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Vocal Fry + normal note?

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p_n_g
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I don't know that it's a whole octave and the sound is distorted. No doubt, you were having to just about swallow the mic to pick up the sound. Maybe it was a matter of dropping in an out of formant.

Neat sound.

I'm an old hard-headed fool. I have to be able to do a note melodically, over the sound of an instrument in a regular room or I cannot consider the sound as useful in my range.

But I like experimenting, too.

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Guys... this is just fry... Its good for many things, you can sing with it, but really is not something sooo special.

If you can place your voice forward, you can control it enough to be usefull on the low end. Do take care, as it has a very special tendency to relax your voice, if you overdo it while singing, you will be effectivelly warming down if you dont keep track of placement and at least a bit of support to keep your voice high.

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Actually this is not just vocal fry. Vocal fry sits below modal voice and there are no perceivable pitch and only the TA is activated. In the clip there is too little transglottal airflow which creates perturbation and thereby subharmonics. This is why you hear two different sounds.

This is one tone relaxing the vocal folds a little so that the vibration is not uniform.

I thought that is what vocal fry is.

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The first part of the video pitches a B2, so I'll go from there

Acoustics says;

H1, H2, H3, H4 .. etc ...

H1 - fundemental 1*

H2 - 2*

H3 - 3*

So by this - we can determine a note and whether the note follows acoustics or added frequences such as distortion / other noise.

The first tone is a B2

H1 - 123Hz, H2 - 248Hz, H3 - 374Hz, H4 - 501, H5 - 630Hz, H6 - 754Hz

The second is a B1

H1 (whilst low) - 62Hz, H2 - 123Hz, H3 - 190Hz, H4 - 253Hz, H5 - 317Hz, H6 - 376Hz. (so close enough)

Compare them against a tone generator, you'll hear the difference (i'm sure you can hear the differences). Place one at 62Hz and the 2nd at 124Hz and compare them to the 2 tones.

The graphs;

I originally thought whilst watching was a switching of odd vs even harmonics (as the graph was too close together for me to distinguish, I then changed the bottom band limit and saw the extra harmonics.) I don't think there are "sub" harmonics, they are actual H1, H2 .. etc as per 62Hz note. Whether this is an octave undertone as per lower extension, lower extension, fry is up for debate.

I must learn to size the graphs from img files (so I don't have white space)!!, if anyone knows - please advise.

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google it, I linked one of these papers on that old Axl thread, I think even Wikipaedia has this kind of basic info. Still, I am much more interested in a fry without pitch, just cant wait to hear it :).

On the other hand, we can realize that what happens is that F0 ceases being the fundamental, since it becomes subsonic, thus the also common name "pulse" register, and something else assumes the job. This something else is what carries pitch information in the given sample and being capable of such, defines a register, an emission pattern, which is not modal and is based on pulses.

If you can HEAR it as sound, there is pitch, period.

Now, if I was clever, I could write that fry does not have pitch info, and design a revolutionary technique system that allows you to go in full voice down to whatever low note you can reach, I would not mention that the only revolution made is changing the meaning of a word though... Clever, but not quite ethic in my opinion. :) I could also create a new super register, the mixed fry! Ohhh the possibilities!! Maybe twanged cry with cover! How about a curbed cry metal-like?

Again, there is nothing special in this: fry/not fry, no matter, train modal voice, control the middle of your voice, solve passagio, and this becomes a matter of trying and experimenting for one or two days to become usefull. Its really simple to produce it and, well, fry will be your life time partner on warm downs, even if you did not want it ;).

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Thanks for the analyzing of my voice.

Just a side note -> What are you using to display the spectrogram? Is there some free software for this?

There are some debate about if this is fry or not?

As you see the topic title -> Vocal fry+normal note, that I'm sure it is vocal fry, my question was about how this is produced.

So sing a normal note, about a fifth higher then your lower note.

Now start a scale downward, and you'll switch into the normal fry register, and reach the same note an octave lower. This kind of fry will have no power, and will be based on minimal amount of airflow. You'll notice that if you want to sing it louder the fry disappears.

Now experiment switching this two - the normal and fry note.

I just tried to combine these two - the fry+normal note. I'm using a big amount of airflow, so I can do it louder then my normal note, I can do it to not sound so harsh ( I suppose it is because of the upper harmonics ), so I can use it as a normal note.

So, in my opinion this is not just a simple vocal fry, but examples are better then words, so I'll post later what I think is the difference. So there will be a normal note, a fried ( octave lower ) note, a combined one, and a normal one but an octave lower.

I'll do it when I'm home where I can feel free to sing and record it :P

I don't think that it cause vocal warmdowns, at least my experience was the opposite, but it is possible that somebody else could experience this.

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That still sounds to me like the same note with a different tone. Not an octave lower. About like the difference between a bell and a guitar. They can make sound on the same pich but have different wave characeristics.

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p_n_g:

BRAVO!!!!! BRAVO!!!! BRAVO!!!! YOU DID IT!

I got a real thrill hearing this in your voice

This is a _SPLENDID_ example of the lower extension for someone just learning it. Tuning is fine, glottal adjustment is pretty good (not pressed or breathy)!

Now... next step: After making the jump downward, take the lower production and siren it up slowly to the original note. You will feel the place where you 'roll' back up into your usual range.

Repeat, and only siren up until it shifts, and then siren right back down. These two things... the transition into, and out of, the lower region, are sensations that you will want to be very familiar to you.

I recommend spending about 10 mins a day on this until you can do it with confidence. Then, begin practicing with a bit more twang as you make the lower jump.

Again, BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO!!!!

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Stew, man, I missed you. You are one of the few that can give a helpful critique, pinpoint which word in a lyric where someone had a problem and then, give an exercise or idea to fix that. I have been unfairly holding others up to your level of ability and astuteness (or should that be a-stew-tness?) that's just not right. So, I also beg the forgiveness of others.

Nice to read your words of wisdom, again.

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p_n_g:

BRAVO!!!!! BRAVO!!!! BRAVO!!!! YOU DID IT!

I got a real thrill hearing this in your voice

This is a _SPLENDID_ example of the lower extension for someone just learning it. Tuning is fine, glottal adjustment is pretty good (not pressed or breathy)!

Now... next step: After making the jump downward, take the lower production and siren it up slowly to the original note. You will feel the place where you 'roll' back up into your usual range.

Repeat, and only siren up until it shifts, and then siren right back down. These two things... the transition into, and out of, the lower region, are sensations that you will want to be very familiar to you.

I recommend spending about 10 mins a day on this until you can do it with confidence. Then, begin practicing with a bit more twang as you make the lower jump.

Again, BRAVO, BRAVO, BRAVO!!!!

Ok Really! what am I missing? I do not hear an octave drop. I hear the same note only raspy. I can do this in my sleep ( and usually do ). If this is the start of obtaining a solid lower register ( I know bad word. I don't know what else to call it right now.) I would like to know how. ( I am not being sarcastic. I am really interested).

Steven, I am not doubting you. I just really want to know what I am missing.

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Ok Really! what am I missing? I do not hear an octave drop. I hear the same note only raspy. I can do this in my sleep ( and usually do ). If this is the start of obtaining a solid lower register ( I know bad word. I don't know what else to call it right now.) I would like to know how. ( I am not being sarcastic. I am really interested).

Steven, I am not doubting you. I just really want to know what I am missing.

MDEW:

I listened to the recording, and then ran it through my favorite spectrum analyzer, which confirmed what my ear told me.

The fundamental frequency drops an octave, and all the harmonics are in the right place. Its a real note.

What makes this sound 'raspy', perhaps, is that its not yet twangy, the harmonics which are aligning with the formants are higher in the series, and the open phase/closed phase timing is not quite right yet.

But this is the real deal, and quite worthwhile to develop, especially for choral and gospel singing.

If you want to see the spectrograms I generated, let me know.

Oh, and if you can record yourself doing this, in your sleep or otherwise ( :-) ) please post it. I would be happy to give it a listen.

I hope this is helpful.

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:) As soon as I get my recording equipment back together I plan on posting a lot of strange noises that I do and just don't know if they contain valid resources for me or anyone else.

In the mean time I will study this sound and find out what I am missing in it.

And I know that I sounded sarcastic in my post but did not intend to.

Thank you.

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Thanks for the analyzing of my voice.

Just a side note -> What are you using to display the spectrogram? Is there some free software for this?

p_n_g: The screen snaps are from the program called 'Spectragram'. It used to be free on the internet. He took screen snaps and then edited them with MS Paint.

Its what I used to check your tone, too.

Here is a link to a downloadable zip of it. Click on the link, and then when you get the dialog box, select 'save'. You can then save it to your disk.

http://api.ning.com:80/files/HFPFfWUfWqPNjPZ94nUkKJG68aQrKe7fqOvi3yBc0LiHmy6JovhLwfAA0w2udBwzq2H90PpA8ot7uhqxBfLNzPYcpT0A1YXP/Gram16_dist.zip

When you have it saved, go to the directory, extract it, and then go into the directory it creates (without the .zip suffix.). Start the exe, Press F1 for parameters, accept the settings, and you'll get realtime display of the harmonic structure of the notes you sing or speak.

I hope this is helpful. I've been using it for 5 years now, and is an excellent way to wrap your mind around harmonics and formants.

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:) As soon as I get my recording equipment back together I plan on posting a lot of strange noises that I do and just don't know if they contain valid resources for me or anyone else.

In the mean time I will study this sound and find out what I am missing in it.

And I know that I sounded sarcastic in my post but did not intend to.

Thank you.

MDEW: I did not hear any sarcasm. FYI, I posted a link to the spectrographic software I used in my analysis. It will help you in studying your own noises :-) I have used it for years to study mine :-)

edit: So we can have another example of what this part of the male voice sounds like, a very good example, here is a youtube link to a recording by Thurl Ravenscroft of the famous song 'Asleep in the deep'.

You may recogize this voice. He played the Grinch in the original animated version of 'How the Grinch Stole Christmas', and was the voice of Tony the Tiger ads for many years.

While he is not a profundo bass, his lower range is very good, solid down to about D2. The last note of this song goes to C2, and you can hear the tone quality difference between it and the D2 that immediately preceeds it in the downward scale. That C2 is in his lower extension.

I hope this is helpful.

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So, I've put an other sample. I've tried to make easy to differentiate between normal voice, fry voice, and this strange voice

https://www.box.com/s/5g3woc9obfpbb8esmbwl

It is an A major scale , it goes like this :

A2-G#2-F#2-E2-D2-C#2-B1-pause-A1( with "standard" fry )-A2 ( normal )-A1( st. fry )-A2 ( normal ) - pause - A1+A2

Maybe you could hear the difference between the A1, and the A1+A2.

Also, I don't know if it is noticeable, but for the standard fry A1 I almost ate my microphone, but for tha A1+A2, I kept a good distance.

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I have to agree with wikipedia not always being an accurate source. At least two times, information was printed incorrectly and the actual subject involved asked for a correction and was denied. One was a celebrity who's birthday was listed incorrectly, even though he had the birth certificate to prove it.

It gave me the notion that wikipedia data is whatever the editors of the site want it to be, rather than what is actually documented. But, they could be right on other things. But when it comes to things about the voice, I pretty much always defer to whatever Steven says. He has this habit of being right.

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So, I've put an other sample. I've tried to make easy to differentiate between normal voice, fry voice, and this strange voice

https://www.box.com/s/5g3woc9obfpbb8esmbwl

It is an A major scale , it goes like this :

A2-G#2-F#2-E2-D2-C#2-B1-pause-A1( with "standard" fry )-A2 ( normal )-A1( st. fry )-A2 ( normal ) - pause - A1+A2

Maybe you could hear the difference between the A1, and the A1+A2.

Also, I don't know if it is noticeable, but for the standard fry A1 I almost ate my microphone, but for tha A1+A2, I kept a good distance.

p_n_g: So good, so far.

Next time you post, would you do the octave-down skip (using A1+A2 as your earlier notation indicates) and then sing up the scale using that production?

I hope you are really jazzed by this. Its very fun to explore, and the first time you let it out to play in Choir, your teacher will notice, I promise :-)

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p_n_g

Sounds very good.

Yes - what you are doing is dropping the fundamental down exactly one octave. You are doing this by creating a kind of, what CVT would call, "creak". It's really pretty simple, the folds go from vibrating (or touching each other) 124 times per second to 62 times per second. You're doing this by altering the shape of the folds so that they touch "every other" time instead of "every" time.

This drop of an exact octave happens a lot when people are descenging from head to chest - when the voice "cracks" - the folds are not gradually thickening, but abruptly thickening. The vibration pattern starts becoming irregular - they may go from touching every time to every other time, or every time, then skiping one time, then back to every time to skipping two times, creating a random distortion. The result is what CVT calls "creak", and CVT advocates that you make sure you have this totally under control.

Of course what you are doing is not a random creak - it is more pure - going from hitting every time sustained, to every other time sustaing. And you can control it well enough to make the "every other time" pattern the new fundamental.

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I have a hard time conveying ideas so bear with me for a moment.

When you are creating a solid tone and the fundamental tone is A2 and you introduce this rasp/creak to be 1/2 the vibration of the original tone, the fundamental will change?

When I do this the raspy soud is louder than the underlying solid tone. Is the underlying solid tone now the fundamental? Or is the louder raspy tone the fundamental?

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