2 songs, same range - I can only sing one of them without cracking. ?

[jonpall]

Why do you think I seem to be able to sing one song fairly well and then NOT another one even though it's in the same note range? Note that this does not happen at home, only at rehearsals.

I can sing Whole lotta love by Led Zeppelin fairly well (note that that's a huge improvement for me because just a few months ago, I didn't dare to sing over G4). The highest note is a B4 (although there's an occasional scream that goes a bit over that). Then I try singing the song Cryin' by Aerosmith and my voice breaks way too often. And for Cryin', the highest note is a B4 as well (up until a bit later in the song where there's a D5 and an E5). Even though I sing both songs without distortion, it doesn't change anything.

Maybe I'm trying to change the sound somehow, using the wrong muscles with force, immedially when I hear myself coming out of the P.A. when I sing Cryin', but not so much with Whole lotta love. Could that be the case?

Could anyone give me any hints and/or tips as to what might be my problem? And most importantly, how can I fix it - for the rehearsals? It's so much different from singing at home without a mic.

Regards,

jonpall.

[jonpall]

Just a quick thought - I'm afraid that replying "you need more chord closure, you need more support, more twang, less volume..." etc. will not help me. I already know all these things. I can sing both songs at home. Just not during rehearsals So I'm looking for ways to fix this for the rehearsals and trying to figure out why this is happening to me.

[Steven Fraser]

Just a quick thought - I'm afraid that replying "you need more chord closure, you need more support, more twang, less volume..." etc. will not help me. I already know all these things. I can sing both songs at home. Just not during rehearsals So I'm looking for ways to fix this for the rehearsals and trying to figure out why this is happening to me.

Jonpall: If it happens in rehearsals, but not at home, then it may be helpful to think a bit about what is going on in rehearsals that causes differences in your singing, even if they are subtle. For example,

- Do you practice at home with a mic and backing tracks, so that you have to 'sing over' ambient sound in the room? Can you hear yourself with the monitors you are using in rehearsal?

- Check out posture and motions that you use in rehearsal that you do not do at home. For example, when you sing at home, do you 'hold'and gesture with the mic like you do in rehearsal, or, at rehearsal, do you sit on a speaker case?

- Are there people smoking at the rehearsal? How is the temperature and humidity of the rehearsal space?

- At rehearsal, do you talk a lot between songs, or 'work' sections of the songs repetitively?

- At rehearsal, are there other people around that distract, or whom you are trying to impress?

Cracking can happen for any number of reasons... simple ones like distractions, your frame of mind at the moment, vocal fatigue... even subtly different head positions brought about by holding a mic, or singing into a mic on a stand. Think through them all, make recordings/video of yourself during rehearsal... and I think you will be able to determine the cause(s).

[Marcus]

I find that some singers are a lot easier than others to do songs by, even though they have the same range - and in some cases I can even go higher in one song by a certain singer but in another song, by a different singer, I struggle with tones that I usually manage really well. It may be that they prefer different vowels for high notes or notes they hold on to, or it may just be the "sound" that's really tricky to get. An example: "Down To My Last" by Alter Bridge - no problem at all, "The Wicker Man" by Iron Maiden - a real bitch for my voice. This holds true for a lot of singers that I know.

And even if I can manage both songs at home, under good circumstances, the difference may be a little to great to cope with to do it perfectly every time in rehearsals. Ofcourse practice makes perfect, and nothing is impossible!

At rehearsals you can't really rest your voice in between songs as you can if you practice at home. And maybe it's more problematic to do the first song, and then switch to the second one because your voice is set into the sound of the first one, so to speak. Maybe you can do a quick excercise between the songs to make yourself ready for singing the one that troubles you.

If you can't hear yourself properly there's a danger to "oversing" and strain, sometimes the band plays one song a lot louder than other songs. Have this in mind, and strive to have enough volume for your vocals in the monitors. Also good microphone technique can help you with hearing yourself better.

When you sing for yourself it's easier to just let go, but when there's other around you you so want to do a good job with the song that you tense up. Try to not think about it as hard - you manage it at home, right? So just let go in rehearsals the same way that you do at home. Fool around with it if you must. For me this took quite a while to get down, because I'm one of thoe persons that want to do things perfect. But when you stop thinking about doing things perfect, and just go with the flow, things sound so much better!

Hope any of this helps!

[markgrubb@gmail.com]

Perhaps your voice is fatiqued from song 1 when you get to song 2. Try reversing the order in rehersal as an experiment.

Check your head position (should not be craining forward), make sure your chest / sternum is not collapsing, and make sure your weight is NOT on your heels. If you are performing in rehearsal then perhaps you are trying to sing while in poor posture. However extravagant your performance, your voice requires proper posture while singing (same for breathing, run around all you want, but your voice requires proper support during singing).

Cradle the microphone, make sure you are not wrapping your hand around the barrel of the mic as this may lead to tension creep.

Practice with a microphone, XLR female to TRS male cable, and a guitar amp for a cheap PA at home. Holding a microphone up requires your arm muscles to work and if you are not used to it then you may be getting tension creep as you fatique.

Make sure you hear yourself clearly in your in-ears or wedge. Make sure the mix is dry as wet vocals (with effects / reverb / delay / ...) can cause you to sing off pitch. At rehearsal you are trying to hear yourself in the midst of stage noise, at home you it is just you. If you don't hear yourself clearly through your in-ears or wedge then all kinds of things can happen to your voice.

I think pitches that are right on the passaggio are the most difficult (a pitch being high in your range is less a factor than the pitch falling right in your passaggio between chest and head or head and flageolet register. This is to include a few semi-tones up and down or more generally the few notes that around your passaggio.)

[VideoHere]

i'm gonna venture a guess... zep is more falsetto aero more head chesty?

[jonpall]

Thanks, all. I'll experiment with all these ideas and more.

[jonpall]

After using your suggestions, here's what I did yesterday:

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/19935390/New_Cryin.mp3

I hope you can try to listen past the poor mic quality and reverb. You didn't hear the "before" take, which was awful, but at least this time I did a bit better, although it's far away from perfect. Note that I made no attempt, this time, to add distortion to the sound. Any comments would be nice.

I think the most important thing what I did was this: I sung lines alternately into the mic and then not into the mic, trying to get the same feeling.

[joshual]

One trick that helps me:

When i'm working on songs i always record myself to see the results and have better control on my voice.

Just take some good headphones and when singing with a karaoke track cranck up the volume of the band track until you didn't hear yourself good and record.

This way you can most get the feeling of your singing and mental imagery than hearing yourself in top condition ( thing you never have on stage lol))

[chele1000]

First I have to say that your specimen sounds great. I think you and I have a similar problem. We are focusing too much on how it 'sounds' rather than trying to get the feel of the song and just singing it. The talent is there and we just need to relax and just sing. Are you looking at yourself in the mirror when singing? If not, you should. See how you are standing and if you're stretching your neck more for this song than the other one. There's nothing like video while singing live to show us what we are doing....or not doing...while performing! Very humbling.....

Having said that, Mr. Steve Tyler has a sound of his own and has had years to master it. Same for Robert Plant...although Plant is more of a straight forward singer/sound.

I am going to recommend you focus on the song and the meaning of the song. Relate it to your own life and think about that while you are singing it. The result should be some relaxation and should make the song easier to deliver. Let Joshual come out.

Once you are comfortable with that, you can experiment on how you want it to sound for effects purposes.

Happy Holidays!

Michele

[chele1000]

Let the Jonpall come out is what I meant to type! sorry!

Michele

[jonpall]

Thanks for the kind and helpful words, Michele. Merry christmas.

[Steven Fraser]

After using your suggestions, here's what I did yesterday:

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/19935390/New_Cryin.mp3

I hope you can try to listen past the poor mic quality and reverb. You didn't hear the "before" take, which was awful, but at least this time I did a bit better, although it's far away from perfect. Note that I made no attempt, this time, to add distortion to the sound. Any comments would be nice.

Jonpall: Its cool to hear you without the backing track... very easy to hear what you are doing.

Listening carefully, I hear quite a bit of vocal power, which I like, and one thing I want to point out that can be improved to increase your endurance and vocal stamina with a little attention: the start of the first note in phrases

To my ear, these sound a little rough, almost like you may be closing your glottis and popping open, or perhaps with just a very short glottal grind being used before the real pitch of the note. Sorry I cannot be more specific about how you are producing it. My subjective impression is that you are beginning the phrases with quite a bit of 'energetic abandon', which I am enjoying. However, I can suggest a very direct, easy exercise to improve the coordination of the beginning of a note so that there is less wear and tear: the practice of 'onsets'.

By way of background, 'Onset' is the term used for the beginning or start of phonation, at whatever dynamic level it may occur. Onsets are divided into three categories, based on the timing of breath energy with the closing of the glottis, as follows.

1) aspirate, or breathy. The exhalation starts before the glottis is closed, causing a more-or-less audible 'h' at the beginning of the note.

2) hard, or 'popped' The glottis is fully closed, and then breath energy is applied, causing a sudden start to phonation with an initial transient (the pop) before settling down to steady-state phonation

3) Coordinated. The timing of the exhalation and glottal closure coincide.

The exercise is nothing more than a series of short notes, sung in repetition on the same pitch and vowel, followed by 1 long note on the same pitch and vowel. IMO, the best place to start the exercise is in the mid-range, at a firm-but-easy volume, and on the 'ay' vowel. The singer not only produces the sounds, but listens and feels how the timing is occuring.

Once a coordinated timing is achieved, the singer than can extend the exercise in multiple ways. A way I suggest as very beneficial for you particularly is to do the same exercise both softer and louder, that is, the whole exercise softer, then repeated louder, and finally, during the series of notes, to do a crescendo and/decrescendo... changing the volume on successive notes.

With just a little practice, I think you will become more sensitive to the 'just right' onset for you... what it feels like to be right, and not. With those sensations in mind, then go back to the song, pick a phrase starting note and vowel, and sing the onset exercise on it. I think you will be surprised now attention to this small detail will make the entire phrases easier to accomplish, less strain to sustain, and with more a sense of expressive control.

[markgrubb@gmail.com]

Thank you Steven!

[Robert Lunte]

Wow, everyone has great posts here... i think everyone has the basic idea though... what is going on in rehearsal that is different then home? Well, I would venture to guess right off the cuff that its a LOT LOUDER... right? At home you have a controlled envrionment, at rehearsal your guitarist is playing too loud because your drummer is hitting too hard and when you try to turn up your PA in the rehearsal room, you get feedback ... so its a catch 22 game ... and in the end... your nice balanced singing voice phonations degrade into hollering so you can hear yourself. Add to that, Mark's point... you are coming off a bunch of chokey, belty songs, ... one right after the other... your getting grippy and your killing your ability to sing open and with finese'... did I pretty much sum it up? Am I wrong? Something like that?... ok... so lets fix it.

1). Get the TC-Helicon Create Pedal and the Compression pedal... compression is going to help you with your live environment.

2). Get in-ear monitors so you can hear yourself and can start singing again and stop hollering.

3). Replace your squirrely SHURE SM58 and get the new RODE M1 microphone that is built to handle live, nosiy environments and has anti-feedback technology in it so you can turn up your pre-ams (the pedals from TCH) without the PA feeding back.

4). Tell your guitarist to turn down!

5). Warm up before you rehearse... lift the voice, do the resonant tracking and get out of the throat... get into top down phonation and out of bottom up phonation from the throat... .if you dont do this before you rehearse, you have lost the battle before you have even started.

Hope this helps...

[chele1000]

HI,

Rob makes very good points....and Steve is a wealth of knowledge. Steve...do you have any examples of these exercises?

This exercise is for improving what? This is from my Opera teacher - Sharon DeWolfe and played on the piano by her son Laine DeWolfe.

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/19934981/09_Middle_C_High_C.m4a

Thanks,

Michele

[jonpall]

Thanks Robert. I'm definitely going to check out these products as soon as when I get some cash. And perhaps your course as well. Too bad that won't happen until after 1 or 2 months.

Steven, could you tell me which words you hear these rough phrase starts? Where exactly is it?

I think that would really help, because I listen to the clip again and didn't really hear it (although I heard lots of other mistakes).

I might put up a newer, better clip that I did home today, when I get the time.

[Steven Fraser]

Steven, could you tell me which words you hear these rough phrase starts? Where exactly is it?

I think that would really help, because I listen to the clip again and didn't really hear it (although I heard lots of other mistakes).

Jonpall: I'll give it another listen tomorrow, and point out the ones where its most prominent.

[jonpall]

Jonpall: I'll give it another listen tomorrow, and point out the ones where its most prominent.

Thank you Steven.

Maybe you could also check a more recent recording I made at home (same song):

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20019283/Cryin__home_.mp3

I think this take is a bit better.

Again, note that I make no attempt, this time, to include distortion in my tone, like Steven Tyler does. At this point I'm mostly interested in knowing if you guys think I have any business singing tenor-like stuff like this (the highest note there is a B4). I'm not sure, even if I added distortion, that I could sing Aerosmith songs with conviction, but do you guys see/hear a future for me in singing some rock tenor stuff?

(Previously I've posted another example here - http://www.punbb-hosting.com/forums/themodernvocalist/viewtopic.php?id=453, where you, Steven, mentioned the same things, beginning of words (and convey the emotion of the lyrics better), so that's another example.)

Btw. do you think it sounds like I'm a tenor or a baritone (not that that matters that much)? I deliberately don't use vibrato that much, because it's not there, originally, and I don't try to darken the tone like an opera singer would, so I don't know if you have enough info to guess if I'm a tenor or not.

Sorry for asking for so much

Cheers,

jonpall.

[Matt]

Sounds good to me.

[Steven Fraser]

Maybe you could also check a more recent recording I made at home (same song):

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20019283/Cryin__home_.mp3

I think this take is a bit better.

Jonpall: To my ear, the onsets in this recording (above) are very much cleaner than the original you posted. Congrats! The releases are _WAY_ better. yahoo!

There are still a few onsets that need just a bit of attentionto be completely clean. I think its the notes where a voiced consonant begins the phrase, i.e., any time you have a word after a breath that begins with an N, M, D, L, voiced Th, followed by a vowel, that are candidates:

Now I'm....

or

Do what you ...

or

Love wasn't...

or

That kind of...

For sounds such as these, I have a single, easily-implemented suggestion: Be sure that you are voicing these consonants on the pitch of the following vowel. I think with a small amount of attention these will improve very much.

I also noticed that some notes which start with the initial vowel of a dipthong (as in the words 'Your' and 'I' where they begin phrases) have just a bit of the same effect as the voiced consonants. To practice this, (In the case of 'Your'), try a few onsets where you sustain the initial vowel (the Y) whatever shade you like, for a few seconds... then allow the glide to happen to the 2nd vowel. Yes, it will feel strange, but the simple act of sustaining the first vowel will draw your attention to its pitch.

That should be all you need to do to smooth out the beginnings of the phrases.

To put the idea into a general approach, I recommend that you 'think' the pitch of the next sound just before you sing it... for example, right as you are taking the breath before beginning the note. That small amount of attention is likely all you will need to make the onsets shape right up.

[jonpall]

Thanks so much for your extremely helpful and detailed response, Steven! One more question: Would you classify me as a baritone or a tenor? (not that it matters a whole lot, but it would be interesting to hear a more experienced singer/vocal coach's opinion on the timbre of my voice). I'm mostly interested in rock 'n' roll music although I'm getting somewhat interested in opera now, I must admit, at least to listen to it.

[chele1000]

Hi,

Agreed that the second one is great. I think you are singing comfortably in the higher range. I don't hear any strain at all. IMO...we are classified where we are comfortable. I am an Soprano but can sing in the True Soprano area without strain in some notes. I still classify myself as a Soprano.

Thanks for asking these questions as I love getting Steven's detailed responses. They are helping me as well!

I have a question for you. How would you put the distortion in your voice? Would it be with pedals? Or, are you going to try and work the resonance in there for the effect? If it is a pedal, which one would it be?

thanks jonpall.

Michele

[jonpall]

Michele, thank you very much for your kind comments.

As for adding distortion to your voice, I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest using distortion pedals. I'm still learning how to do this, especially without hurting my throat and reducing my range for a day or two afterwards.

But the most successful way for me so far, is to simply "think angry", kind of like you were imitating a villain to make a small child laugh. I think most people can make that sound if they just allow them to be a bit silly for a while and not worry about it. If you make a promise to yourself to never, ever tense your throat and regularily remind yourself not to do that, I think simply singing like you're angry brings out the distortion. If you don't like the word "angry", maybe "intense" works better for you. Also make sure to add only enough intensity to bring out that sound and NOT more, because then you start to strain. Adding more intensity, once your voice starts to distort will usually not change or improve the sound much, but it will tire your voice quickly. Also it's best not to even experiment with this stuff, ever, until you're warmed up. My 5 cents on this :)

[Steven Fraser]

This exercise is for improving what? This is from my Opera teacher - Sharon DeWolfe and played on the piano by her son Laine DeWolfe.

http://www.speedyshare.com/files/19934981/09_Middle_C_High_C.m4a

Michelle: Sorry I missed your question when you offered it.

This is what I would call a 'whole voice' exercise... one which challenges the singer to do many things well at once, sustain technique over a wide pitch range and for a duration of time. Such exercises can be used to 'inventory' current accomplishment (that is, as a measure of progress so far,) and also as exercises to coordinate/combine skills which have been worked independently.

This exercise draws together these aspects of the voice:

1) clarity of onset on an initial pitch and vowel

2) rhythmic transition to more rapid notes, sung at a specific tempo, on ascending and descending pentachords

3) clarity/accuracy of articulation of the rapid scale notes

4) accuracy of pitch on the rapid scale notes

5) registration changes over the pitch range of each transposition, and over the entire exercise

6) Accuracy of vowel formation, especially the gradual vowel modifications over the register transitions, and the selection of the most resonant vowel form on the sustained tones

7) Rhythmic accuracy and clarity of the release before each breath

8) silence and invisibility of the breathing

9) posture consistency

10) sufficiency of range

11) consistency of dynamics throughout the entire exercise

12) consistency of technique through the entire exercise

13) vocal endurance sufficient for the duration of the exercise

When this exercise is done on /i/ (ee) as demonstrated, item 6 is particularly interesting. For the female classical singer, that vowel receives the most modification when performed over the 2-octave range of this exercise. If the singer has any issues at all over the vowel form to be used in the various pitch regions, that will be revealed by this exercise. Similarly, if there are issues with item 5, registration, (i.e., breaks or awkward registration inconsistencies,) then they will be revealed as well.

IMO, its a great exercise, especially if the teacher can watch the singer the entire time, to notice the subtle signs of fatigue, strain, or demeanor should they appear.