Mental immage

[Guest]

Too late MD....I didn't listen to them!!! ;)

[Guest]

i like metnal immages, but i like them only when they are more close to the reality, like the description of 'twang', cause i know where to feel it, it is in a way a mental immage but at the same it is a fact!

i think that on the other hand, if more abstract mental immages could help to take conscience of the voice, its perfect too!

Actually in this case mental image isn't the same mental image as in forming a picture in your head to help understand something. This is more about your mental image of yourself. Self esteem, confidence, "balls." When others say you should stop you say "I don't care what you say, I will keep going." It's seeing yourself as better than others may see and having the positive attitude to push forward.

[MDEW]

Training for singing and the act of singing are two different things. When training you need to get the emotional baggage out of the way. Focus on the task at hand. We should practice and train just like any other musician does. Work on scales, intervals, Phrases. Working up and down our full range and trying to expand it.

So when the time comes it is there and we do not have to think about it while we are doing the act of singing.

For a beginner I do think that it is impotant for them to realise this.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Well, let's take it completely full circle then and address the beginner with a poor mental image. When they come here already fostering a poor self image of themselves due to poor uneducated critique by their supposed "friends" what course of action do the members here take? Is it technique driven or should they be coaxed to first sing without any inhibitions. Let go. Forget about passed critique and get ready to show us what you've got and then receive support and advice. A combination of both? Strengthen the self image and nurture it? Can mental image be the first technique to singing then?

Dont think so Tommy.

We cant really take on other peoples social/psychological disorders. Trying to cheer, or make someone feel nice, can be much more problematic on the long run than just point the truth, which in most cases is pretty obvious.

The usual question is: "is my voice good for singing". The answer that comes to my mind is yes, just like the rest of the mankind, and the search button is there for a reason, there are like 1000 threads on the same thing. But no, for one reason or another this person thinks that his case is special. What this person wants is not a precise answer, in reality, is praise for his/her "gifts".

And thats the problem right there. If someone does not kill it while its just a small embrio, the monster will grow, and become a nuclear godzilla. Believes that sound great, never did any actual trainning for it, linger on the technique forum giving "tips" and talking about some magical stuff like the mix of the mixed voice without even knowing what the exercises are supposed to do, 17 year old baritones and basses and so on. You go listen to the person singing, and not even one song comes out without gross errors, including breaks.

So no, I dont think its a usefull line of action. Its not my problem, I do not have the knowledge to address this kind of social disorder (specially over the net), and cultivating this kind of thing leads to a culture of mutual wound licking that just pulls everyone down.

What I can do is give my opinion, as in like/dont like, and use the knowledge I do have to point out a few technical issues that may be more apparent. And thats all. All I can do about such "sensible" conditions is not treating beginners as retards, everyone is capable, provided that they follow some kind of instruction to learn. If knowing that his god did not bestow uppon him the skill to it makes him sad, pray and file a complaint.

If one person out of 1000 gets the message and look for instruction before all the avoidable problems happens, Im happy. The others may eat their mics in anger for all I care, reality will not change based on happy feelings or good wishes.

[Guest]

What this person wants is not a precise answer, in reality, is praise for his/her "gifts".

I agree and I mentioned this in my original post. Most times they say they suck, or they have a cold, or whatever but like I said in my original post; if they are coming here to sing they must think they can. And they want praise.

...the search button is there for a reason, there are like 1000 threads on the same thing.

Good one! Something I point to in posts of this nature often. I think that is part of going after what you want."research." Use your brain. In this day and age there is so much information out there and even google will find people with similar problems to your own.

Good post Felipe

And I think it brings us full circle, once again. Mental image! If they have a good mental image of themselves then they would ignore whomever is giving them grief about their singing and use their brains

to research and study and persevere. Then maybe improve a little, find out how the voice works etc even possibly find a coach. All "before" coming here and asking. But it's their own "I don't care what anyone says I want to do this" (mental image) that would take them there.

[ronws]

Many people buy into tough love. I get it, I understand, how can someone fix something if you don't tell them when they have gone wrong? But what a number of people lack is how to communicate with a student in ways the lead to progress.

And I know a number of people who say they don't mind when someone says, "You stink." Even if they are telling the truth that they like it, it doesn't actually help, unless you can provide a way to fix it. A creature may, theoretically, learn something if it runs into enough negatives. Learning by finding out what you are not supposed to do. But that's not actually how psychology works for animals, which includes Man.

When a creature is presented with nothing but negatives, it shuts down. It's the only reasonable response. When all actions have resulted what is called in behavioral terms, a punishment (stimulus presented that may decrease a behavior,) the real response of most creatures is to freeze. And that is because all creatures avoid punishment. So, those that they say they like all the negative punishment of "tough love" are trying to say that they, alone, in the pantheon of mammals upon this planet, are able to negate operant conditioning, which is not actually borne out in clinical evidence.

All creatures seek reward and avoid punishment. It is an established fact.

So, what is the point of all this? Well, while we're in the midst of feeling so proud that we give tough love for the purity of the art and "for the good of the student," one must still provide a direction. Otherwise the job is half-done and totally ineffective. And one way to lead in the right direction is to reward something that was good.

I don't just say this to justify being a "cheerleader." I became a cheerleader after learning this principle. So, if we can't at least give someone a nod in the right direction, all the "tough love" in the world is not going to help. And a surfeit of tough love will result in shutdown. It is the nature of mammals.

Legitimate dog trainers have a description for a dog that is "trained" only with punishments and corrections and no directions of where to go to, by way of reward - a bite waiting to happen.

So, while we're giving tough love, we should give a little direction, too. That is, if we can get past the pride of how pure we are in our ability to give tough love. Pride, one of the seven sins, and the hardest one to stop.

So, if someone didn't like the genre of song choice, is that good tough love? Or incorrectly applied? And what is the viewpoint of the reviewer, which was the original point of this thread.

[Guest]

So, if someone didn't like the genre of song choice, is that good tough love? Or incorrectly applied? And what is the viewpoint of the reviewer, which was the original point of this thread.

Yes. I think tough love can be applied but it depends on how. As you mention the point of the thread, getting the "you suck" remarks from people who don't even know what they are supposed to be listening to is the wrong kind of tough love. Taken into a more educated environment such as here for example and given a simple answer like "that was bad" or "you need a lot of work" doesn't help anyone. But then again, I can't say I ever see that happening here.

But tough love can be a good tool if applied with accompanying advice. Like "that wasn't very good but I can hear some potential. But you need a lot of work. Why don't you try..." or "That was very bad pitch wise and you lost the melody line which made the song sound terrible. But if you try blah blah blah etc etc. it may help. Why don't you re- record and we can help you if you need it...."

But I also don't think just petting people on the head an complimenting them (when it is obviously bad) is helpful either. It's not much different than the practice these days of giving everyone a trophy, win or lose. Just so the losers don't feel bad. Where is the learning there? If something is bad it needs to be fixed. It can't be fixed unless it is brought out to the open. Then advice given. It's a two part process.

There are also training methods that first tear you down and then rebuild you. Make you feel like crap first. It build character!! So they say You know....like the marines :D

[ronws]

Tommy, for a while, there were some reviews that could be boiled down to the words, "your singing stinks and go get a vocal coach."

Although, I think, if the newbie actually takes the advice and gets a decent coach, it will be rewarding because he will likely get more response than just, "your singing stinks." And likely the coach would say, don't worry about others' words. Listen to what I am telling you because I can hear.

But what kind of coach? Some opera coaches do not teach rock singers, as a matter of purity for their art.

I should also point out that my experience with operant conditioning is support by my experience from teaching (not relating to teaching singing. I do not consider myself a vocal coach in any stretch of the imagination.)