ever hear of this?

[VideoHere]

folks, i read somewhere, (i cannot recall where) that there are certain singers who need to sing loudly. their voice seems to come alive when they are singing loudly. they can sing softly, and dynamically but softly is still loudly and loudly is very powerful. the power is just there, with no effort.

have you ever heard of that?

[Steven Fraser]

folks, i read somewhere, (i cannot recall where) that there certain singers who need to sing loudly. their voice seems to come alive when they are singing loudly. they can sing softly, and dynamically but softly is still loudly and loudly is very powerful. the power is just there, with no effort.

have you ever heard of that?

VIDEOHERE: sure! They are called 'big voices'. I've known 3 or 4 of them personally. Their soft is quite loud, and their loud is enormous.

[VideoHere]

thanks steve, one of them may be me. is that an issue? should i try to learn not to?

[Snorth]

VIDEOHERE: sure! They are called 'big voices'. I've known 3 or 4 of them personnally. Their soft is quite loud, and their loud is enormous.

This is an interesting subject . While one may choose individually how powerful they wish to sing, some people can definitely sing louder than others. From what I recall reading about this, it is very related to head size. Is it simply because you can get more resonance with a big mouth? This might be nonsense, but it would make sense to me. Because whenever I sing with a darker sound color(closing the velumport and raising the soft palate) the volume definetly get louder even though I don't change what mode I am singing in or raise the pitch.

[gno]

It might be related to vocal tract size, and how thick / strong the chords are?

[Mimi_Daeva]

I have been told that I have a 'big voice' by a few teachers (both voice and dramatic), which is one reason why I decided to focus on classical vocal study. Even the times I have done straight theatrical play productions (no singing, just acting), I can be easily heard in the balconies. I don't think it has as much to do with the size of my head as it does with the shape of my head, which is pretty round and beset by high cheekbones. Rounder, preferably hard (i.e: bone) and concave surfaces reflect sound waves better, which produces grater resonance; that's basic acoustic physics. That's why 'amphitheaters' tend to be on the roundish side (and why everyone likes to sing in them!), and why you sound so much better in the bathroom/shower (which are choc-a-block full of hard surfaces) than just about anywhere else (even when it's not a warm, humid and completely relaxed environment).

But this phenomenon has its drawbacks, especially when attempting to learn how to 'plug in' after years of acoustic singing.

Because whenever I sing with a darker sound color(closing the velumport and raising the soft palate) the volume definetly get louder even though I don't change what mode I am singing in or raise the pitch.

The raising of the soft palate is the key here. In raising the soft palate, you are opening up in such a way that you are utilizing more of your skull (the area from about mid-nose up) for resonance. To really get in your head, try holding your nose as you sing, trying to keep the focus of the sound high enough inside your head that there is little to no change in the sound/feel whether you are holding your nose or not (I can feel the sound "behind" my nose when I do this). Provided you keep the tract aligned and the air moving at a constant pressure, you should be able to add even more volume with ultimately less work.

[Martin H]

In raising the soft palate, you are opening up in such a way that you are utilizing more of your skull (the area from about mid-nose up) for resonance.

Mimi_Daeva, may I ask if you can please elaborate on what you mean by that? :)

[Matt]

This is probably not what youre talking about, but just to eliminate that: Back when I sang even more incorrectly than I do today, all I could do was bellow and roar, because thats what I thought my idols were doing. I just didnt know how to sing softly because all I had ever done was the opposite. I dont think I had a naturally huge voice, I just had learned to tense every muscle in my body and make the windows shake. Not natural or healthy and certainly not to be confused with having big resonances.

[analog]

Matt,

Very interesting post. Like you(long before I learned anything about the voice,)I did the same thing while lowering the larynx a bit(to get a bigger sound.) I was always told that I had a "big voice."

Ironically, once I learned not to "force" the voice(and the million and one other fun facts I've learned over last few of years,) I'm finding out that my voice is MUCH "smaller" than I ever expected. I can certainly still rattle windows(If I'm bored)...but the true "weight" of my voice is not what I imagined.

I still think it's amazing that anyone can figure out how to sing "correctly" naturally! {Kyle and Stan in unison}"You bastards."

[Steven Fraser]

thanks steve, one of them may be me. is that an issue? should i try to learn not to?

VIDEOHERE: Only an issue if you think it is. As you say, bigger voices have challenges when it comes to singing softer, but for the larger voice, the 'soft' may be louder than someone else's 'loud'. IMO, work to balance your registration so that you have the note range you want, and on flexibility & widening the dynamic range, and you'll find your voice able to do pretty much what you want with it.

[Steven Fraser]

It might be related to vocal tract size, and how thick / strong the chords are?

guitartrek: Its five things: 1) the strength of the pulse waves being released from the glottis, 2) the appropriate amount of glottal closed phase, 3) diameter and length of the vocal tract (will explain this a bit more later), 4) epilaryngeal resonance for twang/singer's formant, and 5) optimal vocal tract tuning (related to #3). All of them contribute to the amount and quality of sound produced by the voice. When they are all in good shape, even a smaller voice will be plenty big.

On the topic of item 3, diameter and length of the vocal tract, current vocal science thought is that the various diameters of the sections of the vocal tract combine to provide the frequencies of the formants. Generally, a larger diameter pharynx and/or an overall longer length vocal tract will have naturally lower resonance frequencies for the formants. When this is the case, a formant has the opportunity to align with a lower harmonic, which (on its own) has more sound energy in it than a higher harmonic. The net of this effect (formants aligning with harmonics lower in the series) causes strong emphasis on these lower harmonics. Its for this reason that the high soft palate is a strong influencer on resonance positions. When high, it not only shuts the velopharyngeal port, it makes the pharyngeal section of the vocal tract overall larger.

As to thickness and strength of the vocal bands, you are quite right. These factor into items 1 and 2.

[classical guitar]

Big voices can be frustrating... I know, I'm one. But look at it this way. big voices can give you insight into technical problems better than small voices can, because the problem sounds bigger. Soft sound may be a problem, but you can usually hear tension and bad coordination really good in big voices. But look on the bright side... Would you rather never be heard, or have to do more technical work on balanced onsets on quiet notes. To me the answer is obvious.

[VideoHere]

thanks folks..singing with volume always came natural to me.

[Mimi_Daeva]

Martin H:

It's a difficult thing to describe, but I'll try anyway!

Think about the way your face feels just as you begin to yawn. You should feel an "open" or "lifting" feeling, not just of the palate, but also the sides of your face/head in the jaw/ear area. When you yawn, exhale on a downward sliding "wooooohh", keeping the lifted feeling throughout. Feel where the sound goes; you should feel it in the area behind your eyes (visualizing focusing the sound out of your forehead or "third eye" sometimes helps) and eventually up through the top of your head. The sound will probably be more on the center of pitch, and a bit louder (not necessarily in your own head, but the sound that's coming out of your mouth), as the sound is literally bouncing about off the inside of your skull before it exits your mouth. Ideally, the mouth should be primarily an articulator and not a resonator.

As to thickness and strength of the vocal bands, you are quite right. These factor into items 1 and 2.

In this sense, the vocal folds can be likened to the strings on a guitar. There is a bit of difference in the diameter (thickness) of the low E and High E strings, though they are the same fundamental tone, just in different octaves. The strings are all technically the same length, but vary in diameter and tension, which produces the different tones. The thinner the string, the higher the pitch. However, the vocal folds also elongate (higher pitches) and shorten (lower pitches), unlike with a guitar.

Analog:

Ironically, once I learned not to "force" the voice(and the million and one other fun facts I've learned over last few of years,) I'm finding out that my voice is MUCH "smaller" than I ever expected. I can certainly still rattle windows(If I'm bored)...but the true "weight" of my voice is not what I imagined.

Ah, many of the reconcilable irreconcilables that is part of the slightly masochistic joy of singing! I have left many a lesson saying to myself "Wait...WHAT?!". I find it is best to just go with it, don't try to understand, just accept it. You'll save your sanity that way. :lol:

[Martin H]

Martin H:

It's a difficult thing to describe, but I'll try anyway!

Think about the way your face feels just as you begin to yawn. You should feel an "open" or "lifting" feeling, not just of the palate, but also the sides of your face/head in the jaw/ear area. When you yawn, exhale on a downward sliding "wooooohh", keeping the lifted feeling throughout. Feel where the sound goes; you should feel it in the area behind your eyes (visualizing focusing the sound out of your forehead or "third eye" sometimes helps) and eventually up through the top of your head. The sound will probably be more on the center of pitch, and a bit louder (not necessarily in your own head, but the sound that's coming out of your mouth), as the sound is literally bouncing about off the inside of your skull before it exits your mouth. Ideally, the mouth should be primarily an articulator and not a resonator.

Thank you very much for your explanation.

Am I correct in assuming, that what you are refering to is the subjective term: "Singing in the mask"? And when you mention the "bouncing about off the inside of your shull" you are refering to the oral and pharyngeal cavities and not the nasal cavities due to the fact that the soft palate is raised? :)

[gno]

I've got a couple questions relating to rising the soft pallet:

1) What happens when you sing the "ng" sound? The mouth is being cut off and the air moves through the nasal cavity - right? Is the soft pallet coming down to cut off the mouth, or is the back of the tongue raising - or both? Should the Soft pallet still be as high as you can make it for optimum resonance?

2) What happens in the typical male voice when switching into the passagio from Eb4 to E4 in the traditional classical technique? Is the soft pallet changing positions? Is it coming down slightly? Or going up a little more? I certainly feels different and the sound changes - it feels like there is more nasal resonance to me.

[VideoHere]

Martin H:

It's a difficult thing to describe, but I'll try anyway!

Think about the way your face feels just as you begin to yawn. You should feel an "open" or "lifting" feeling, not just of the palate, but also the sides of your face/head in the jaw/ear area. When you yawn, exhale on a downward sliding "wooooohh", keeping the lifted feeling throughout. Feel where the sound goes; you should feel it in the area behind your eyes (visualizing focusing the sound out of your forehead or "third eye" sometimes helps) and eventually up through the top of your head. The sound will probably be more on the center of pitch, and a bit louder (not necessarily in your own head, but the sound that's coming out of your mouth), as the sound is literally bouncing about off the inside of your skull before it exits your mouth. Ideally, the mouth should be primarily an articulator and not a resonator.

In this sense, the vocal folds can be likened to the strings on a guitar. There is a bit of difference in the diameter (thickness) of the low E and High E strings, though they are the same fundamental tone, just in different octaves. The strings are all technically the same length, but vary in diameter and tension, which produces the different tones. The thinner the string, the higher the pitch. However, the vocal folds also elongate (higher pitches) and shorten (lower pitches), unlike with a guitar.

Analog:

Ah, many of the reconcilable irreconcilables that is part of the slightly masochistic joy of singing! I have left many a lesson saying to myself "Wait...WHAT?!". I find it is best to just go with it, don't try to understand, just accept it. You'll save your sanity that way.

folks, call me stubborn, but i still really cannot understand why everyone deems it so bad, so scary, to force the voice? i really don't seem to find anything wrong with it at times. at times it almost feels like a mandatory requisite to acheive certain vocal configurations, sounds or heights. sure, if it physically hurts, stop by all means. but even with messa de voce, you really have to work those vocal muscles to do that exercise. can someone please tell me what you mean by force? what are you forcing? maybe i've never forced?

it really takes work to sing some songs and that's regardless of volume. i'd apprecaite any explanation.

[analog]

Video,

Only speaking for myself here...when I sang loud and/or high(prior to any training,) I would allow WAY too much air to pass through the vocal folds(this is basically CVT's definition of FORCING.) I could feel it on my hands when holding a microphone. The sound was certainly LOUD, but there was a slight "breathiness" to it.

Now when I sing, I can sing even LOUDER with seemingly NO "outside" breath. If I held a candle in front of me during a high loud extremely "twanged" note....the flame would not flicker.

It's quite possible that you are "naturally" an efficient singer. Also quite possible that what you are calling "forcing" is NOT what I am calling "forcing."

[Steven Fraser]

I've got a couple questions relating to rising the soft pallet:

1) What happens when you sing the "ng" sound? The mouth is being cut off and the air moves through the nasal cavity - right? Is the soft pallet coming down to cut off the mouth, or is the back of the tongue raising - or both? Should the Soft pallet still be as high as you can make it for optimum resonance?

2) What happens in the typical male voice when switching into the passagio from Eb4 to E4 in the traditional classical technique? Is the soft pallet changing positions? Is it coming down slightly? Or going up a little more? I certainly feels different and the sound changes - it feels like there is more nasal resonance to me.

guitartrek: 1) NG is pronounced by allowing the soft palate and the back of the tongue to close the mouth off from the pharynx. As to motions, both of what you describe can happen.... the back of the tongue can be quite high, as it would be for 'ee', or quite low, as it would be for 'ah', and anywhere between.

When ng is used in a syllable, think the vowel that either preceeds it or follows it.

2) Unless there is a technique issue, the soft palate does not change positions within the passaggio. yes, the sensations change, including (in many singers) the sensation of more nasal resonance. HOWEVER... those sensations are happening due to normal acoustics of the vocal tract responding to the harmonic structure of your singing. Those sensations tell you that you are singing an efficient, well-resonated tone. They are not the cause of it.

[VideoHere]

Video,

Only speaking for myself here...when I sang loud and/or high(prior to any training,) I would allow WAY too much air to pass through the vocal folds(this is basically CVT's definition of FORCING.) I could feel it on my hands when holding a microphone. The sound was certainly LOUD, but there was a slight "breathiness" to it.

Now when I sing, I can sing even LOUDER with seemingly NO "outside" breath. If I held a candle in front of me during a high loud extremely "twanged" note....the flame would not flicker.

It's quite possible that you are "naturally" an efficient singer. Also quite possible that what you are calling "forcing" is NOT what I am calling "forcing."

ah, i see what you mean. now..if i were to sing breathy (assuming i'm on the same page as you) i can't sustain a note or get any power. when i sing, i always seem to feel "pressurized" but i also expend physical effort when i sing. i gravitate towards difficult songs perhaps?

[analog]

Bob,

still not quite on the same page.

The "breathiness" of Forcing is not a falsetto breathiness. Think of it as a leak in a garden hose(where it attaches to the faucet.) There's basically too much water pressure(air flow) for the seal(vocal folds) to manage. You can still get a powerful water stream from the hose(loud note)...but it is not as strong/powerful as it would be w/out the leak.

[Steven Fraser]

Bob,

still not quite on the same page.

The "breathiness" of Forcing is not a falsetto breathiness. Think of it as a leak in a garden hose(where it attaches to the faucet.) There's basically too much water pressure(air flow) for the seal(vocal folds) to manage. You can still get a powerful water stream from the hose(loud note)...but it is not as strong/powerful as it would be w/out the leak.

Analog, Bob: In addition to what was just said, I'd like to add that forcing can can be done in a manner that does not sound breathy at all, and which does not waste air. It just results in too-much pressure.

I used to do this myself quite regularly in the years following my voice change, and it is a pernicious habit, as all sorts of muscular overcompensation takes place in the larynx, throat and tongue muscles as a result. Once these compensations are ingrained, it takes persistent attention to rid them. When present, they limit range, inhibit tone quality and reduce enjoyment. gack!

Bob, I am not sure if you force or not, but there are some good exercises/experiments you can use to determine if you are... as a kind of self-check. The core idea of them all is to produce vocal sounds with physical positions and approaches that do not stimulate the strong skeletal muscle actions which power exhalation.

Of them all, I think the best (accessible and easily-done) 2 are these:

1) The 'fog the glasses approach'. Take in a moderate, easy breath, and with your mouth open and jaw dropped, breathe out as slowly as you possibly can onto the palm of your hand, with the palm about 1/2 inch in front of your mouth. You will feel very warm air, at no appreciable speed on your palm. This is even slower than the breath that would fog glasses if you held them in the same position. An outward breath of this type will last 10 seconds or more. As you repeat this, extend your awareness into the muscle actions throughout your body, and be particularly aware of how little effort is required to accomplish it.

After you have repeated this a few times, in the middle of one of the slow exhalations, say a short, soft 'uh' a few times in an easy range, again... without extending any effort. The onset (start) of the vowel is the moment of truth, where (if there are any habits to overpressure) you will feel your body respond with more energy to 'support' your voice. A very little of this is ok, but that is all that is needed. If the onset is at all breathy, its too much. At this dynamic level, and for this exercise, we want a clear, soft onset.

When done along these lines, it feels a bit like you are not supporting your voice at all... that you are just making it at the level of the larynx, and with an overall energy level that is sensed as much like the warm-slow outward breath of the earlier part of the exercise. Some people even report that they feel like the air is going _IN_ to them while they do it.

2) the 'slouching in the chair/watching TV approach'. This one is best done with a beer and some Fritos Sit in a comfy chair, and make no effort at posture. Slouch. Even put your feet up on an ottoman. With your fingers, test the muscle action of your abdominals by slightly pressing in to the left or right of your belly button... for this exercise, the muscles should be soft... a jellybelly. The overall attitude is 'I do not care'.

After suitable quantities of beer and Fritos (kidding), and while continuing to test the abdominal muscle action with the the fingers... say a clear soft 'uh', while retaining the jellybelly feeling. Particularly, be sensitive to whether your abdomen 'pulls in', or 'pushes up'. Any action at all which you feel should be very slight and of minimal effort. If you get more than that, its too much.

For both exercises 1 and 2, the next step is to siren at the same (low) energy level through the lower voice, in a manner that is as soft as you can while still staying clear. As this becomes more familiar, you can extend the sirens into the middle voice. IF you have a tendency to force, its likely that you will sense the place where it starts to happen in the siren. Go back, re-establish the fog-the-glasses or jelly belly, and repeat.

As I said, I do not know if forcing is an issue, or not. However, these two exercises will help you determine if you are. In any case, I think they are very useful for the large voice wishing to learn just how little work is needed to make the voice function at softer dynamic levels.

[VideoHere]

steve and analog....as always, thank you!!

i have tried these and i would say i am definitely not pushing or forcing. i think the issue is my having a hard time explaining what i mean by "forcing." it's hard to articlate. and perhaps it's a liability of singing rock?

ken tamplin, (if you're out there, i think you're great, but i need to use your post for help explaining what i mean.)

listen to this video of ken.. this to me is a sound/song that requires a lot of energy to sing well..it's high, dynamic, and super strong of a vocal.

do you see at the end how he is clearly physically tired to a degree after singng it? this is what i'm getting at. that is expending effort and can you possibly sing that song any other way and sound like that?

that's my question.

[chele1000]

Ken Tamplin can definitely sing.......high...strong...passionate...control...he has "it" as well. ...the X factor....the whole package..and he presents it quite well. Just watching some videos on You Tube!

He is the only singer that I've seen so far that lifts his tongue that high while singing. I find that really strange. He always keeps his throat open tho.

He is winded because he does put alot of effort into his singing. He uses his whole body when he sings...especially those high notes. See how he is using his face muscles as well. He has total control of every move. He knows his body and what it can do...and not do I'm sure.

In my opinion, he is like a professional athlete and has trained until he has mastered his craft. You want to do that, you need to train like a professional. Unfortunately, most of us have to pay bills in the meantime.

I get winded when singing some songs because there is alot of effort to present it and give it justice. For example...."Lights" - Journey..in the bridge. That part takes effort. But it's not forcing.

Jogging requires effort...running requires more effort. ..more breath control...more preparation...

anyway....

[analog]

Excellent reply Chele1000!

I took lessons from Ken and can attest to his insane prowess. He's also one helluva GREAT dude! Everything Chele said is spot on. Ken's technique is flawless.

Video...Ken will tell you that the secret is INSANE SUPPORT(among other things.)! Being a follower of CVT , his "foundation" for singing is exactly what CVT promotes...and what any great technique promotes:

1) Support(truly regulating the air flow with the body/holding back the air.) For high loud stuff...requires a LOT of energy.

2) Open Throat/Resonance placement(CVT would call it the "bite")

3) TWANG TWANG TWANG

4) Postural alignment

To Video:

I recommended Ken to you a long time ago. I think it would be worth your time to give him a shout. Perfect teacher for the style you wanna sing.