Jump to content

Vocal issues

Rate this topic


amnesiac
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi. I'm a 17 year old male whose range is roughly E2-G4. I mostly sing songs in the rock genre. (Vocal lessons are not an option due to money and time issues)

I'm pretty sure I'm not singing right. I can't hold a note for more than four seconds and my voice gets sore and tired after hitting some notes in the E4-G4 range. I breathe from my diaphragm when I sing, and none of the exercises around the internet are helping.

Also, I want to increase my range. Most of the songs I sing are in the tenor range (up to C5) and I hate it when I have to change the key. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best way to achieve this would be to find my mixed voice. There are two definitions of mixed voice I have found:

1. To create a seamless gap between chest and head voice

2. To combine chest and head voice into one voice

I'd prefer it if I could combine the chest and head voice into one voice, so I can make the higher notes as "real" as possible.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi there,

Welcome to the forum!

Regarding what's the problem with your technique, you should really record yourself singing something and post a clip.

No one can tell you what you may or may not be doing wrong from just reading your post.

Regarding mix voice, the first definition is definitely incorrect. You don't want to create a gap, you wanna get rid of that gap if it's there.

The second definition is correct, and that's the one most people of the forum here gravitate towards - The one voice ideal, where you stop thinking about "Chest, Head, Mix etc" but rather one unified balanced voice.

Post a clip and people will help you out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HAHAHA

You do not need to invest any money in singing, at all. You also do not need a vocal instruction program, that's absurd. People have been singing since the dawn of man, many great, some not. This is not determined by investment. Also remember that how fast you improve has nothing to do with the money you spend, either.

You ALSO do not need help from a forum. It can be good to get some support and whatever, but you don't need a forum. I personally use forums to motivate me to improve.

You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself.

-Galileo Galilei

Link to comment
Share on other sites

HAHAHA

You do not need to invest any money in singing, at all. You also do not need a vocal instruction program, that's absurd. People have been singing since the dawn of man, many great, some not. This is not determined by investment. Also remember that how fast you improve has nothing to do with the money you spend, either.

Agreed. I've spent about $2000 on singing lessons that got me nowhere, even though the teachers assured me they'd be able to show me how to do the mix voice. I'm getting better now and I have been helped by a book and the forums, but I'm not amazing by any means.

I think scepticism is important. There's a lot of BS in the vocal advice world. In fact I'd say there's more nonsense than sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found the free videos from rockthestagenyc on youtube pretty useful. He has quite a bit of material on the subject you asked.

Despite what some here have said, technique is important. If you want to sing gigs, knowing the difference between shouting your voice to crap and normal tension can make all the difference. Personally, pre-technique I could do 4-5 songs live before I felt the voice crapping out (and being sore as he11 the next day), and doing it right I can sing over an hour every day without trouble. My voice didn't magically become beautiful, but at least I'm not hurting, and at least I can do my bit at gigs without worrying about my voice giving out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

HAHAHA

You do not need to invest any money in singing, at all. You also do not need a vocal instruction program, that's absurd. People have been singing since the dawn of man, many great, some not. This is not determined by investment. Also remember that how fast you improve has nothing to do with the money you spend, either.

You ALSO do not need help from a forum. It can be good to get some support and whatever, but you don't need a forum. I personally use forums to motivate me to improve.

You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him find it within himself.

-Galileo Galilei

Amnesia, this is bad advise. This person couldn't be more wrong in regards to advising you to not seek professional help in your singing technique. It is very true, finding good teachers and good products for singing that get results is not easy, but if you get the right teacher and product, and take private lessons and practice, you'll sing past "lord" in about 20 minutes. It is ALL about who your teacher is and what they are teaching. You have to work with someone that really knows what they are doing and can demonstrate what they are talking about. You also need training content. A lot of products, even some of the more popular ones from companies like Estill and CVI have big pretty books that are great, but no vocal workouts. I totally don't get that? A vocal training program that offers no vocal workouts... Hmmm? So on top of finding a great teacher, find a product that also offers training content that is real and not just sound samples or only a book.

I am available to help you if you like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Agreed. I've spent about $2000 on singing lessons that got me nowhere, even though the teachers assured me they'd be able to show me how to do the mix voice. I'm getting better now and I have been helped by a book and the forums, but I'm not amazing by any means.

I think scepticism is important. There's a lot of BS in the vocal advice world. In fact I'd say there's more nonsense than sense.

Its curious.

With all other professions, when people want to be come a doctor for example, they research about the activity, consider the choices of where to get instruction, what other students say about the course, the teachers, all that. And then they decide and begin learning it, takes some years and they are graduated, even so, a lot of experience on the activity will come only after the person begin doing it.

You dont see people saying: oh since the dawn of mankind healers exist, some people actually lived after receiving treatment, you dont need medicine or to invest your money on it. Ok maybe a few do, but who would trust such a person?

But when it comes to singing, not only the idea is acceptable, as people who dont have the slightest clue of what their are saying go as far as to condem instruction based on nothing but a poor experience. That coach you went to, could he DO what you wanted to learn?

Its insane people. High level singing without technical background is not only very unlikely to happen, as it is a road to vocal suicide. You WILL trash your voice, I can assure you that.

Get trainning.Solid trainning, dont let luck or shamans determine how your singing will be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Thanks Felipe... from me and Felipe, two people that in all likelihood, know what we are talking about... Part of the problem is that the market or average consumer of vocal training services and products is utterly, completely ignorant about what vocal training is. Most just think, if you got it you got it and if you don't you don't and it can't really help... these people are trapped in a 'speech" & "belt' mode existence... its understandable why people might draw this conclusion when all they ever experience is the kind of phonations that are primitive and with us on a daily basis. (one reason why vocal mode pedagogy is so helpful... it opens up the possibilities of what you can do with your voice). The other aspect is, consumers have no idea that when you train your voice for singing, there are things called "vocalize' (workouts) that you do... you phonate over specific scales and apply techniques that build these other exotic, trained vocal modes like twang and distortion... this is apparent to me everyday as I get emails from people that are always about, "... can you help me to sing like this artist or in this style..."... It is evident that they are confused about vocal technique training and vocal coaching on songs and genre.

It is very difficult for consumers to get through to the point where they realize there is more to it then just being born with a gift or some how making your speech mode phonations produce powerful formants and configurations on G4s... then comes the task of finding the right coach...

I could go on about this, but this is pretty essential:

1). Does the coach focus on bridging registers and head voice development? If not, your wasting your time in my view and its a red flag that they really can't teach you the hard stuff and the things that you really need and want. Voice training is not about fiddling around in the chest voice all the time.

2). Is the coach able to demonstrate their own techniques? Can they demonstrate effectively? Do they sing occasionally to show application of their skills to the end game? A HUGE point of credibility.

3). Is the coach published? Have they taken the time to write blogs, articles or even produced content, wrote a book on vocal training? if so, there is a good chance, there is a level of experience and expertise that goes beyond the norm.

Notice I don't say anything about whether or not the coach has had 'celebrity' clients or not? This can have some significance, but you have to really understand the circumstance behind such claims to verify that anyone actually trained exclusively with any given coach for a meaningful period of time... most of these claims are completely exaggerated and are mostly there to impress the gullible consumers.

Hope this helps...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And just to add to the do it yourself consumers. The really good books that have the proper information in them are going to be between $85 and $200 and you have to decifer what the book is saying. A good coach or trainer will be able to explain things a whole lot better.

I just looked for some of the most quoted books on Ebay. They were an average of $70. A good skype lesson is far worth more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Thanks MDEW... these guys know what they are talking about on this forum believe me... a lot of these members posting like MDEW are experienced students of vocal training, technique and singing... you can 'gleen' some stuff here at the forum, but it never really gets you in the game... your on the sidelines if all you do is try to extract from free youtube video promos, 'teasers', and forum posts. You have to get product, get teacher, get practicing, get real. :cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amnesia, this is bad advise. This person couldn't be more wrong in regards to advising you to not seek professional help in your singing technique.

.....

....

I am available to help you if you like.

Amnesia, he's right. You should trust the guys who wants to sell you his vocal program. He must be sincere since he says you cannot do it on your own. /sarcasm

Like I said, you can get HELP, but you don't HAVE to invest anything. If anyone tells you otherwise, he/she is a sales-man, or somebody influenced by a sales man...

If somebody says 'you have to invest money to learn to sing' then tell them to **** off

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amnesia, he's right. You should trust the guys who wants to sell you his vocal program. He must be sincere since he says you cannot do it on your own. /sarcasm

Like I said, you can get HELP, but you don't HAVE to invest anything. If anyone tells you otherwise, he/she is a sales-man, or somebody influenced by a sales man...

If somebody says 'you have to invest money to learn to sing' then tell them to **** off

Amnesia: In my opinion, its the very lucky and rare singer that can get free help sufficient for them to achieve their singing goals, or to get there entirely on their own.

I hope this is helpful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never said that vocal training is useless. I said you don't need it. This is true.

Don't tell someone they need to buy shit is all.

You're right.

You don't NEED training.

UNLESS, you actually want to risk damaging your voice, and chase your own tail endlessly, very likely seeing minimal results.

I'm not sure what your qualifications are to be giving such advice, but I truly sympathize for anyone who actually follows it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why so many of you are so damn clueless.

"you're going to risk damaging your voice" is the most used catch-phrase to sell somebody into a singing program, weather or not the instructor actually knows it...

There's such a thing as common sense to avoid singing in ways that hurt or burn out your voice, and therefore avoid damage. If you lack that sense, then your voice will burn out. You also don't need training to avoid seeing minimal results. How you get to that conclusion is beyond me and is an obvious logical fallacy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, let's adress this bit by bit.

- do you need a vocal instructor ?

you will hurt your voice not necessarily

Like I said above, common sense

you will be clueless not necessarily

Help does not need to be payed for

you will not learn the right technique not necessarily

Any technique that sounds good does not hurt you voice is right

you will not sound good not necessarily

doesn't require any training obviously

you will see minimal results not necessarily

that has to do with how much you sing

you will develop your skill faster maybe, not necessarily

It can help for some people, others get stuck

conclusion: not necessary

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, let's adress this bit by bit.

- do you need a vocal instructor ?

you will hurt your voice not necessarily

Like I said above, common sense

Disagree. When I was singing by myself, common sense said to never push and strain, resulting in a very airy sound that got me hoarse after 2-3 songs and never gave me the range I wanted. This was going on for several years.

you will be clueless not necessarily

Help does not need to be payed for

Agree. However, finding someone that CAN help you and WILL do so without any monetary gains is VERY rare and should get your eternal gratitude.

you will not learn the right technique not necessarily

Any technique that sounds good does not hurt you voice is right

Again, a selftaught technique very rarely does not hurt your voice. Unless you sing very low and don't want to push your limits.

you will not sound good not necessarily

doesn't require any training obviously

Some people find a good sound, some don't. I never did, but now I'm actually starting to like my voice more and more.

you will see minimal results not necessarily

that has to do with how much you sing

Not necessarily. See good technique. I was singing for years never improving, simply since I did it wrong.

you will develop your skill faster maybe, not necessarily

It can help for some people, others get stuck

conclusion: not necessary

I believe alot more people get stuck alone, than those that get stuck with help that would go on and prosper alone.

These are my opinions, all with the assumption that your teacher is good and teaching and at the concept of singing.

Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, let's adress this bit by bit.

Help does not need to be payed for

I never said a word in regard to "paying". I spoke of training. If one can come across FREE training, wonderful. More power to them. But that usually isn't an option for the average person wanting to pursue singing. Sorry, but picking up tips here and there on the internet isn't going to cut it, and is in no way thorough "training".

I'm not even going to dignify the rest of what you said with any further response. It's that absurd.

I'm still curious as to your qualifications, however.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Amnesia, he's right. You should trust the guys who wants to sell you his vocal program. He must be sincere since he says you cannot do it on your own. /sarcasm

Like I said, you can get HELP, but you don't HAVE to invest anything. If anyone tells you otherwise, he/she is a sales-man, or somebody influenced by a sales man...

If somebody says 'you have to invest money to learn to sing' then tell them to p*ss off

If you want to take your singing career seriously and would like to get better and not go through life half-assed, then an investment in YOURSELF is what you would do. If your some hack from Eastern, WA that just wants to drink before you perform and shout in dive bars and doesn't care, then don't make an investment in yourself. IN fact, go play in the street, no one cares.

My products are essentially $169 for a digital download and $199 for a hard copy... if you go to my shopping cart, there are over 50 reviews and every one of them are 5-star reviews. Even better, if you go to amazon.com and look up my product, "The Four Pillars of Singing 2.0", you will find that out of 13 reviews from people that have purchased the product. All 13 are 5-star reviews.... So,... what does that say about the value that my clients are getting from my products and services? Are you going to argue with the people that wrote these reviews?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Four-Pillars-Singing-2-0/dp/1427633886

So ya, you don't have to better yourself if you don't want to... you can continue to take the easy path and do things in a mediocre way. You can continue to sing bad or only ok and live your life that way... But people that invest a little bit of money and a lot of time to improve their singing, have a high regard for their craft and themselves then that. Making an argument for mediocrity and not improving your craft with practice and education is embarrassing for you.

Now let's address your attitude about sales which is pretty shallow in my opinion. The clothes on your back, the car you are driving, the music that you purchase, the food you buy... everything you own has been 'sold' to you my friend. It may come as a surprise to you, but there actually are some products and services that are good... t hat people want and need. And those that are involved in sales are not evil profiteers, they are people that are trained to present to you products and services that will meet your needs, wants and desires. To "sell" something is not evil or disingenuous, as you imply.

You can choose to not believe me if you like, I really don't give a rip... but the truth of the matter is, I do this out of a passion to help singers and because its something I'm good at, that's it. Having said that, I won't apologize for offering my product and service to people who I believe would benefit from it.

Lastly, I don't like the 'vibe', I don't like being insulted as a legitimate and ethical businessman and I don't like profanity in this forum... Frankly, I don't like you. However, you are welcome to stay and participate, but if we catch anymore profanity from you, Ill pull the 'bad egg' lever on you so fast it will make your head spin and you'll be out of here... This is my forum, I manage it and I pay for it so that YOU can enjoy it.. not so you can jump on here and insult me personally and insult the intelligence of this membership. This is your only warning.

In the meantime, I think what we would like to hear from you now is your singing. Let's hear it? Let's hear you sing... post a link here so we can verify what level of credibility you have. You jump on my forum and insult me and tell people that offer products and services for singers to 'piss off"? Ok, let's hear you sing... post your link or are you all about making posts on forums with nothing to show for it?

Im sorry dude, I don't take kindly to a lot of 'noise' with nothing to show for it... that is my biggest pet peeve. You have been challenged.. now step up or shut up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

I am honestly shocked at the people here thinking that investing in vocal training is useless. Look, if you spent thousands and got nowhere, that's your fault for doing poor research and blindly following an ineffective method. Of course internet tips from all different kinds of GREAT methods are going to be better than that! I experienced that personally too after getting lessons with crappy classical coach, and then with an SLS coach, and getting no results. Then getting a lot of mysteries solved (or so I thought) through internet research.

But guess what's better than just free tips from the great methods? REAL training from a GREAT method or teacher. Again, speaking from personal experience, my real training with TVS totally blew away the super slow progress i got learning from the internet. Skepticism is important, but only in the research process.

At some point you have to face the fact that you, as an inexperienced vocal student, don't know #%* about how to really sing compared to someone who has been teaching advanced levels of the craft for a living for 5 times as long as you have even been a singer. And no, the information on the internet isn't the same as getting that experienced coaching. Why? Because everything you learn on the internet is going to be twisted and reinterpreted based on your misinformed beliefs about singing because 80% of what you learn about will be approached in polar opposite ways by different methods. The result is you coaching yourself based on your false, uncertain beliefs.

If you are self studying plus the internet, you are still your own vocal coach. Thinking outside of yourself for a minute, if you went to see a vocal coach and it was you, would you trust that coach? Hell, can that coach even SING yet? It doesn't matter how much you know about vocal technique. If you haven't learned how to apply it yet, self studying at that point is just like seeing a vocal coach who can't sing.

It's different when you're an advanced student who's already had training and can sing really well already. You actually have a foundation and then you can mess with it afterward without it collapsing. And the other half is self discipline. You would need to give yourself your own strategy of something to practice regularly. Experience with great vocal instruction will teach you the importance of that.

I could tell you to just search real hard and look for where the BS is and isn't in the singing community through trial and error. Or I could just refer you to Rob and you could take my word for it. I'd been through two methods before it, and I started out with virtually no vocal talent besides pitch control, and now my performing voice range is like...E2-C#5...and even wider if I'm well warmed up and in great vocal health. It still needs refinement but it is WAY closer to being totally reliable than when I was studying from the internet only. I couldn't even get past Bb4 then, let alone actually get through a song with a lot of notes around that range. So, Rob's method has been awesome for me, period. No plans of changing direction any time soon.

But I also understand Robert's method can't possibly appeal to everybody. There will always be people who are more interested in the style of singing that appoggio technique teaches, or SLS technique teaches, or bel canto teaches, etc. So you also shouldn't necessarily take my word for it, because of that.

So in the end it comes down to, know what to look for in a vocal coach, choose wisely, find one you trust, and follow that one mentor. Not to say you need to exclude all other input. Be open to everything. But you need to find one path if you want to follow a path that leads to straight progress with no twists and turns and confusion. Or perhaps a consolidation of a few similar paths. People here have had success with that too; geno comes to mind, he learned from both KTVA and 4 pillars and he is a killer singer. But it works because of buying multiple programs or books containing full methods, not from just browsing multiple youtube channels that only share portions of the content within a vocal method.

Owen, I appreciate your support, but I have to correct you on something here... I'm pretty sure it was you on the other side of the last four skype lessons where we worked a LOT on Appoggio. Your post implies that we are not working on appoggio at TVS, thats not true at all... thats all we are doing lately and I just added four pages to the book on the topic this week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Amnesia: In my opinion, its the very lucky and rare singer that can get free help sufficient for them to achieve their singing goals, or to get there entirely on their own.

I hope this is helpful.

And Lord... if you don't like me... you can argue with Steve Fraser, one of the world's leading experts on voice technique and vocal acoustics... ok? So have at it... you tell Steve what he doesn't know about voice training ok?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rob, I have absolutely no problem with you nor Steve, and I don't want to seem like an *******, but I don't want somebody who is new to singing to think that they have to spend money right off the bat either, does that make sense? Like I said before, vocal lessons aren't useless, but he really doesn't need to be investing a lot of money if he hasn't even started.

Also, I said if somebody says you have to invest money, not just anyone who teaches singing. This is important. This whole argument is about somebody claiming that it is something you absolutely need, me saying otherwise, and you saying I don't know what I'm talking about.

I have a lot to learn, and much to practice, but I'm always posting my stuff in the critique forum (the reason I have an account) and I have a song there now even. Though I did plan on doing the vocals a little bit better over the weekend

Look man, I can see that you want to sell your stuff, and you actually want to help this guy at the same time. There's nothing wrong with that unless you tell him that he won't get anywhere without spending money, because that makes me ' >:( ' and it's an obvious lie.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

... well, Lord... ? If I said he "HAS" to buy something, I meant it in a broad sense... as an expression to emphasize the importance and make my point. The context was not meant to be an absolutely, otherwise he can't sing at all. Also, consider the context of this forum. This forum is a lot about vocal technique, getting better, what works, etc... and amnesia's question was in regards to vocal technique and getting better. So, I think the meaning of my message being that it is 'super' important to get a good teacher and good products, was understood by others on this post. Am I wrong?

To your point, maybe "should" would of been a more accurate word to use, but even "should" does not adequately express the importance of it. Vocal training is not a "should" in my view. It is a "have to" and "must" thing in my world.

In regards to your disposition, when you use profanity, tell people to tell me to 'piss off' and then cop an attitude about anyone that has a product or service to offer for singers that communicates that our intentions are selfish... Then, I think you are being a butt hole, on top of the fact that your just wrong on that point.... but let's not bicker about it anymore... So be cool...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrator

Hi. I'm a 17 year old male whose range is roughly E2-G4. I mostly sing songs in the rock genre. (Vocal lessons are not an option due to money and time issues)

I'm pretty sure I'm not singing right. I can't hold a note for more than four seconds and my voice gets sore and tired after hitting some notes in the E4-G4 range. I breathe from my diaphragm when I sing, and none of the exercises around the internet are helping.

Also, I want to increase my range. Most of the songs I sing are in the tenor range (up to C5) and I hate it when I have to change the key. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best way to achieve this would be to find my mixed voice. There are two definitions of mixed voice I have found:

1. To create a seamless gap between chest and head voice

2. To combine chest and head voice into one voice

I'd prefer it if I could combine the chest and head voice into one voice, so I can make the higher notes as "real" as possible.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

Sorry for the 'noise' amnesia, let me answer your question here:

As far as my school goes, I don't like the term 'mixed voice' and your post precisely makes my point. Your confused about its meaning... as are teaming hordes of singers and sadly teachers around the world. It makes students of singing chase imaginary, 3rd registers or any number of strange conclusions of its meaning. Costing you time, money and heartache. Here is a video i did on this subject a few years ago that got a lot of play and interest.

MIXED VOICE IS DEAD!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNfpeHE6Wls

So hopefully that clears up the source of some of the confusion propagating about the term 'mixed voice'. Having shared that with you, I am not denying that there is a 'mixed' or as we say in TVS a 'covered' sensation as we bridge from one register to another, I'm only arguing that the use of this term "mixed" is creating confusion.

So look... what you want to achieve with your singing is the same thing everyone wants to achieve... seamless bridges and head tones that sound potent and full. Everyone on this forum 'gets that'... it is in fact, the main point of good voice training, to become masters at doing 'that'! So how do you bridge & connect successfully?

Honestly, it is a complex coordination of physiology and acoustics, teamed with building unique, specialized physical strength and coordination of your larynx region and respiration... (... thats why you need training, to build the strength and coordination... the athletic involved in great voice technique come from training).

My advise would be to first learn to bridge, regardless if it sounds "cool" or not in your head voice. Your primary goal in step 1 is to shut down the constrictors and learn about your head voice. where it is, how it feels what it can do. So you would train a TVS technique called "Lift up / pull back" to gain this coordination for bridging. Here is a video on that.

TVS "Lift Up / Pull Back"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F7v80VIAIw

Once you have Mastered that movement... you then begin to work on your Intrinsic Anchoring and Appoggio respiration techniques, using the same sirens (content found in my training system), to make your head voice get beefy and remove Falsetto mode with a high performance, calibrated and formant tuned, twang phonation. What is Intrinsic Anchoring, well, this video is not specifically about Intrinsic Anchoring, but it is about larynx dampening with is part of the Intrinsic Anchoring Set of technical components you need to coordinate to boom up your head voice.

The Benefits of Dampening Your Larynx

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5qPifWNw_c

... and thats just about the best I can do for you on a forum, without you having more information to work with. Maybe "Lord" has some street advise for you on how to get the job done, but this would be my consultation. If you want to learn more and really get good at this, an investment in a good vocal training product and a few lessons will go a long, long way.

I hope this helps...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...