Don't sing with the mouth

[DDisNow]

I dont agree, i think the voice is less unique then we think. most of what we call our voice is learnt, speech, singing all of it is something we learned from our parents and other sources.

we can mimic sounds to a great degree, heck honestly how many guys out there are there who can sound like axl rose? there are tons, I think the "only you have your voice" is the usual fairytale we are being fed.

I kindly (but strongly) disagree.

It's not even a matter of opinion actually. As no two people in the whole wide world are the exactly the same, neither are two voice exactly the same.

Sure, there may be similarities in tone, color, texture etc between certain voices but there's ALWAYS something different. It could be the annunciation, phrasing, accents or what not.

Each and every person does have their own unique voice.

Also ,if you think tons of people sound like Axl, you may need to clean your ears. Other people may mimic him and manipulate their voices to sound similar to Axl, but only Axl sounds like Axl. I could tell the best Axl impersonator from 100 miles away.

[Jens]

it's not about being the same... it's about sounding the same, most singers have molded their voices after other singers or sounds they like/think are sounding great.

It's a matter of opinion, heck i even think this guys is better than axl at sounding like axl ><

[ronws]

I was right, wasn't I, Validar? There are some that believe through enough mechanical manipulation one voice can be made to sound like another. Watch this, Validar. I will next ask if someone like Steve Perry can, through whatever magic pill singing system, by made to sound like, for example, Barry White? Or do the original cast role of Caiaphas (a bass) in JC, Superstar.

Can voices sound similar? Sure. There's a famous singer that I sound like, or similar to. And I do absolutely nothing to sound like him.

As for a number of guys sounding like Axl, well, it's evidently not that uncommon for a baritone to want to sing tenor and some will get uber-nasal, like Axl does, to get there. No, it won't be a carbon-copy. I've been halfway decent at spotting a sound-alike, now and then.

But that's all cool. I'll keep believing in the fairy tale, as Jens calls it, that each voice is unique. Similar to fingerprints, DNA, stuff like that.

To each, his own.

[ronws]

And that's a cool vid, Jens. I've seen him cover Iron Maiden, as well.

I would stink at trying to sound like Axl. But you have mentioned that you are a baritone, yet you can sing higher than I can. I read somewhere your top note was a C7. Anyway, I would be interested in hearing your Axl impersonation.

Actually, that would be a neat idea for a thread. For comparison, for fun. Or, it will die a quick death, like the other threads inviting everyone to do a song or songs from a band.

[Jens]

Well, all voices are unique, the fairytale is actualy you beliveing your voice (the voice you use today as being unique) thats à voice youve learned by mimicing your parents nothing more nothing less.

It's something you learned, something you copied, so in à sense your à carbon copy! The vocalfolds primary function is stopping food from getting down the windpipe, not Making sound.

If à Singer gets popular, there Will be tons of other singers sounding the same cause thats the soundideal and because our voices are great at mimicing... We have done that our entire lives.

Range has nothing to do with vocal fach, ive been all they way up to C8 but it's just à gimmick à vocal trick Anyone can learn when you Find that function.

Im à high baritone/low tenor E2-C6 is the span i would consider using live with à band.

[ronws]

And I agree with you, to a point. Jens. I sound like my mother. We are influenced by how we grew up and it offers the greatest impediment to singing, at times.

So, why is it, despite trying different techniques and years of singing that I cannot do the lead vocal part in "Shackler's Revenge"? Granted, it's a bass vocal line being sung by a basso-baritone. And I am not nor have I ever been a basso-baritone. But I should be able to sing it, right? Just like Steve Perry should be able to sing as Barry White.

How come I can't sound like Barry White?

[Jens]

There is also à physical aspect, im not denying that... But i dont think it works in the Way you would imagine

[Remylebeau]

I think I have been misinterpreted. My post wasn't to say that the diaphragm is used to exhale or like a gas pedal. I was using an example to "agree" with what I quoted from you. That the diaphragm isn't used for singing. I only used an example of a gas pedal to compare. In other words "The diaphragm is used for singing. is like saying the gas pedal is used for driving." No...it's more than that.

But with that said, although the diaphragm is used for inhalation, as you say, control of it , still remains important, at least in my opinion.

That's fair enough. Controlling it is important, but in order to avoid confusion it's important to understand that we can't physically move the diaphragm like we move our arm. Controlling it means using OTHER muscles to control it. So I guess it's kind of like how the gas pedal isn't actually an appendage on our body thus we can't directly control it. What we're really controlling is our foot.

[ronws]

It was my fault for not clearly reading Tommy's words.

My gas pedal analogy involves the abs, not the diaphragm, itself.

But that will not stop the eternal idea that one sings "from the diaphragm." Or those who think they can directly control the diaphragm. But even I get tired of debating that point. Reminds me of an Aggie joke.

An aggie is a student or alumnus of Texas A & M University. Myself, I went to University of Texas at Arlington. So, I am a Longhorn.

Anyway.

You know why the Aggie beats his head against a brick wall?

Wait for it ...

Wait for it ...

Because it feels better when he stops.

Sometimes, I am as smart as an aggie.

:D

[Validar]

I think we are slightly straying from Ron's point regarding anyone being capable of sounding like any other singer.

Certainly, the human voice is capable of versatility, and it can be expanded upon via training. But to suggest that *anyone* can push it to the point of having an endless menu of carbon copy voices they can implement at will is stretching it, I believe. It's as much an absurd thought as it is an absurd goal. Our anatomical differences are what make our voices unique.

I believe the idea of "sounds like" can be very subjective, as well.

[Jens]

Ive never suggested that Anyone can be able to sound like any other singer, basicly what im saying is our voice is not unique, not like we use it today

Youve go to have the mind and psyche and diciplin to become à great singer, i think it's more to that Than our anatomical diffrences.

[jonpall]

You can't ever sound EXACTLY like another singer. But you can get fairly close to at least conveying the same feelings as another singer if you use the same vocal mode, sound colour and vocal effect. For example, sometimes Brad Delp seems to use distortion on his high notes. If he were to use slightly MORE distortion, he would be using the same vocal configuration as Brian Johnson and therefore be conveying a similar emotion as him. It wouldn't fool anyone that it was Brian Johnson but he'd sing in a way that would fit an AC/DC song.

[ronws]

And as far as I know you have partly controll over the diaphragm.

perfect timing ....

[Remylebeau]

Hi Rachsing,

Basically the diaphragm expands when we inhale, contracts when we exhale. You can slow your exhalation (make the diaphragm contract slower) by contracting the muscles on the sides of your abdomen, right below the bottom ribs. But the diaphragm itself isn't something one controls other than by inhaling and exhaling.

[Steven Fraser]

Basically the diaphragm expands when we inhale, contracts when we exhale. You can slow your exhalation (make the diaphragm contract slower) by contracting the muscles on the sides of your abdomen, right below the bottom ribs. But the diaphragm itself isn't something one controls other than by inhaling and exhaling.

Remylebeau: I know this is off-topic, but what you have described is the epigastrum, not the diaphragm.

[VideoHere]

remylebeau, not sure if i would use the terms "contract and expand" regarding the diaphragm....i believe it's move a movement of the diaphragm descending during inhalation and rising during exhalation. for singers, the goal is to learn to control the ascent through the use of the lower core muscles.

[ronws]

Rachsing:

You have abs, you have intercostals. You cannot touch the diaphragm. And it is an autonomic muscle. You can counteract it's natural motions by means of the abs, sometimes intercostals. You do not, however, have control, or even "partial control," of the diaphragm, itself.

As far as the "perfect timing" comment, I had just written that there will be the eternal belief that one can control the diaphragm or "sing from the diaphragm" and you popped up with partial control of the diaphragm. Hence, the perfect timing of your post to illustrate my comment about the neverending allure of the idea that one can directly control the diaphragm.

You cannot directly control it. No matter how many books or articles you have read that makes one think they can.

[analog]

Here's a cool video of diaphragm:

[Steven Fraser]

Rachsing:

You have abs, you have intercostals. You cannot touch the diaphragm. And it is an autonomic muscle. You can counteract it's natural motions by means of the abs, sometimes intercostals. You do not, however, have control, or even "partial control," of the diaphragm, itself....

...As far as the "perfect timing" comment, I had just written that there will be the eternal belief that one can control the

You cannot directly control it. No matter how many books or articles you have read that makes one think they can.

ronws: I know how much you believe it, but its time to address this idea of yours, that the diaphragm cannot be controlled. I will address the mechanisms 1 step at a time.

The diaphragm can be activated autonomically, as you say, but also volitionally. You and I (and most other folks) can breathe when we want to, and our bodies will breathe (if we do not interfere) when they need to. We depend on both of these for musical phrasing, and for life.

Are we in agreement so far? If so, I will start another thread, since this topic is, well, another topic, and we can engage from there.

[Remylebeau]

VIDEOHERE, do you think analog's video has it right, or no? If so, I'd say it's an upward expansion and a downward contraction.

[Remylebeau]

Steven I believe my description is correct. The diaphragm expands and contracts (or ascends and descends if you want to call it that instead) and the muscles in your core can slow this descension or contraction somewhat. I do not believe I was describing the epigastrium rather than the diaphragm, although I can see how you might think that if you take issue with my use of the terms expansion and contraction as videohere did.

From that video analog posted the diaphragm looks like an awful lot like it's stretching upward (expanding) when we inhale and goes back down to a contracted non stretching state when we exhale. This has always been my perception of how the diaphragm works.

[Keith]

Diaphragm: A muscular membranous partition separating the abdominal and thoracic cavities and functioning in respiration.

[analog]

From that video analog posted the diaphragm looks like an awful lot like it's stretching upward (expanding) when we inhale and goes back down to a contracted non stretching state when we exhale. This has always been my perception of how the diaphragm works.

Just to be sure we're all on the same page:

In the video @ :04-:06 that is the inhale(you can see the lower ribs expanded.) Then :06-08 that is the exhale then repeat.

[Steven Fraser]

From that video analog posted the diaphragm looks like an awful lot like it's stretching upward (expanding) when we inhale and goes back down to a contracted non stretching state when we exhale. This has always been my perception of how the diaphragm works.

Remylebeau: Listen to the text of the narration beginning at :35. It describes how the diaphragm flattens during inhalation. The flattening motion is the downward motion.

Keep in mind in all this that breathing (in and out) happens as the volume of the chest changes. When the diaphragm is rising, and with the ribs dropping, the chest cavity is being made smaller... exhalation. When the ribs/sternum are rising, and the diaphragm is dropping, the chest is getting bigger... inhalation.

I hope this is helpful.

[Felipe Carvalho]

Muscles can not expand. Only contract and relax back. Thats why movement is controlled by oppository muscles.

Inhaling = Diaphragm contraction

Exhaling = Relaxation, that can be aided by the contraction of the abdominal muscles.

What can be controlled is the ballance between the diaphragm and its oppository muscles, as well as adding pressure from the abdominal, and intercostal muscles. Controlling air flow and stabilizing it despite the resistance on the airpath (of course, there are limits). The technique to achieve this is called support, and as it was said correctly, it can not be trainned by trying to directly control the diaphragm, as with any other muscle, the way to activate it is actually doing the action that it does, in this case, breathing.

Hope this helps :)