broad vowels- Flat tongue

[chuy67]

I recently found out that when I form my broad vowels, my tongue goes flat. To my knowledge, a flat tongue is very bad! If I am correct, a flat tongue is a leading cause of a hoarse voice, lack of resonance, pitch instability, and much more. My question to you all is how can I stop my tongue from going flat? I try to slowly go from a narrow vowel to broad vowel. But when I do, the tongue just goes flat. I also tried to first form the broad vowel with my lips and not drop the jaw, vice verse. But still, I can not form the vowel without dropping the jaw. Any suggestions?

[VideoHere]

wow, i was under the assumption that it's desirable to lower the tongue to prevent a block to the sound. you need an open airway...no?

[chuy67]

wow, i was under the assumption that it's desirable to lower the tongue to prevent a block to the sound. you need an open airway...no?

From what I read no. The reason for this is the blocking of the throat with the root of the tongue. When the tongue is rested parallel to the ground, it blocks the back of the throat. http://www.voiceteacher.com/tongue.html check that out its a bit long but you should understand it more after reading that page. Do not forget, I am a beginner, therefor you should stick around and wait for a reply from someone else.

[VideoHere]

hymm....i'm just saying it should be relaxed and situated comfortably low in the mouth. some advocate placing the tip gently behind the front teeth. logically if it's allowed to get in the way it blocks the sound and can hinder resonance

[Steven Fraser]

I recently found out that when I form my broad vowels, my tongue goes flat. To my knowledge, a flat tongue is very bad! If I am correct, a flat tongue is a leading cause of a hoarse voice, lack of resonance, pitch instability, and much more. My question to you all is how can I stop my tongue from going flat? I try to slowly go from a narrow vowel to broad vowel. But when I do, the tongue just goes flat. I also tried to first form the broad vowel with my lips and not drop the jaw, vice verse. But still, I can not form the vowel without dropping the jaw. Any suggestions?

Chuy67: The tongue takes many shapes in response to your desire to sing the differing vowels. Its a common misconception that the lips are what should do most of the forming the vowels.

Here is an exercise to help you discover the proper action: Make a huge smile, with your front teeth about 1 thumb width apart. Without changing the smile (or laughing for that matter) in your middle voice sing ee, ay , ah, oh, oo. Take a breath, and sing Ih, eh, a (like in cat) aw (as in cot) uh (as in cut) and coe (as in curt).

In this exercise, the keeping of the grin makes the shaping of the lips for the vowel impossible. Instead, you will find your voice perfectly able (if a bit awkward at first) to make all of these vowels 'internally'. As a very useful byproduct, if you have any issues on a vowel, you will experience difficulty, and likely become aware of tension. The presence of that tension tells you that you've not been using your tongue to form that particular vowel habitually.

Go through the exercise slowly, and insist to yourself that you sing the vowels clearly and distinctly. I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the experience.

[Steven Fraser]

I recently found out that when I form my broad vowels, my tongue goes flat. To my knowledge, a flat tongue is very bad! If I am correct, a flat tongue is a leading cause of a hoarse voice, lack of resonance, pitch instability, and much more. My question to you all is how can I stop my tongue from going flat? I try to slowly go from a narrow vowel to broad vowel. But when I do, the tongue just goes flat. I also tried to first form the broad vowel with my lips and not drop the jaw, vice verse. But still, I can not form the vowel without dropping the jaw. Any suggestions?

Chuy67: And, just to be sure... there is a difference between flat 'side to side', and flat 'front to back'. As we go through this discussion, it will be useful to differentiate.

[chuy67]

It's late, so I will try this tommorow morning. But one thing, could you explain front side to side and flat front to back. Thank you for you present and future assistance.

[Martin H]

chuy67,

You can have a "flat broad" tounge or a "compressed" tounge or a combination -both high or lower in the mouth. And they are all healthy positions -if done correctly.

Ex. a lot of opera singers like Pavarotti use the "compressed" tounge. And a lot of "power singers" like Patti LaBelle use the "flat broad" tounge.

Mostly it's about weither you want a darker or lighter sound color. :)

[Robert Lunte]

Interesting... I always place my tongue "out of the way"... tip of the tongue behind the back of the bottom teeth. Ive seen these models where you touch your molars with the back of your tongue? I suppose that may create some interesting results, but feels clunky and prevents the jaw from dropping and opening of the formant... but interesting discussion.

Certainly, do NOT pull the tongue back ever. Swallowing your tongue is a common problem with beginners , they dont get the tongue forward, they pull it back and this completely snuffs out our overtones, messes up your formant and will kill an othewise great vocal tone were it not stuffed down into your throat.

Hope this helps.

[Robert Lunte]

Hey Steve,,, I think this hints at some of the formant/overtone work we were discussing on the phone.

[Martin H]

Actually Robert,

Though you are not actually "swallowing" your tounge -in Growling the back of the tounge would be very low and backwards in the throat and can actually feel as if you "swallow it". So to say that you should NOT pull your tounge back...is well...depended on your sound-choice AND of course if you can do it healthy:

http://www.box.net/shared/3amj5sj7qz

[Steven Fraser]

It's late, so I will try this tommorow morning. But one thing, could you explain front side to side and flat front to back. Thank you for you present and future assistance.

Chuy67: Sure. The tongue, when viewed from the front of the mouth, can be in different positions. Flat 'side-to-side' would mean that the surface of the tongue was at the same level on the left, in the center, and on the right at any given distance from the teeth, not rolled or curled. In this position, its likely that the singer can sense the tip of the tongue behind the bottom front teeth, and perhaps sense the inside surfaces of the molars. Flat 'front-to-back' would mean that the surface of the tongue was at the same level from the teeth to the back of the mouth.

I raise the distinction because when people say 'flat tongue' is 'good' or 'bad', they could mean either one. I just want our conversation to be clear on what is really being asked.

IMO, a 'side-to-side' flat tongue is a good thing, but a flat 'front-to-back' tongue can only make the aw vowel.

[chuy67]

Sorry for taking a while to respond. Steven, I tried what you told me to do and found that I could shape my vowels with just my soft pallet, dropping of jaw, and a slight dip in the tongue. Is there anything else I should be looking for?

[Steven Fraser]

Sorry for taking a while to respond. Steven, I tried what you told me to do and found that I could shape my vowels with just my soft pallet, dropping of jaw, and a slight dip in the tongue. Is there anything else I should be looking for?

chuy67: Go stand in front of a mirror and watch your tongue as you sing /i/ (ee), /o/ (oh) and /u/ (oo) with the grin. I think you will see what I meant about the tongue being flat side-to-side, but arched up toward the roof of the mouth.

Fun exercise, wasn't it.

[chuy67]

Quick question before I try this new one out. Let's just say I have a rather large tongue. It's not so large that its scary, but it bigger than the average person. Could my tongue be too big for my mouth? Therefor, getting caught up in my throat?

[chuy67]

And by the way, that exercise.....let's just say it's pretty hard not to laugh. But it is a very good one.