclusions as well and I think it has very much to do with the basic tone and starting range of a singer. Even Steven Fraser once pointed out that a bass or baritone singing a C5 (and it can be done) will sound tonally different than a tenor singing the same note. And that is just going to always make sense to me. I can take the lowest pitched string (# 6, low E, E2 on the piano) and make it play a G3. And it will sound tonally different than 3rd string (already tuned to G3) open.

As for whether the note sounds better or not, that is a matter of aesthetics, the sound ideal of the genre. Since a number of heavy metal singers have been low tenors and baritones who have developed, essentially, some counter tenor skills, and then became popular, that has become the standard. In fact, the sound ideal has been about tone, rather than absolute range. I was watching, again, the "Somewhere Back In Time" Tour. The film is entitled, "Iron Maiden: Flight 666." The film ends at the show in Columbia with "Run to the Hills." And his top note in that song is not super-high. But he does get quite a bit of grit. Which works fine in his voice.

And really, since grunge, much of pop music and metal has begun to favor the baritone. For example, Corey Taylor. He might not be able to sing a C6 no matter what. But Slipknot sold many albums with growly baritone grandiosity and a cool Halloween mask.

That one season of American Idol, it was the public that voted for the other guy, against the judges' wishes, instead of Adam Lambert. That is, the voting public preferred the dusty light baritone to the metallic tenor.

And I agree with Raphael. Find something you like and do it. And the rest of the world can take a flying leap into a lake.

Too often, in recent memory, advice on singing reads more like a blueprint for how to get on American Idol. I know I'm just an old guy and I will never be famous and I have no desire to do the roadwork it takes to be famous. For that matters more than all of the generic advice. The real big stars started out playing in restaurants and any public place that they did not get thrown out of, first. And they did it for years.

Most "overnight" successes took 5 or 10 years to become an overnight sensation. Others just had the right connections at the right time. Johnny Lang had a recording contract at 17. Bugs Henderson, older than I am by 2 decades, never hit it as big, though he has a hardcore fan base. And a friend of mine lived across the street from him, at one time. That was pretty neat.

Calleigh was rejected in the first round of auditions for AI. She didn't even get to the on-camera audition for the judges. She was too quiet, not enough drama in her voice or life, not "kooky" enough to satisfy someone's skewed idea of what a pop star needs to be. So, she went and wrote "Bubbly" and that song just went crazy up the charts. And now, every song played in a commercial is crafted to sound like her. Not bad for an "American Idol" - reject who had a soft, quiet voice and didn't feel like acting like a clown.

So, Daug, make your own mold, and then, break out of that. The only rule to success is the consistent time you spend creating your music. And determination. And the hard work doesn't mean stretching your voice to the breaking point. It means the physical hard work of performing.

The Yardbirds fell apart but not before Jimmy Page had assigned to him the rights to the name, Yardbirds. He tried to rebuild the Yardbirds. He went to fellow studio musician John Paul Jones. Jimmy was looking at several singers before Jones told him about this unknown "soul" singer named Robert Anson Plant. He went and saw guy, who was singing some standard pop songs but, man, that voice. Plant had a childhood friend that whacked the skins like a madman. That was John Bonham. They actually started a tour without a real name. Jimmy felt they were a little to different, now, to just be Yardbirds. Friend and fellow drummer Keith Moon had a saying about gigs going badly. ("It was going down like a lead zeppelin.") Jimmy chose the name. During a week break in the tour, they recorded the first album in 3 days, start to finish, and didn't even have a title. And toured solid for 3 years. And, for a total of 12 years, they toured every year, sometimes twice a year.

It wasn't just that they had a sound the fans liked (for the critics never liked them.) They would get themselves out there for the fans. That's the hard work, the grind. Doing the shows.

Plant sounded like no one else. And didn't try to sound like anyone else. Though he could kind of mimick one of his favorites, Elvis, when he wanted to.

So, after all of this rambling, Daug needs to sound like Daug.

[Marcus]

Well, I can totally get the feeling. I don't think there's many singers who is totally happy with their own voices. There's always room for improvement, and to some extent I think it's a great thing, wanting to improve. It keeps you motivated to practice singing. But don't get too hung up on the improvement thing.

Personally I don't really hear your voice as a "weak" tenor voice. Yes, there are different type of voices. And most people want to have another type of voice from what they personally have. Myself I was so dissapointed to be a basso/baritone, since I've always wanted to be a power metal tenor. I always envied the natural tenors who could sing the way I wanted to sound. But I've grown to like my voice and what I can do with it, and there's always so much room for improvement that you can achieve with practice.

And about the vocal weight, thickness, your're after - I hope Jens allow me to take him as an example. Oftentimes when we have been recording and he have been doing some highscreams that he in his head concieves as very heady and thin I have to really tell him it sounds so damn manly and brutal before he can actually hear how good it sounds. People tend to get a bit "blind" to how they actually sound compared to how they THINK that they sound.

Bottom line - you have a really cool voice, and it's also very wide in what you can do with it. When you add distorsion you also add some thickness to it, and I personally don't hear you as thin or weak. Do continue practicing and setting up goals for yourself, but I definately agree with Jens post, you gotta come back to reality :)

[VideoHere]

perhaps a lot of folks will not agree with me, but i believe one's voice can be thickened, the same way another voice can be thinned.

just my opinion, but i believe it's a matter of selecting the right teacher and/or doing the right exercises to improve the air pressure (support generated) maximizing resonance, and raising the percentage of chest voice (t/a proportion musculature) contained in higher notes (extending chest for lack of a better term) and it can take years.

this is if i am understanding your question correctly.

[HalcyonAugust2]

you can be in the nba when your a 5 footer?

tell that to spud webb.

and another thing you cannot and will not ever sound like anyone but yourself

but just cuz you can't sound like adam lambert or whoever it is you want to sound like

that doesn't mean you can't be great

just be who you are and get good at it

it's called "personality"

and btw spud webb was 5ft 6

and he won a slam dunk competition

google it up

[Daug Poland]

Whell.

Ronws,. I see you as great explorer about voices and I admire your passion. This is all true. But you have to admit I must give up on the basic genre that I wish to create. And I really do not stand behind what people wants. I know that my voice is not bad. And some realy do like when I'm singing. Some have even spoted something unique and strong about it (knife- as my fried Scorpione from polish forum said). And could just go and do things thay want me to do and be happy but.... This is not about I wish to sound like some of my favorites. I want to be me and sound like me just thicker and with posibility to make my music realy the way I want to and not the way that I have to.

So it needs a change in my view. It needs a change in what I realy, deeply wonna do.

Marcus As I said ^^ . I know my voice is not bad (of course need some practice) . Thank You for kind word. I know what you mean. I have considering myself as a one who got it over with. Also I'm judging this problem through the prism of how I hear other tenors like me, trying to do baritones lines.

VIDEOHERE, Yeh. I wish that could be possible without makin' any injury. Some of the voicalist's had janged thair voice type through the years. I remember I saw some video of Yngwie Malmsteen's/ Steeel Dragon vocalist speeking of that. Hetfield has go from low tenor to high baritone (only he is not so good vocalist to take for example) Elton John went down after operation. Just I don't know if that is safe and also I don't belive that is possible to do in short time (it probebly would take years)

HalcyonAugust2 I knew that someone will pops out with that . btw I'm just 5ft 6.9in

Thank You guys!

I will try to find and rebuild myself. Thank you that you ware so nice and took time for reps.

Regards!

[VideoHere]

i have learned if you have really developed good support so that you are capable of greater breath tension, aren't pushing anything, (the key to it, don't push) not over squeezing anything, you can most definitely thicken and add vocal weight to the voice with little concern for injury.

[slstone]

I have to throw in my thoughts as well. 1st off, whoever mentioned Marco. That guy is unstoppable. With his parted beard, he definitely looks like a viking, and he is in 3 bands. Tarot, Nightwish and Northern Kings. I don't think he knows what rest means.

Daug, let me set your mind at ease. You don't have to have gravel in your throat to be an awesome metal singer. Look at people like Michael Sweet from Stryper, C.J. Snare from Firehouse, James Labrie doesn't growl often. Even Kiske kept his tone rather smooth.

However, when it comes to technique, I am a real stickler. For instance, to me, to sing a high note is not impressive. To sing a high note and hold it for a while, add wild vibrato, etc. does. Not everyone can do it right away. In other words, technique has to be learned and practiced. It doesn't come overnight. So the thing to do is set your goal. Then consistently and persistently work on it. Perfect it. Unfortunately if it were easy to develope, we would all have been big stars when we were 18. Don't give up on advancing your skill just because it seems difficult. That is the recipe for mediocrity and failure. And as I have said before, in my opinion, just being good enough isn't enough. Aim for excellence, even if you don't reach it, your skill will increase more than if you aim for 'good enough'.

I said in another post, and I still believe it. Technique gives you the skills to make your audience feel the emotion with which you are hammering them.

[VideoHere]

great post slstone...it's a lot more physical than we first realize. none of the real great stuff comes easy or fast.

but a lot of folks don't want to face up to the fact.

[Daug Poland]

Hi

I have made some little attempt to sound big. It's just a test and not a propper cover -> http://www.box.com/s/0mp1d9jc0vvvfapjd2vf (whole was sung in overdrive on OH and EH vowels)

What do you honestly think? Do I fit this kind of sh*t?

I have sang second vers reducing the volume slightly. Can you here some loss of power? Which verse sound better?

[Daug Poland]

slstone,This is the thing that I repeated myself to others.

I have been there. You see - we all here care for the technique and we very often started to like some vocalists just when we realized how great their technique is. This is not that I don't believe in this what you have said.

You mentioned some great singers. Apart from Marco they arent even in my first 40 of fav vocals. I don't like Sebastian Bach, Gaddy Lee, Sweet, Matijevic, Kiske and similar.....I do appreciate their technique but i just do not listen their stuff. Actually I don't listen to Dream Teather only 'couse i hate Labrie's vocals The only regular tenor I do like, is polish singer Czesław Niemen (r.i.p.) And he is not a Heavy Metal singer.

Don't tell me you can't hear the differance between Low tenor's like DIO, Hietala, Allen, Halford, Bruce Dickinson, Styven Tyler and above ones ... This is about taste. You just want me to start to like more stuff i don't like and find myself doing it my own way.

I appreciate it but you must admit this is not simple. It needs not only a change of musical style, but change of personality. And there is no other way.

Thank you mate for your efforts!

Best wishes!

[Sun]

slstone,This is the thing that I repeated myself to others.

I have been there. You see - we all here care for the technique and we very often started to like some vocalists just when we realized how great their technique is. This is not that I don't believe in this what you have said.

You mentioned some great singers. Apart from Marco they arent even in my first 40 of fav vocals. I don't like Sebastian Bach, Gaddy Lee, Sweet, Matijevic, Kiske and similar.....I do appreciate their technique but i just do not listen their stuff. Actually I don't listen to Dream Teather only 'couse i hate Labrie's vocals The only regular tenor I do like, is polish singer Czesław Niemen (r.i.p.) And he is not a Heavy Metal singer.

Don't tell me you can't hear the differance between Low tenor's like DIO, Hietala, Allen, Halford, Bruce Dickinson, Styven Tyler and above ones ... This is about taste. You just want me to start to like more stuff i don't like and find myself doing it my own way.

I appreciate it but you must admit this is not simple. It needs not only a change of musical style, but change of personality. And there is no other way.

Thank you mate for your efforts!

Best wishes!

For sure there is a big difference between f.ex. Bach, Labrie vs Dio, Allen etc. But a tenor can sound more badass.

I listened to your clip, you are singing some of the mid/lower notes with a growly character like hetfield, but then you go clean like a choirboy on the top notes. You need to add some distortion to everything and not just the lows. Also at 57 it sounds like kermit the frog where I think you were wanting to add distortion but I'm not sure.

I think there is hope for you if you learn to add that rasp (or just do it if you already can) :)