Special Techniques For Head Voice Development!

[ryjcio]

ronws:

So you think wrong.

Jussi Boerling sounds so awesome and powerful, I don't even see a little similarity to onsets presented in TVS video. I don't hear any TVS Onsets in his singing. But yes, he's got a kick as hell.

Yes, I'm young, but stop your judgement, because I see you really like to bend the truth and put words, those I've never told, to my mouth.

//Edit: Some gramma improved.

[ronws]

ronws:

So you think wrong.

Jussi Boerling sounds so awesome and powerful, I don't even see a little similarity to onsets presented in TVS video. I don't hear any TVS Onsets in his singing. But yes, he's got a kick as hell.

Yes, I'm young, but stop your judgement, because I see you really like to bend the truth and put words, those I've never told, to my mouth.

//Edit: Some gramma improved.

No, nor was I comparing Robert to the Boerlings. And no, you cannot stop my judgement, just as I cannot stop yours. But I have seen almost every tutorial of Robert's and I'm not seeing where you see it as weak and girly. So, I should have led off with that.

But yes, I could be wrong in my estimation of you. I may have to retract parts of my previous post. For example, I said I would hesitate to call you a troll.

I said you could learn something by sticking around. Maybe I was wrong, though i hesitate to fully commit to being wrong on that, as Robert helps a lot of people. And there are many other helpful people here.

But hey, if you're going to start with the tone that you have, there's certainly nothing I can do to stop you.

Just remember, those who live by the sword, die by the sword, so to speak. He who soweth discord shall inherit the wind. Let he who is wiithout sin among you cast the first stone. And before you remove the splinter in someone else's eye, first remove the log that it is in your own eye.

And a few other "judge not, lest ye be judged" type of references.

[ryjcio]

Oh big words in such a small case. I love poems.

I've been reading the forum since 2011. I decided to type something here because for my ears these exercises are just the marketing trick and I hear huge lack of power, it doesn't sound even simmilary to any of the great vocalists, except the Bee Gees.

Okej, Robert helped a lot of people, agreed. But after his response to my record... Shame on me... I think these onsets are one big lie, I don't even see significant difference beetwen each one, except the attack. What's the onset anyway? Is it an exercise, or a mode (what mode)?

[DJDeth]

ryjcio: Onset = attack. You should've looked it up before deciding to take part in the discussion the way you did. Now all your critique above looks even more off place, as it shows you didn't get the point Robert made in the video.

[zedbo]

ryjcio. I don't think you're a troll, nowehere near. But its not worth getting into an argument here, man. We are all here to learn - regardless of age, experience or how well we speak the Queen's English...

Onset to me is simply the way you start your note. Its vitally important because the way you start it will tend to be the way you end it, so if you start badly, it will be difficult to correct it.

[Robert Lunte]

Ryjcio:

For starters, I assure you, I can make that distortion sound that your making. I've done it before. If I did it day in and day out, all the time and that was all I did as a singer, one of two things would happen.

1). I would damage my voice.

or

2). My voice might build a new 'attractor state' for that sound and an endurance would develop.

You probably have developed #2. That is great, congratulations you now have an attractor state for a growly distortion. But there is a price, your ability to bridge and sing in your head voice is likely not there. And so many other things you need to do if you actually want to sing. When I say "singing", I mean making vocal sounds that have melody and are in pitch, among other things.

Don't misread me, I think distortion is great, I do it, I train it, its in my book... I'm only saying, and this is only my opinion, if this is all you do, its not interesting to me. The voice can do such wonderful things and can make aggressive 'strong & ugly' sounds in many ways, not just one way. I would want for you, to be able to do more with your singing... that is my point for you.

In regards to my 6 specialized onsets, which is another discussion... you still don't get it. The video is demonstrates techniques you would use in training your voice. Specifically, in developing your head voice... These onsets manipulate the musculature and coordination needed to develop great command and control of your head voice. It is vocal techniques to be used in training. Having said that, when I listen to your singing, I hear about 90% 'attack & release' onsets or glottal attacks. But your glottal attacks are in your chest voice and you are adding constriction to them to make it distorted, so its not exactly the same thing.

You song is fine and I commend you on being an artist and writing something interesting that people may enjoy. I'm only saying, you totally don't get the point of the 'onset' video... which is clear to everyone reading this... and that as a voice coach, I am doing my job to warn you that if you keep making that sound you are either going to damage your voice one day or, not damage your voice, but only be a one dimensional singer.

Is this distortion sound the only thing you want to do? Ok, great... keep going with it I wish you the best. If you want to learn to make other sounds, for example, sounds that have melodies that are in pitch with the song your singing, then pay attention to some vocal training and techniques. The other thing is, that form of singing has no range... if you want range and to be able to scream high notes, you need to train techniques like this,,, distorting, growling, screamo, call it what you want ... LOL... its all the same stuff and it has some value, its cool... to a certain extent. But in my book, what is more cool is having good vocal health, having good range, being able to bridge my passaggio and singing melodies that have real pitch to them... then being able to do both the distortion and clean singing together.

Thanks for sharing.

[Validar]

Wow. I see we've had a trend here lately of posters who admit to being a "student", yet criticize the methods of a trained professional. It's one thing to ask questions out of lack of understanding, but some of these posters have been downright disrespectful with the snide remarks.

ryjcio, I'm sure you've been here long enough to see for yourself the results Robert has achieved with many of his students, and that he has obviously been able to keep his business afloat.

Moral of the story - It's hard to argue with success, but if for some odd reason you feel compelled and qualified to do so, at least bring some facts to support your claims. You need to hear everything there is to know about onsets before you dismiss them so quickly.

[Robert Lunte]

... Hey Validar, thanks for your support. Sometimes Kevin Richards and I bantor back and forth about the business... and we have commented on and joked a lot about generation "xbox". Teens and people in their 20s.... love 'em, have a lot of them as my clients. Some, like Owen Korzec who you see posting here a lot are real bright, ambitious people that kinda know how the world works... some just need a little help on learning the lessons of, "... you don't get something for nothing"... you have to work at things in life to get what you want usually... and yet still, some seem to need to understand that you have to practice and work hard to get good things in you life... and, they posses a kind of, "... prove it to me", attitude. A real lack of respect and a false belief that they know what they are talking about and I'm just blowing hot air... they think they are "onto me..." and even after taking lessons and coming on board... they still, roll their eyes, fold their arms, sit down and wait for me to prove to them that I know what I'm talking about.

It is a real problem. It comes from kids not learning that you have to work hard to achieve great things in life, it comes from the instant gratification you can get from growing up with the internet and the vast amount of information that is available... in other words, they think just because they have watched 150 youtube videos on screamo and can do it in their band, albeit, out of pitch... which they don't notice... they feel they already know what they need to know. What happens is I take them into a siren and they immediately spit up and choke all over themselves or their voice breaks... then I look them in the eye and say, "... now, are you ready to listen to what I have to tell you"?

Its a generation that has had a lot handed to them and has experienced access to great amounts of information and passive entertainment. Add to that, if you have parents that never made you get a job so you can learn the value of hard work... you have what we call generation "xbox".

I am a member of 'generation x', the first generation to be really internet savvy, you see that in my ability to market my services... the generation after that was the 'generation y'... why should I care, why should I strive for something better?... thankfully we are past that... now we are into generation 'xbox' which is a very savvy generation because of the internet, but they have misguided arrogant attitudes.

I don't know anything about rygcio in regards to his generation, but it wouldn't surprise me if this is the case. Also, I am not down on rygcio, I can see that he just doesn't understand what onsets are, why they are important and probably has little appreciate for vocal training and what it is and can do for you. He also likely feels that the vocal sounds he is making are good enough. Its "strong, ugly rock" and what else do you need. It sounds 'cool'... to him and his bandmates and it sounds like what a lot of other screamo guys do, so that is all the validation he needs. This is perfectly fine, not everyone cares about vocal technique nor do they have to.

Rygcio, I like your song and I think your distortion is cool... I'm only saying, you might consider looking into the health risks of making that sound too much and explore other things you can do with your voice. By coming here to the TMV Forum, you have taken a good first step in opening up your exposure to new ideas. Keep exploring and keep rocking... your doing fine... you'll do even better if you understand what an onset is and how they can be helpful in your singing.

[Robert Lunte]

ryjcio. I don't think you're a troll, nowehere near. But its not worth getting into an argument here, man. We are all here to learn - regardless of age, experience or how well we speak the Queen's English...

Onset to me is simply the way you start your note. Its vitally important because the way you start it will tend to be the way you end it, so if you start badly, it will be difficult to correct it.

PRECISELY. That is a big part of it... and with these specialized onsets, they can be used as trouble-shooters to fix problems as well.

[Guest]

RE: ryjcio

Fundamentals and basic technique all start somewhere and many times at the same place; no matter what your ultimate goal. It's about building usable strengths. When I sign my name it is very different then my coworkers signature or my friends or my wife etc. Some write fancy and some not so fancy. Some are light and some heavy...whatever. But we all learn the same alphabet and block printing first before we ever develop our chosen style. Even exact cursive techniques before developing out own writing.

[VideoHere]

You really can't win, whatever terms you use. The only way you can understand everything is through knowing what is going on scientifically. I think all serious students should strive to get to that point, where they no longer have to thinking in terms of chest/head/falsetto/mix but rather in terms of CT/TA ratio, vibratory mechanisms (and there's still some confusion there), formant tuning, placement, support level, and all these things that have to do with specific components of technique that need to be intentionally calibrated whenever we sing anything really difficult.

great post owen.....

[Robert Lunte]

Thanks Rachsing... good post. I myself, as an artist, have to remember point #2 sometimes. If Ryjcio marches to his own beat, that is not all bad... it shows moxy and has merit.... but you got to keep it healthy... thanks for reminding us all of this virtue.

[ryjcio]

Okey, I divided my post. Now it's 3 partial.

Dear Robert,

Part 1st (Substantive):

Sing is about production of tone. I just don't get how something that doesn't sound so well can help me to achive my goals (all's about head voice). And one of my goals is to sing the Cementary Gates of Pantera, especially last notes (C6) with the same power as my A5, because it's little unstable for now. I hoped this video and method would be helpful. I think I was wrong.

And, you suggest me that I pulled my chest to... A5? Do you really believe that? I did the fast shout out without any post process effects for you. Little unstable, but is so late here, I didn't want to be too loud (of course I was anyway).

http://www26.zippyshare.com/v/31725635/file.html

If you want to hear the clean siren (from what note to what note?) just let me know, I will do it as fast as I can.

I really believe you can tell that really great amount of rock singers have got an unproper technic. But... They sound (or sounded) awesome anyway over the years and do not (or did not) loose stamina. For example: Ronnie Jamies Dio. I wonder what do you tell about students of Maestro Kyle typed at your website.

Back to the onsets: So it is all about attack notes. And I don't find it useful so I'll leave it. That doesn't seems to be useful for me. Especially I've got attacks in my book.

Part 2nd (Less-substantive)

That's the screamo:

This is not the screamo:

Yeah, tell me he's got a wrong technic and I'll stop laughing because from this place is not funny anymore.

I really would be appriciate if you would notice the difference. Because calling everything with a heavy rasp as "screamo" is stupid and... really immature. I don't know how you can suggest me that I'm closed-minded if you're not better for sure.

Part 3rd (About x-box generation or whatever)

Maybe in USA kids are able not to work over the years... But I live in Eastern European Country and I had been working since I'm 19, because here money don't grow on trees. Better think about your personal life, not mine, becouse I've not came here to be analised by psychologists.

[Guest]

Ok, this isn't my area but I'd like to comment anyway, as a listener. Also on another comment made by you.

First, speaking musically. Admittedly, I am not a heavy metal or hard rock singer etc. I don't sing high tones and have no desire to. But I do understand something about music and even as just a listener it is common sense as to what I am hearing. I don't have the knowledge in this area to either support Rob's points nor dispute them and the same goes for supporting or disputing your points. Not technically. BUT, having at least some knowledge as well as a good set of ears I can say this about the sample you provided. There is a difference between "hitting" a note and "singing" a note. You may have hit the note but it sure as hell wasn't musical to my ears. That was a scream as if someone just stuck a hot knife in your eye!!! Not singing imo. Sorry man.

As for the comment on the kids in the U.S. well I have no idea what kind of distorted news they feed you about us here in the USA but it's wrong. If you have been working since 19 then I say you are the lucky one and maybe money grows on trees there. It certainly doesn't here and I was working at 13 or 14. I had to work two jobs to support my family and still work on holidays such as Christmas and Thanksgiving as well as New Year at 56 years old. And it doesn't appear I will ever be able to retire and stop working. And this is common here.

I also travel 85 miles each way to work. As a kid I also took trains and buses for 90 minutes to 2 hrs to get to work. My wife works also so we can afford to live. We here in the U.S. don't have anything handed to us. Despite what other government controlled news may say.

My apologies to the moderators.

[Robert Lunte]

Hey, nothing to apologize for Tommy... I like your contribution...

[Robert Lunte]

Okey, I divided my post. Now it's 3 partial.

Dear Robert,

Part 1st (Substantive):

Sing is about production of tone. I just don't get how something that doesn't sound so well can help me to achive my goals (all's about head voice). And one of my goals is to sing the Cementary Gates of Pantera, especially last notes (C6) with the same power as my A5, because it's little unstable for now. I hoped this video and method would be helpful. I think I was wrong.

And, you suggest me that I pulled my chest to... A5? Do you really believe that? I did the fast shout out without any post process effects for you. Little unstable, but is so late here, I didn't want to be too loud (of course I was anyway).

http://www26.zippyshare.com/v/31725635/file.html

If you want to hear the clean siren (from what note to what note?) just let me know, I will do it as fast as I can.

I really believe you can tell that really great amount of rock singers have got an unproper technic. But... They sound (or sounded) awesome anyway over the years and do not (or did not) loose stamina. For example: Ronnie Jamies Dio. I wonder what do you tell about students of Maestro Kyle typed at your website.

Back to the onsets: So it is all about attack notes. And I don't find it useful so I'll leave it. That doesn't seems to be useful for me. Especially I've got attacks in my book.

Part 2nd (Less-substantive)

That's the screamo:

This is not the screamo:

Yeah, tell me he's got a wrong technic and I'll stop laughing because from this place is not funny anymore.

I really would be appriciate if you would notice the difference. Because calling everything with a heavy rasp as "screamo" is stupid and... really immature. I don't know how you can suggest me that I'm closed-minded if you're not better for sure.

Part 3rd (About x-box generation or whatever)

Maybe in USA kids are able not to work over the years... But I live in Eastern European Country and I had been working since I'm 19, because here money don't grow on trees. Better think about your personal life, not mine, becouse I've not came here to be analised by psychologists.

Ryjcio:

Thanks for taking the time to post your videos here... I can hear the difference between the two different forms of distortion. I think I hear what you mean... the 'screamo' has no sense of pitch... but the 2nd singer does a nice job of mixing the clean sound with the 'screamo' which is more artistic in my view... kind of one of my points... not sure why the torture imagery is so cool in a world where many innocent people are being killed and tortured every day... I guess its a maturity thing and off the point, but it lacks class... in my opinion.

The second singer has a sense of pitch, which to my ears is far, far more interesting and enjoyable for me to listen to.

So I get your point Ryjcio in regards to distortion can be different styles... however both of these singers have to be very careful not to damage their voices and I by no means am convinced these guys are not having vocal problems from this, although both singers seem to be distorting with noise in the vocal track and activating the ventricular folds mostly... but its hard to tell. Distortion always comes with risk, it doesn't matter who you are or what your singing.

But ... what does that have to do with my video regarding specialized onsets for head voice development and your challenge to understand how they can help you? To me, that is the point of this discussion really, isn't it? Didn't you say that the onsets were "weak and not powerful"? Didn't you say that the onsets would make you sound like a girl? Those are the remarks that were worthy of a healthy argument and debate in my view.

Now if you review the distortion techniques I offer in "The Four Pillars of Singing", I think you would find them to be useful for you... it would give you more ideas, more sounds to work with, a new kind of distortion to work with... more similar to Chris Cornell-ish distortion. What makes me confused is you seem to be making an argument for less knowledge, less options for your singing and even fewer distortion options for you to use... the very sound that you are interested in as an artist. Why would you do that? What if you took my 'wind & release' onset and did a 'wind & release' into your distortion sound? What kind of sensation of potential benefit could you gain from it? What if you experimented with the TVS "quack & release" onset in your head voice to get great vocal fold closure and placement and then out of that onset... modified to your distorted sound? Would it feel different? Would it maybe give you the same sound and feel better or give you a sense of more control?

You have to get your head and ear out of the singing for just a minute and get into the training... I am not trying to say with this video, "... here are the sounds you can make in your head voice"... that is what you think the message is... but its not and others on this discussion understand that. The message really is, "... if you tried these specialized onsets, what can they do for you? Would they create more musculature in your singing? Would the give you a better placement with less constriction? Would they help you to belt (attack) or distort better? These onsets are about building strength and coordination in a training context, not about singing.

Some of them do show up in singing however, which makes this confusing... but when they do, the context is very different and the merits by which we judge them change when we are judging singing... this is training... not singing.

One other point that is worthy of mentioning is both these recordings are heavily doubled, auto-tuned, compressed, mixed and mastered... That doesn't take anything away from the artist, but in the studio, you can do a lot of things to make singing sound pretty darn tight... if your sample was just a quick little demo you threw together for us.. then I have to say, you did a decent job just laying something down without much production energy going into it... nice work.

I would like to ask you a question... have you ever trained your voice? Had a voice lesson or tried any vocal products to try to learn some new ideas to help you to do what your already doing, BETTER?

[ryjcio]

Dear Tommy,

As a musician you should be able to recognize the song and the quick clip that was recorded only for show some abilities. That was recorded in 2 minutes, I didn't spend many time to practice it, I've just picked up a song and record the short fragment of it.

The orginal:

I'm pretty sure that I don't sound as great as a Chris... YET. That's the reason why I decided to write in this topic.

According to the 2nd part of your post... Are we talking about something called xbox generation (or whatever) or not? My mother, when she was a kid, didn't even dream to go to school by bus or eat some chocolate. But what's the point of this contest? You want to compete who's got worse?

[Robert Lunte]

... maybe the Xbox idea was patronizing and if so I apologize ryjcio.. I tried to point out that not all kids these days are like that... you also have your unique challenges to deal with that generation x didn't... such as the shit economy for example...

[Guest]

My mother, when she was a kid, didn't even dream to go to school by bus or eat some chocolate. But what's the point of this contest? You want to compete who's got worse?

And that is my point My mother was the same. So my point was that money doesn't grow on trees here as you suggested. Your tone in that post made it sound like we here in the states are spoiled and rich. I am only making the point that, that is not true. We may be from different parts of the world, but not much different really. And by your comment about your mother and what I know about my mothers upbringing, that wasn't much different either.

No contest. And again....that's my point. We don't have it better here. Not worse either. But not the so called "lucky ones." And I'm not looking to compare notes.

Peace man! ;)

[Robert Lunte]

... there are plenty of people in the US these days that are suffering... there are no jobs...

[D.Starr]

I'm part of the generation xbox. It's just the passing of the times.

Some go through it, some don't.

I'm working my ass off though.

[ryjcio]

Dear Robert,

But ... what does that have to do with my video regarding specialized onsets for (...)

Of course nothing. Because it wasn't the substantive part of my comment. These onsets sound to me girly. I was suprissed you posted that as a new exercise. You don't sound so girly at the rest of your videos.

Why would you do that? What if you took my 'wind & release' onset and did a 'wind & release' into your distortion sound? What kind of sensation of potential benefit could you gain from it? What if you experimented with the TVS "quack & release" onset in your head voice to get great vocal fold closure and placement and then out of that onset... modified to your distorted sound? Would it feel different? Would it maybe give you the same sound and feel better or give you a sense of more control?

I believe I did this before. I experimented a lot with attacks, sound colour and power. But I've got to admit that I'm still don't get the idea...

http://w151.wrzuta.pl/audio/3lBmnWFaDMh/mandalor_-_pasozyt

Here's the old stuff I recorded with my friends. I'm just afraid of sounding girly couse I sounded that way before. I can even translate comments for you:

a bleeeee, wokalista brzmi jak kastrat... masakra!

Aw bleh, the vocalist sounds like a castrat... massacre!

ale chujowy wokal

How sucking vocal.

...

(...) These onsets are about building strength and coordination in a training context, not about singing.

How the weak, almost breathy, sound with raised larynx and lack of ring tone could help me to build my strength at the head voice? How practising the light setting can help me reach the rich color of my voice?

have you ever trained your voice? Had a voice lesson (...)

I was teached by some singing teacher from Music University. He was specialist in jazz. Then I went to the classical teacher and then I was practising with the doyen of Music University, Classical too (I didn't pass the exams to the university for real, I failed my actor exam, oh, ironic ).

[Robert Lunte]

ryjcio,

I sympathize with your story and admire your efforts to some extent... but these onsets don't sound "girly"? LOL... they are not falsetto, they are not even light mass "Journey"-like head tones... they are medium to heavy mass , highly compressed head tones ... with overlay distortion? Does anyone think these onsets sound 'girly' in the least bit?

Bro, you don't have to be blowing out your lungs with scream distortion to not sound 'girly'... I guess it boils down to how people define 'girly' singing? ??? That is one of the strangest comments I have ever heard regarding one of my video demonstrations...

Listen,... if the aesthetic is the only thing you understand, you don't understand the training message of the video or what I mean when I say "work flow" and "onset", etc... that is fine... I think your confused by the falsetto components of the onset work flows in a few of the samples, but if I could help you here... don't judge it by how it starts (the "onset") ... judge it by where it goes (the "cool" part) ... what it turns into.

If you are interested in the training benefits of it, then you need to definitely listen to how it starts and undestand what an "onset" is and what I mean when I speak about and demonstrate "work flows" ... because the training message behind it that everyone else understands is found in how it starts and the work flows involved in 2 of the 6... , not in how it ends necessarily, which is the 'cool' Xbox part. How it ends is relevant I suppose to some extent, but its not really the main point.

You must be getting distracted by the work flows at the onset (which momentarily, pass through falsetto vocal mode as the work flow sequence of the onset moves forward [work flows = 'step 1, step 2, step 3, etc...])... its the only thing that could make sense to explain why you would think this sounds 'girly'? Or, your watching a different video that has some falsetto vocal mode in it, used in another training context as a technique. Don't get hung up on any of the Falsetto sounds you hear, if you do, your totally missing the point. The onsets are not about learning to sing Falsetto, ironically, if anything, they are about learning how to NOT sing Falsetto... HOWEVER, ... in TVS we use Falsetto in the training of voices. It has certain applications that are useful when training the head voice, NOT when singing in the head voice. In training, Falsetto... ya, that sound we don't want... is used to help singers shut down constriction (choking), find better head voice or M2 placements (which frees the voice to engage the musculature needed to "boom-up" the head voice) and we use Falsetto in training to help train the timing of bridging... to teach students to bridge early, instead of pushing late into belts. That's right... even though it doesn't sound 'cool', it still has a purpose... when training... so are you listening to training techniques or are you listening to me sing? Because if you were listening to me sing, I would not be using Falsetto, unless it was the first of three scream sequences in "Child in Time" or I was singing a Bee Gees song...

I don't care if you think it sounds girly or not in the least, Im just fascinated by your perception that it is? I hope I have clarified for you what to be listening for.

Anyways, keep chopping, sounds like your getting somewhere... keep your mind open to new ideas and be careful with the distortion.

[ryjcio]

Dear Robert,

I'm sure we're watching the same video, because I clearly see your face talkin' to me

For my opinion the dude from Journey (i'm talking about that who sang Don't stop belivin') sounds heavier than your samples. He's got a much more lower frequencies than the samples at your last video.

I do not blow out my lungs when I scream neither at high notes nor at lower notes. I have to put some energy in it, I admit, but I'm far to pushing. I was pushing at the begining of my learning and I realised that's not the way, because it was painful.

[Robert Lunte]

... ok bud... I would have to disagree that any of these onsets are a lighter mass then Steve Perry, who was the lead singer of Journey... someone I grew up listening too, like you listen to these guys... in any case, here we go again on the context... it isn't singing dude... its a training technique, about onsets... its not even about the 3 seconds of sustained phonation that follows that your judging it by... but what ever... I'm talking in circles now... I'm done with this... thanks for being a member and have fun here...

See,, this is what I mean by generation 'xbox'... no offense, I love you guys, but it makes me laugh sometimes.

Later bud...