jonpall Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Just for the fun of it I was experimenting a bit with the "Mmmmmjjjjjjjjeeeeeeeh" onsets from The Four Pillars 2.0 and I realized that it seems that sustaining the "M" and the "J" consonants for a few seconds is actually a pretty good way to find a good amount of twang. What you should be looking for (I think) is the addition of very high and sharp overtones to your voice. When you do it correctly it kind of sounds like a "buzz" in the background on top of your normal sound. And from there you "open up" to a vowel (and Eh vowel in this case) and make sure you don't lose those very sharp, twangy overtones. You can add low overtones to the high, twangy ones (which is good), but the point is to start from a very "small" place in your throat. Again, this makes sure that you have a very good amount of twang and will have a very "cutting voice" which will be heard well and can be modified to work for metal as well as opera. In fact, I think the some opera vocal coaches teach something similar. In the past, I thought this technique sounded a bit funny and never really tried it seriously, I must admit, and I thought that I had enough twang myself when I did my sirens. But the "M" and the "J" consonants seem to help you increase your twang and it made me think that I'm probably sometimes lazy at keeping that constant buzz/ring/twang. A bonus is that it makes high rasp easier and everything is just easier AND sounds better. Now, twang is common to a lot of vocal programs but I thought this was a neat technique. Maybe not the ONLY method to create tons of twang but it seems to be a good one and gets right to the point. Any of you guys have experience with it? And do you know why sustaining these consonants can help your twang? Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stew503 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hi JP not seen you post for a while - hope you are well. Interested in the use of "j" in this, is it a "j" or more v or z ? MmmmmmvvvEeeeehhhhhh The reason I say is referred to in a Mr Fraser post, "V, Z, voiced Th are my favorites, as they provide more 'back' pressure", so we are talking semi occusion. (I use "th" in a different context though (which I will explain at end of post)). yes, J will create a buzz, however more hard palate (palatal) frontal than Z, lower alveolar (teeth buzz) (or in my world a "fly" exercise - which the kids love - i.e. swatting the fly), V (a little higher- more lip), So am interested to know why a "j" over "z" or "v" (Mr. Fraser / Robert can you expand). As for the "mmmm" use, that's widely used in singing circles, "mum's, M's, phrases with M's in (Mummy made me ... etc, in scale), but I am interested in the "j" use. So, Mr Fraser or Robert - pls explain the use of "j" (if indeed it is a "j" , do you use it to occude, or other (i.e. the buzzy feeling) ? (books not around and is late at night, but in my world, "j" isn't used much). ... right the "th", I find that necessity to teach "th" is usually only is there is an articulation error in "th" vs. "f", so there are 20 or so sounds with "th" at start and 20 or so with "th" in the middle if words. I see "th" to "f" articualtion errors occasionally and have several exercise sheets based on words and the use of coach watching the tongue (dental fric) on the exercises. So also to add to conversation, why use of "th" if there isn't an articulation error (i.e. use v or z as an occusion exercise rather than "th"). Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 20, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hi Jon... The use of a "J" is a bit unclear and unusual, but that isn't to say it wouldn't help or give your voice a change of pace for a few days? No doubt, its probably perfectly healthy and fine. On the other hand, with all due respect to JonPall whom I enjoy as a client and member of this forum,... since when did 'buzzing' on an "Mmm" become a new idea? LOL. This is called resonant tracking and its a semi-occluded phonation. In fact I discuss it in some detail and explain what it is doing for you as a singer in the lecture titled, "What is a Semi-Occluded Phonation", also found on The Four Pillars of Singing 2.0. Click here to listen to the audio lecture: www.tinyurl.com/TVSFREELESSONS-TUTORIALS The TVS training system also has another lecture and demonstration called, "Buzzing & Sirens" where here again, I discuss and demonstrate the benefits of resonant tracking. Resonant tracking is all over the place on TVS content. As you will hear in the lecture, resonant tracking puts the larynx into a moderate twang position. It gives you cricoid tilt. The buzzyness that is making your lips vibrate when your mouth is closed is coming from twang! That IS twang inside, you don't fully hear and realize the benefits until you release when you shape your embouchure (mouth, lips, tongue, teeth) and engage your intrinsic anchoring (larynx dampening, tongue leveraging, vocal twang and vowel). So Jon, your getting a twangy result because when you buzz, the cause and reaction that is produced is vocal twang! Maybe that wasn't obvious... Your just experimenting with semi-occluded phonations is all. Be sure to dive into The Four Pillars of Singing 2.0 this time around, I don't want you to miss anymore details like this and suddenly think you stumbled upon something unique, when in fact, had you simply read the book, watched/listened to the lectures and practiced the lessons, you would of been buzzing and twanging like this long ago... or at least understood it better. Lastly, if the sound is a little bit "quacky" or "compressed" at first, don't freak out.. that is totally normal. To remove the quackyness from the phonation, don't stop twanging... start dumping your larynx, that is a big part of it. Another point I made in the book! Too often students blame a "quacky" sound on twang and the compression it creates, so they throttle back on the compression and begin chasing their tails. Sometimes, students are twanging too hard, so you need to check your twang throttle as well... but more often, and ugly duckling turns into a beautiful swan as soon as you engage your intrinsic anchoring and get your larynx down so you can twang inside of a bigger resonant space. Hope this helps... Jon, seriously dive into Pillars... I want to hear you demonstrating some of those difficult workouts deep into the system and sharing the links on this forum soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpall Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Sorry about the "J" consonant misunderstanding. I think I meant to say "Y" consonant or even an "ee" vowel. What I'm talking about is f.ex. phonating the word "you" but making the onset very long, like "yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyou". That Y or Ee sound at the onset seems to help you find twang fairly well. The "M" consonant seems to do so as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 22, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 22, 2012 Ok... because in English a "J" would be pretty funky dude? But you know, what ever floats your boat? No seriously JonPall, this sounds great. Hey, you can also try "ng" & "n"... Maestro Kyle used to have us alternate between "M", "N' & "NG" on the Pillars workout, "establishing the resonant track". Did you get all your files downloaded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronws Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Actually, spelling the word with a j is, I think, a result of where jonpall lives. Correct me if I am wrong, Jon, but in the other language that you speak, j has a y sound. When first read your post, I knew what sound you were talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stew503 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have to say the same myself. As I went to bed I thought of Germanic "j" as a "y" ish sound - i.e. Ja Just didn't post the thought. Even though it did make more sense. Anyway sorted now :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Fraser Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hi, Jonpall The J sound (pronounced as an /i/) , when elided from the M, starts in a very closed form... one with a very low first formant, in what we would call the umlaut family of vowel sounds. With this configuration, its fairly easy to also get the twanger engaged, and for the lower back of the throat to be clear of tongue constriction. The closed form helps the singer carry over the balanced phonation from the semi-occluded M into a vowel that is similarly balanced at the laryngeal level. Add twang, and you have a quality (if maintained in that very dark /i/ pronunciation) that will have a very low passaggio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 23, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 23, 2012 Interesting Steve, this basically sounds like my prescribed onset with a twang compression component in the work flow, moving from the "M" Semi-occluded phonation to a more open /i/ as in "Sit"... correct? Interesting to consider that this would lower the passaggio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Fraser Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Interesting Steve, this basically sounds like my prescribed onset with a twang compression component in the work flow, moving from the "M" Semi-occluded phonation to a more open /i/ as in "Sit"... correct? Interesting to consider that this would lower the passaggio? Rob...yez, quite similar. /i/ done this way will have a low passaggio...try a siren g3 to. G4 and you will feel it start earlier than with the more open vowel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 27, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 27, 2012 Ok, sure, because its more closed, this I am aware of but, why? What is the practical benefit of a siren on a closed vowel? To me it seems almost pointless unless you wanted to just throw in something clunky to add resistance and mess up your coordination in an effort to .... ? I'm actually trying to see some value here, but I can't. I just don't see any benefit in training sirens on closed vowels, seems like a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gno Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Isn't the low passagio the result of the 1st formant being low? Open or Closed, "ee" and "oo" have the same 1st first formant around F4. Wouldn't that drop the passagio point for both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 27, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 27, 2012 Perhaps Geno, I don't know, but the mechanism is clunky (TA/CT movement), not the formant shift... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 rob, frisell taught me that the "ee" and "oo" vowel are head voice ramp building vowels. he explains that those two vowels use the largest percentage of head voice musculature participation. using those vowels has enabled me to really transition through the passagio without calling in the chest voice musculature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 27, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 27, 2012 Ok Bob, I can see how those vowels shove your voice into a very early bridging requirement and perhaps from a strength and coordination building perspective, there is some value there, like walking across the gym and working your biceps with cables instead of dumb bells, however, for me its quite clunky and impractical to the application of singing compared to open vowels. I am never going to bridge in an "ee" or "oo" in performance mode. I guess I should never say never, but I flat out do not and have never felt an interest too. I would modify those vowels to more responsive open postures with diphthongs and get a much better response in performance mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VideoHere Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 rob, these are just workouts to help strenghthen the head voice and teach the voice to disassociate itself with the chest voice musculature till it builds up enough to mate with it later. frisell believes the core chest voice is inherantly overused and the head voice rarely used or intentionally strengthened. so he's saying put your chest voice musculature on hold and build up strength in the head voice musculature first. but then once that is accomplished, meld the two together with swelling exercises. it's really fabulous and not often used, but it's working for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfoot Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Robert - question for you please - If the 'EE' and 'OO' vowels aren't going to be used in the passagio (please correct me if you meant something else by your last post!).. Then how would one start, for example, the first line of 'Whole Lotta Love'.. Coz it's right in the spot (for me) where I'm neither in chest nor a strong enough head voice.. Plant doesn't even modify the 'oo' vowel to anything else in the first word.. I'm just trying to understand the match between the exercises, and how it actually translates into singing. thanks \m/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 28, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 28, 2012 Rob, would that be the case even if you were singing something really light and mellow? Good question, no, not necessarily. If the phonation were light mass, the closed vowels can work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 28, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 28, 2012 rob, these are just workouts to help strenghthen the head voice and teach the voice to disassociate itself with the chest voice musculature till it builds up enough to mate with it later. frisell believes the core chest voice is inherantly overused and the head voice rarely used or intentionally strengthened. so he's saying put your chest voice musculature on hold and build up strength in the head voice musculature first. but then once that is accomplished, meld the two together with swelling exercises. it's really fabulous and not often used, but it's working for me. Exactly as I was seeing it Bob,,, they seem to be used to build strength and coordination... to "teach disassociation" with chest resonance musculature... that totally makes sense to me. But application to performance mode becomes a different story. Most of what i hear about Frisell seems to make sense to me and my experience, but I have not read his book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 28, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 28, 2012 Robert - question for you please - If the 'EE' and 'OO' vowels aren't going to be used in the passagio (please correct me if you meant something else by your last post!).. Then how would one start, for example, the first line of 'Whole Lotta Love'.. Coz it's right in the spot (for me) where I'm neither in chest nor a strong enough head voice.. Plant doesn't even modify the 'oo' vowel to anything else in the first word.. I'm just trying to understand the match between the exercises, and how it actually translates into singing. thanks \m/ Bigfoot, you need to provide a link so I know what you talking about. But Im willing to guess its just a vowel modification case study again... I think what we are saying is if the mass is heavier than an ultra light mass phonantions, you may benefit better if you use open vowels with diphthongs on the passaggio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfoot Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Here you go rob - The opening 2 lines are what I'm referring to.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfoot Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It sounds like a belt.. but It hurts to hit this in Chest.. and In head the 'rasp' or chesty quality is missing.. and there doesn't seem to be a vowel mod happening.. hence my question.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Robert Lunte Posted February 28, 2012 Administrator Share Posted February 28, 2012 BIGFOOT... i need you to send me a link of you doing it, not Robert Plant! but again, you probably just need to modify the vowel and toss it to a covered position ... a link please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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