Daug Poland Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 For sure there is a big difference between f.ex. Bach, Labrie vs Dio, Allen etc. But a tenor can sound more badass. I listened to your clip, you are singing some of the mid/lower notes with a growly character like hetfield, but then you go clean like a choirboy on the top notes. You need to add some distortion to everything and not just the lows. Also at 57 it sounds like kermit the frog where I think you were wanting to add distortion but I'm not sure. I think there is hope for you if you learn to add that rasp (or just do it if you already can) Thnx Sun. You see if I go for distortion in thise hight notes i must go also much brighter. The kermit thing was for growl (armstrong-like) and not distirtion. I thought I was sounding full and big on high notes and you say it's like choirboy. Great. And I know I sound much better and sing much better when i'm not trying to sound fat. So... i don't know. I'm making a fool of myself. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sun Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thnx Sun. You see if I go for distortion in thise hight notes i must go also much brighter. The kermit thing was for growl (armstrong-like) and not distirtion. I thought I was sounding full and big on high notes and you say it's like choirboy. Great. And I know I sound much better and sing much better when i'm not trying to sound fat. So... i don't know. I'm making a fool of myself. Sorry. No way man, don't get me wrong your high notes sound great! I meant they are sparkly clean when they should be really really raspy but the actual tone is great lol! The core of my message was add some distortion and you'll be there!! Listen to the alter bridge clip I posted 4:08 - 4:25, there is more balls in that line than anything I've heard from Zakk Wylde and I think you could pull that off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hi I have made some little attempt to sound big. It's just a test and not a propper cover -> http://www.box.com/s/0mp1d9jc0vvvfapjd2vf (whole was sung in overdrive on OH and EH vowels) What do you honestly think? Do I fit this kind of sh*t? I have sang second vers reducing the volume slightly. Can you here some loss of power? Which verse sound better? Daug - I listened to this clip. Your voice is just fine. It is thick and does sound like a low tenor / baritone. I don't hear any "choir boy" sound at all. The thickness of your voice is right on for the pitches you are singing. It does not sound thin. From your posts it sound like you want more controlled distortion up high. That is something acheivable - something you just need to work on. It is a technique you can learn. I think you are suffering from the normal syndrome of not liking your own voice. There are several theories why Everyone tends to dislike their own voice. Keep on recording and get used to your voice. You should also make sure that the room you recording in doesn't color your voice. That can be a real phsychological problem. Standing Waves can make your voice sound worse and you can't get rid of this with EQ. It ruins the recording and leads one to not like their voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Ok guys! Thank you So I will try to work harder on that. I realy must. If you say it's worth it. I will try. After all i really have done quite a big way to get there. guitartrek. I have a cheap microphone (shure c606) which is plugged dirctly into PC's Sound Blaster Card. So results are what are and there is not much I can squeez out of that. Here is some sample of what I'm creating with guitar's --> http://www.box.com/s/lg5jqocaznd6ys1algd4 I wanted to slightly relax the atmosphere. This song is called - "Let me show you my p.." So you can here what Is my guitars stuff is like (there is just some loss of the guitar's from chorus 'couse I will show it when the whole track be ready. regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Daug - I don't think the mic is bad - you need to make sure the environment you are recording in gives you a truer recording of your voice. if you've got hard walls that are parallel to each other that's a problem. Carpeting, blankets on the walls, non-parallel walls, or just setting your mic up in front of an open closet full of close will help prevent those standing waves from altering your tone. I say this from experience. I used to hate my voice - I didn't pay attention to the room I recorded in. It was the room not my voice. When I set up the right recording environment I could hear my true voice. You need to get used to hearing your true voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 guitartrek, that is quite interesting. I have a large room and naked walls. I will try to do something with that. Thnx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Something I have learned that I have been doing wrong, after reading a book on how to record vocals. For loud singers like me, the mic should be up even with the bridge of the nose and angled down. Whereas, I have been recording with the mic just below my chin and subject to the brutal onslaught. So, while considering the ambience of the room, also consider mic placement. From what I am reading, I can place the mic closer as long as it is in the right spot and reduce room ambience. So, the next time I record something, I will certainly try what I have read. As well as try to refine my mixing skills, which are normally deplorable, to something that can produce a decent sound. Then, again, if I still sound like a dying animal, there won't be any excuse. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 Thank You Guys! I have made DIO cover with new approach. and after some playin' with microphone setup . http://themodernvocalist.punbb-hosting.com/viewtopic.php?id=3695 Check it please. regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olem Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I don't know how to put this. After recent years a have learned many things; I have expand my vocal range, I have found most of metal-type vocal distortions. I was heading for those thing's 'couse i wanted to find brutal vocals that will fit heavy style of music that I write. And what is killing me is that my voice can't fit my musical ideas. I can't just express myself the way i wish Despite the fact i have found myself able to go almost every type of music genre (also my favorite) I can't find myself doing it exactly the way I desire becouse of the sound of my lirycal high and soft type voice. I know that many people whish to have different type of voice than they have naturally, but in my case it is something more. Is there a metod to change my type of voice? I don't think there is - I have desided to record my stuff with some other vocalist which is kinda frustrating. I can't find myself now as a vocalist. I consider to quit my vocal practising 'couse I have found it more frustrating than cheerful. I'm writing these things couse I wanted just to spit it out of myself and secondly - this is truth you can learn any technique but it is not always truth that you can learn to sing exactly as you desire. There is simply no way to be in NBA when you're a 5ft tall. Sorry, but i think you are way out of line. I may be wrong but what i have heard from your clips you definately aren´t a lyrical tenor - a lyrical tenor would have the timbre of Michael Jackson for example and you don´t have that. I can´t see you have a timbre of Michael Jackson or Steve Perry after i have heard your excellent performances of "Holy Diver" and "Forever and free". I think after i have heard both your highs and your lows that you are a Dramatic Tenor (Bruce Dickinson for example) - a low tenor, or maybe a high baritone singer, Jorn Lande for example. You have a way to deep voice for being a lyrical tenor or a high tenor IMO. But put an example of a Michael Jackson song or a Journey song or maybe a talking clip and then there will be no shadow of a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I agree with Olem. I think you have everything in your voice that you say that you lack, Daug. So, then, I also agree with Geno. You are suffering from not liking your voice just because it doesn't sound exactly like someone else, which is something in which you should rejoice. And that is harder than any scale, harder than any "technique." Changing your mind is the toughest work of all. Singing is mental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 ?? Are you working with a coach? Please do not take it wrongly, but what I hear on Holy Diver and Forever and One is a voice trying tons of different placements and postures to do each vowel, lacks legatto and homogeneity. It really will not translate power well, but surely not beacuse of your tone! Your voice is not that light, but the larynx shifts up in some vowels and it breaks the tonal character. Being completely honest, I dont see any other way than working back on your lower register and support and fixing those vowels on their core. The emission is not ajusted. The proof is on that Holy Diver recording, on the first verses you used something that is closer what EE focus is and it sounded more powerfull, but it quickly went when an open vowel came. You tried to recreate it on the verse after the chorus and another posture came in, completely different from what you did on the beggining, braking the interpretation line. It can be way more open, projected, focused and homogeneous. I recommend seeking another coach. GL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe Carvalho Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 And BTW, being a tenor, baritone or bass is irrelevant to do pop music, specially if you plan on doing your own material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Wow.. Olem, I tought that a lirycal tenor is the same as a regular tenor. Sorry - my lapse. . I was also considered a possibility to develope a "fake" low tenor voice out of my mid-tenor voice just like my fav. R. Allen do and he is a Low Tenor and he imitate a Baritone voice throught using creaking and a distortion simultaneously. And I'm really surrprised you can hear some real dramatic tenor or high baritone quality. Anyway, I am very pleased of that fact :) Ronws, I begin to believe you're right on this point. Just somehow I repulse the possibility that my self-criticism results from the lack of self-acceptance. No metter - I feel much more confident after so many oppinions. And the heck - I feel proud of my "Holy Diver" 'couse I did it very close to sound I deeply desire. ?? Are you working with a coach? Please do not take it wrongly, but what I hear on Holy Diver and Forever and One is a voice trying tons of different placements and postures to do each vowel, lacks legatto and homogeneity. It really will not translate power well, but surely not beacuse of your tone! Your voice is not that light, but the larynx shifts up in some vowels and it breaks the tonal character. Being completely honest, I dont see any other way than working back on your lower register and support and fixing those vowels on their core. The emission is not ajusted. The proof is on that Holy Diver recording, on the first verses you used something that is closer what EE focus is and it sounded more powerfull, but it quickly went when an open vowel came. You tried to recreate it on the verse after the chorus and another posture came in, completely different from what you did on the beggining, braking the interpretation line. It can be way more open, projected, focused and homogeneous. I recommend seeking another coach. GL! I'm a self-tought . NEVER had any lesson with a coach. So I'm just an amateur. About my vowel's plasements - Most of what I learned is based on CVT book. I pick my vowels depending on which vocal mode I'm going to choose (Neutral, Curbing, Overdrive, Edge). In the past I had a lot to think about the vowels, while singing. In these days I do it more automatically. So I do feel like I'm jumping on "different placements and postures" only i don't consider it as a huge mistake. I don't wonna have a ONE perfect tone - I'd rather have a few different, even not perfect ones. I like to ceep the sound from Helloween's stuff (high larynx and bright tone) and develope another with low and dark character and evil gritt Agreed on the EE vowel mistake on "Holy diver" - I have noticed that. But to speak frankly - I know that I have a lot of work ahead of me - but in the "Holy Diver" I did not do anything I would not be sure in case of the issues and feelings of comfort. Thank you for your opinion. Just please do not cosider me as a professional - I'm just a homegrown screamer and I do not even have, in my area (small polish town) vocal coach who would be able to make me a perfect X-factor singer ..and to be honest I really don't wonna be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 I'm glad you are finding your niche, Daug. I think vowel use is a matter of expression. For Dio, I think his most common vowel form or placement was "uh" in this song, where has you chose "ee" for more brighteness. And dominant notes were the ones centered on that sound. To some extent, every voice tunes itself a little differently. I mean, I understand Felipe's point and this song was, originally, a legato flow. But that legato can be broken up by the lyrics, themselves, for we are not singing in italian and that makes a big difference. And I see nothing wrong with changing vowel configs to express something you want to express. You picked a vowel sound that worked for you and I didn't really hear any break in the legato. Granted, this song was classically orchestrated. But it was also a little theater, too, which is not always about legato and more about storytelling. Legato is suited best, I think, in the old italian school of tone color and flow over libretto and articulation. This might be a heavy metal aria but you sang it like a rock star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Oh. I have never tought about ceeping a legato with one vowel trough whole verses and so on. I've always thought that rock singing is about actually continuous changing of onsets (I mean like a CVT modes- so also a vowel setup) and attacks to get the right moods and feeling and that is what keeps the perform interasting and dynamic. As I said - I am an amateur so forgive me. But as you said that I just realized now a conection between power-metal and classical stuff. . As I mentioned before- I don't listen to much of that kind of music so maybe that is why I did not payed attention to that. But I will do some motion in this legato-consistent direction if suggest it should be done (when i pick up next clasical power metal song ). Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 BTW Ronws, - I think DIO was very often on something so called howl-belt (term from Estill) . It means he use a Uh vowel but also EE and even EH with the same power .. and deamn, he had a great AH - . it requires a great support and he was just amazing when singing with full "body" on high notes. This is not the same as italian-school Uh/mix singing. Fix me if I'm wrong. Regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olem Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Daug, well i can´t say i could, but i would guess that you are a low tenor or a high baritone based on your timbre and voice character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 According to RJD, he never took voice lessons. But he was also a practical joker, giving different answers at different times about his background. He either started on the drums or french horns, depending on which history you are reading. There's no telling how he actually learned the sing. About the only clear thing that is established is that he is the first or second american-born generation if italian immigrants. That is, his grandmother was italian, accent and everything. At least as far as I know. Or, he was the current holder of the "Folds of Destiny." "You must go to the land of Hollywood!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 Yeah yeah yeah - He certainly sounded very italian-school'ish with The Prophets in the early years "But to learn the ancient method, Sacred doors you must unlock." Regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pianoasis Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I don't know how to put this. After recent years a have learned many things; I have expand my vocal range, I have found most of metal-type vocal distortions. I was heading for those thing's 'couse i wanted to find brutal vocals that will fit heavy style of music that I write. And what is killing me is that my voice can't fit my musical ideas. I can't just express myself the way i wish Despite the fact i have found myself able to go almost every type of music genre (also my favorite) I can't find myself doing it exactly the way I desire becouse of the sound of my lirycal high and soft type voice. I know that many people whish to have different type of voice than they have naturally, but in my case it is something more. Is there a metod to change my type of voice? I don't think there is - I have desided to record my stuff with some other vocalist which is kinda frustrating. I can't find myself now as a vocalist. I consider to quit my vocal practising 'couse I have found it more frustrating than cheerful. I'm writing these things couse I wanted just to spit it out of myself and secondly - this is truth you can learn any technique but it is not always truth that you can learn to sing exactly as you desire. There is simply no way to be in NBA when you're a 5ft tall. You do like thousands of others have done before, you work with it. You use your voice the best you can and embrace its sound. I'm sure thousands of popular band groups wish they had better singing voices, i.e. Green Day and Oasis. And by the way, there is a 4'11" left guard in the NBA. He plays for Miami Heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Yeah yeah yeah - He certainly sounded very italian-school'ish with The Prophets in the early years "But to learn the ancient method, Sacred doors you must unlock." Regards! I see that you, too, are conversant in the catechism of the "Pick of Destiny" and the daring young Jables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 If the short guard in the NBA is successful, it's because of his heart and technical skill, and not his physical features. I saw a story on a high school student who had lost his legs in an accident with a train. But he still played basketball and football. He had 3 or 4 quaterback sacks in a game. To continue the analogy, either one can achieve the same goal from different angles, so to speak. I'd hate to think of Daug as a short guy who is lucky enough to shoot baskets. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 I think Felipe has hit the nail on the head and gotten to the core of your issue, especially about working on the lower register (and it's connection with support). It's a lot of the same things I was hearing. When I listen to you, especially as you ascend, the voice doesn't keep its core the way it should if you're wanting a thicker sound. In more scientific terms, the TA lets go too much -- not so much that you disconnect, but too much for you to have the thickness you want. There are many ways of developing this more. One is by working on the lower register as Felipe mentioned. Assuming you do this without constricting too much, it should cause your support to kick in more. With a bit more emphasis on legato, it will help you to maintain support more efficiently and keep the core to the voice. In the beginning verse of "Holy Diver", you had more of this core to your voice. I think it's what Felipe is referring to as the EE focus. Once you learn to keep the core to your voice, the vowels will begin to take on a slightly different character on their own. They will sound fuller and thicker and less like the resonance is "going out of your mouth". (The "way" at 1:21 in "Holy Diver" is an example of this. Most of "Forever and One" demonstrates this too. Note how the voice suddenly changes color. It's because you got off the core of the voice.) With the core engaged, the voice will sound more "grounded". I don't think your voice is as light as you believe, but rather it's just the way you're using your voice. ~~Dante~~ Thank you Dante! It's true. I notice it. I found myself neglecting my lower register. And I was wondered is that passible that my TA muscles are letting go. So you confirm that here. I'm actually really glad you put this that way (!) 'couse secondly you dispel some confusion which I referred from Felipe's comments on the vowels, becouse I'm feel self- confident on them (only I didn't use them legato way) So I'm gonna work on. I'm doing more "fry" and low singing stuff. I have even noticed that I actually sound now a bit thicker while i speak Would you categorize me with a lower voice type than regular tenor? Thank you! Ronws haha .. actually I'm quite short guy (5f 6.9inch) but I can ride a motorcycle - the hell with basketball ;P ..and I always end up solo with a power-slide on the carpet ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Thank you Dante! I thought that vocal fry is helpful for thickening the sound 'couse it activating TA muscles. I have made two types of onsets http://www.box.com/s/cjxff6qlopdql044kxcm regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daug Poland Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Thank you again Dante!! Excellent piece of knowledge. And thnx for a kind word. I will grind my core and record something new soon Regards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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