Concious or unconcious support? Proof?

[jonpall]

Hi guys,

Please read this post carefully before answering so you'll understand the question. Otherwise I fear we'll go back in the same old discussion about SLS versus the pillars or something

Now,

If you want to sing soft songs, you don't really have to think that much about breath support, i.e. contraction in your lower abs. You think about the sound you want, relax on your inhale, keep good posture, and your larynx kind of tells the low abs how much air is needed.

But for singing hard rock or metal, in particular songs that have high notes (say, between E4 and E5) and/or grit, I've heard that you need to contract your low abs harder.

I'm wondering, for the latter type of vocals, should you still support unconciously (i.e. simply think of the awesome distorted high note you want and your low abs will unconciously provide the right amount of contractions), or do you have to conciously think about contracting your low abs?

I know that you can find top level vocal instructors who will disagree on this subject, so I thought that maybe someone here could give us a simple exercise or a test that proves that either of those methods is better for hard rock and metal than the other. Something along the lines of "Do this and that (whatever that may be). Now, can you feel how that hurt your throat? Next time, let's try something a bit different... bla, bla (shows the better method). Could you feel how much more relaxed your throat was this time? THIS is the way to sing heavy metal, my son!"

Regards,

jonpall.

[markgrubb@gmail.com]

There was a pretty long thread on this on The Voice Council. Some voices I really respect gave expressed they support opposite what CVT or Lisa Popeil teaches.

My understanding of support is it is like balancing on a bicycle in that when you are learning or trying something new then you may be really concentrating to maintain balance. However, once you have more experience you may exert significant effort, but less concentration is required do to muscle memory. On the inhale not only are you relaxing, but are you not placing the pitch (setting up for the resonance placement).

CVT teaches the area near the sternum pops out and the area around the naval moves in to flatten out, the muscles in the back and lower back tighten and your butt tucks a little under you. A visualization meaningful to some voices is to think of 'blowing up a balloon'. If the area around the naval goes in but is hard while supporting then this is ineffective and termed 'false support'. If the area around the naval goes out while supporting then CVT terms this improper support (this is where many great voices will disagree).

Remember support is about controlling the diaphragm (holding it down to prevent it rising and forcing air out of ones lungs). Support is about diaphragmatic breathing. I mention this simply because tightening your abdominal muscles tighter does not result in greater support. I can flex my abdominal muscles and cause problems / interference with my singing. Abdominal muscles play an important role in support, but simply tightening your abdominals tighter does not result in greater support.

When I used a bottom up phonation (sing from the throat), I tried to push the pitches up and squeezed my abdominals to help. I later learned to use top down phonation and no longer sing from my throat, no longer push pitches up, no longer squeeze and strain my abdominals and other muscles.

Lastly, I will add CVT specifically cautions against 'lavatory support' and points out it is often the cause of hernia (of the diaphragm I think). In the Zen of Screaming, Melissa Cross promotes 'the dump' or the 'lavatory support' CVT specifically cautions against.

Here is the experiment - while blowing up a balloon in front of a mirror (wearing no shirt or a shirt that you can see movement between your pelvis and neck). NOTE: the direction of the area just below your sternum and the area around your naval. Also note the muscles in your upper back 'wings' and center lower back tighten.

My experience parallels proper support as taught by CVT, Lisa Popeil and others; furthermore, I will suggest when greater support is required, proper support doesn't change, you just add more.

More effort? - yes

More energy - yes

Different set up / configuration - no

[analog]

Great post Mark!

[Martin H]

I just want to add that don't forget support is a movement! When there's no movement there's no support :)

[markgrubb@gmail.com]

I just want to add that don't forget support is a movement! When there's no movement there's no support

This is very important and a key point I was missing in the past. I used to tighten my abdominals tighter and tighter thinking that surely greater effort would result in greater support. I treated singing like lifting weights, if it wasn't working just add more effort / try harder / muscle through, but I am learning to 'finesse' NOT to 'muscle'. I thought when Robert said, 'we train vocal athletes' he meant we add more muscle than everyone else and that is what makes us elite, but I later learned 'athlete' read gymnast NOT power lifter.

[joshual]

This is very important and a key point I was missing in the past. I used to tighten my abdominals tighter and tighter thinking that surely greater effort would result in greater support. I treated singing like lifting weights, if it wasn't working just add more effort / try harder / muscle through, but I am learning to 'finesse' NOT to 'muscle'. I thought when Robert said, 'we train vocal athletes' he meant we add more muscle than everyone else and that is what makes us elite, but I later learned 'athlete' read gymnast NOT power lifter.

Ho my god, thanxs for those unvaluable advices, i've just realize that wen i need more support i was making no movement, i i thightened too much without really creating some movement....

A really big thanxs!!! :D

[Matt]

I agree, the movement comment was very important.

[Robert Lunte]

If I may, support should ultimately be practiced to the point where you are not contientious of it. Proper, balanced support for singing happens in the unconscious realm of the mind when mastered. No, you are not thinking about it when your singing exteme genre's of music like rock, it happens automatically. You dont have time to be thinking, "ok, breath, ok exhale"... there are other things like bridging and laryngeal configurations a singer must focus on that are more taxing to execute.

Hope this answers your question.

r

[jonpall]

Thanks Robert. Thank you all. Good responses.

[joshual]

I realize that support is really different for a lot of people. Some have it naturally, and some (like me, what i call the 'emotional singers') have to really care about it to avoid straining and bad habits. It's the same for blending chest/head some have it easily and some struggle a lot with it ( like me again lol )

Yesterday, i really focused on the movement, instead of doing what i use to do, tightening the abs ( thing i've read a lot if time for rock singing). And sure everthing come really more natural. But i think it will take a long before it becomes natural.

[Freddie]

I guess I am one of those 'emotional singers' . Ive read all about support and how it has to be a movement and such. I know I flex my abs and force too much but I do not know how to get rid of it. Ok some of you may say that well its just like blowing out a cake thats all it takes and watch for movement etc. But how do I actually get rid of these bad habits....I do not even know If i see a movement when doing a hissing sound?

[jonpall]

Freddie, I think a good way would be to get yourself a good training routine and follow it for a few months to get rid of those bad habits. You need to get the good habits into your muscle memory by constant repetition.

[Freddie]

Then I just have to find a good training routine...and that is just my problem...I do not know where to start.

[VideoHere]

Then I just have to find a good training routine...and that is just my problem...I do not know where to start.

if you can't do voice lessons, there are a great many books you can read which also come with practice exercises.

[jonpall]

Still, nobody really answered the last part of my question, which I feel is the most important one. Let me re-phrase it:

Can anyone show us an exercise or an experiment, that everyone can do, to prove to themselves that it's better to think conciously about support (i.e. a "downwards push" (with your low abs) and/or keeping your ribs expanded), than just letting it happen unconciously (i.e. letting your larynx tell your diaphragm/abs how much air is needed for each note)?

If someone could do that, we could stop bickering about support forever ;)

[Mr Bounce]

As a novice I find it almost a constant effort to resist the exhalation with the breathing muscles rather than the throat. I am jealous of those who treat "support" like it's not important, because they are so talented that they can't even remember when they used to struggle! :D

[Steven Fraser]

Still, nobody really answered the last part of my question, which I feel is the most important one. Let me re-phrase it:

Can anyone show us an exercise or an experiment, that everyone can do, to prove to themselves that it's better to think conciously about support (i.e. a "downwards push" (with your low abs) and/or keeping your ribs expanded), than just letting it happen unconciously (i.e. letting your larynx tell your diaphragm/abs how much air is needed for each note)?

If someone could do that, we could stop bickering about support forever

Jonpall: Its a great question, but approaching an answer is problematic for multiple reasons. Of them, I think the most problematic is your combined requirement that 1) the exercise or experiment be do-able by everyone, 2) that it be done both consciously and unconsciously, and 3) no defined parameters as to what constitutes 'better'.

However, it is possible to consider a mini 'case study', a thought experiment...

For the singer who has developed the habits of proper support to the point that they are completely automatic, 'doing support consciously' will be to focus attention to something that is completely unknown, or at least, a remote memory. This will be an upset to the technique, and a distraction to the singer.

For the singer who has not yet developed the habits of proper support to the point of automatic, 'doing support unconsciously' will be impossible, because what happens unconsciously for them is not yet as desired. In other words, their singing is better when they are 'doing' their support as to when they are 'not' doing.

Speaking as teacher for a moment, every student comes to the studio with voice-use habits built up over the course of their life, and with some goals about what kind of singing they would like to do. Very often, the habits get in the way of the goals. So, the teacher works with the student to replace the restricting habits with others which will facilitate the accomplishment of the goals.

Key among these habits is the interwoven relationship during phonation of 1) intrinsic laryngeal muscle action and 2) exhalation force. For the singer who has already got this relationship well-in-hand, 'support' is already sufficient. In my experience, beginning students of this description are rare. The typical beginning student (of my experience) has issues here... imbalances of muscle action, which are restricting accomplishment of the vocal goals. For them, there is no option but to be deliberate in some fashion about their support.

'Deliberate' does not, however, mean necessarily direct or manipulative. There are ways to indirectly teach support which are drawn from speech habits and other human experiences which prompt the body to respond correctively, without having to try something like 'press down with your abdominal muscles'. During instruction, the teacher works to find the approach which is most appropriate for the individual student, based on the kind of singing that the student wants to do.

[jonpall]

Well, Steven, I just came up with an idea that COULD possibly prove that a concious support is sometimes necessary (which contradicts the SLS way that as far as breathing goes, you should only focus on the inhale and the larynx will tell the diaphragm how much pressure to exert by chord closure). Here's the experiment (for males, at least):

Sing some scale that goes up to E5 with lots of volume. You can't reach that high E5, or even a few notes below, without supporting pretty hard. Well, not unless you lower the volume significantly for those highest notes.

So, at some point when the pitch and volume become very high, you definitely need that support. But for songs in the middle range, a lot less, I guess.

I realized this while trying to sing "Sweet child o' mine". It goes up to Eb5 and I always had to lower the volume for that note - until I tried to push downwards with my support a bit harder once and, voila - then it was very, very doable.

[Steven Fraser]

Well, Steven, I just came up with an idea that COULD possibly prove that a concious support is sometimes necessary (which contradicts the SLS way that as far as breathing goes, you should only focus on the inhale and the larynx will tell the diaphragm how much pressure to exert by chord closure). Here's the experiment (for males, at least):

Sing some scale that goes up to E5 with lots of volume. You can't reach that high E5, or even a few notes below, without supporting pretty hard. Well, not unless you lower the volume significantly for those highest notes.

So, at some point when the pitch and volume become very high, you definitely need that support. But for songs in the middle range, a lot less, I guess.

I realized this while trying to sing "Sweet child o' mine". It goes up to Eb5 and I always had to lower the volume for that note - until I tried to push downwards with my support a bit harder once and, voila - then it was very, very doable.

jonpall: Sounds like you have made a discovery. Congrats.

Based on your comments, I'd like to make something a bit clearer. The sense that support has to be 'done' at any given place in the vocal range depends on existing habits of muscle action. If those habits are to the point that the breath energy matches what is needed at the level of the larynx, whatever the range, the singer will feel the balance.

IMO, what you have discovered is a region of your voice where you do not have the habitual balance established. Formerly, you were undersupporting, that is, allowing too much air flow to reach the larynx for the pitch/volume combination. By doing it deliberately (that is, by your 'push downward') you activated the diaphragm to resist some of the exhalation force, which brought you back into balance.

By way of explanation, the SLS emphasis on the inhale is another, indirect way to achieve support. Its a very old approch to stimulate the diaphragm to stay active while the note is produced, and is especially effective when combined with the 'noble' posture of the high, expanded chest. When singing is done in this fashion, a great deal of the forces which cause overpressure are removed, and the subtle balance of breath and muscle action (what the Italians called the 'Appoggio' ) is sensed.

Whether a singer does it deliberately, or sets up the circumstances to do it automatically, its all technique to manage the breath energy for the note/volume combination.

[jonpall]

Steven, then you kind of disproved my hypothesis, right? You're saying that it's possible to sing an E5 note by only thinking about the inhale part of breathing (basically, stomach goes out while being relaxed and your shoulders are down) and, during the exhale part, you don't have to conciously press hard downwards with your support, but rather just "think of the sound you want" and then the larynx will tell the diaphragm just the right amount of air it should apply, in this case automatically and pretty much unconciously press down a bit harder (without you having to press down and tighten your low abs conciously).

You see, I thought that for those REALLY high notes, letting your low abs contract unconciously like that, just isn't enough because you'd have to contract them so extremely hard. Of course, I'm talking about relative beginners at this stuff and not about pros who do this without thinking.

Am I correct here? If that's the case, then one doesn't really have to go beyond the breathing that's being taught in SLS (and in Mark Baxter's "The rock 'n' roll singer's survival manual) of the larynx always telling the diaphragm what to do and not vice versa, for extreme singing such as rock and metal.

[Steven Fraser]

Steven, then you kind of disproved my hypothesis, right? You're saying that it's possible to sing an E5 note by only thinking about the inhale part of breathing (basically, stomach goes out while being relaxed and your shoulders are down) and, during the exhale part, you don't have to conciously press hard downwards with your support, but rather just "think of the sound you want" and then the larynx will tell the diaphragm just the right amount of air it should apply, in this case automatically and pretty much unconciously press down a bit harder (without you having to press down and tighten your low abs conciously).

You see, I thought that for those REALLY high notes, letting your low abs contract unconciously like that, just isn't enough because you'd have to contract them so extremely hard. Of course, I'm talking about relative beginners at this stuff and not about pros who do this without thinking.

Am I correct here? If that's the case, then one doesn't really have to go beyond the breathing that's being taught in SLS (and in Mark Baxter's "The rock 'n' roll singer's survival manual) of the larynx always telling the diaphragm what to do and not vice versa, for extreme singing such as rock and metal.

Jonpall: I think your last summary is correct, provided that a singer has practiced the technique of supporting this way until it has become habitual. The issue for any singer, newbie or pro, is getting the balance right... doing just the right amount of the right work to get in the zone. Any action, done deliberately, has the risk of being overdone... too much.

The natural reflex when desiring to make a loud, high note is for the abdominals to contract in and up to provide breath energy for the tone. For many singers, especially males, this energy provided is too much for the small laryngeal musculature to resist for long. One of three things results: 1) the voice cracks entirely, 2) the tone cracks to breathy, or 3) registration and adduction forces increase to resist the breath energy. This last reaction results in oversinging, as the extra muscular action prevents the smooth adjustment of the muscles which is required for dynamic control and smooth passaggio transitions.

If you are using strong, downward muscular contractions in your abdomen to support your top loud notes, you may have too much of the 'in and up' reflex happening, and having to manage it the way you are. What really matters is the breath energy at the level of the larynx, which results from the combination of the two. You can achieve the very same level of breath energy at the larynx by reducing both the actions of the reflex and the support.

[VideoHere]

I just want to add that don't forget support is a movement! When there's no movement there's no support

martin, would you take a moment to explain this for me?

[jonpall]

Hmm.... Steven I HAVE noticed that sometimes when I'm experimenting with the type of support where you mostly just focus on keeping your ribs expanded, that the abs seem to kind of "know" how hard to contract. They probably contract as hard as it takes to keep the ribs in the same position, no more and no less. And this contraction has to be pretty hard for a relatively loud E5 notes. Does this make sense?

VIDEOHERE, Martin is referring to the CVT book which advocates that, during a sung note, the solar plexus moves out and the abs in, in a slow, controlled manner. If this motion stops, according to CVT your support is lost. I don't think any vocal coach would object to that, although different coaches seem to have different and favorite methods to describe this same action.

[VideoHere]

Hmm.... Steven I HAVE noticed that sometimes when I'm experimenting with the type of support where you mostly just focus on keeping your ribs expanded, that the abs seem to kind of "know" how hard to contract. They probably contract as hard as it takes to keep the ribs in the same position, no more and no less. And this contraction has to be pretty hard for a relatively loud E5 notes. Does this make sense?

VIDEOHERE, Martin is referring to the CVT book which advocates that, during a sung note, the solar plexus moves out and the abs in, in a slow, controlled manner. If this motion stops, according to CVT your support is lost. I don't think any vocal coach would object to that, although different coaches seem to have different and favorite methods to describe this same action.

folks, i really wish there was another synonym for "support" perhaps regulated compression?

i think the whole skill and trick is to be able to regulate or balance it without tensing the throat depending on the note, the song, the volume, effect etc.

a lot of this has to do with the song, desired effect, lyrics where the vowels are located, etc.

here's a cool link i found on bel canto which has an awesome breathing exercise.

[VideoHere]

forgot the link

http://myseriestv.com/videopg

there's 8 lessons and one hell of a breathing exercise!