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How do you review? Do you consider your criteria responsible?

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Well i Said you failed as à teacher wich i still belive you did in that case. Does this mean your à bad teacher? No... I dont belive so, I consider teaching like a skill. À great teacher can make great work with even the worst students, so when you as à teacher says à student dont have "it" is also à reflection of you as a teacher.

Thats my point :)

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A group of monks were shown a big block of stone and asked what did they see. The reply was "an Elephant."

An Elephant? I only see a stone. Eventually it was carved by a sculpter into an elephant. Wow...how did you do that? He replied that the Elephant was always there and all he had to do was remove everything that wasn't an Elephant.

With that same philosphy, I am not really a "teacher." I am only a guide (sculpter). I chip away at you like the stone, revealing what is already there. The true You. However, sometimes the truth hurts. And sometimes you fight against the chipping. We never want to give up anything we only want to recieve. I teach against that. You must give up all you have. If your question is "when do I get my next belt?" that is the wrong attitude. You don't get anything, you only empty yourself. After that the rewards are many. Maybe not trophies and acalades but personal triumphs. There is no fight to win other than one. That fight is with yourself.

If the truth revealed after the chipping away hurts too much, that is when you need to pick up the slack and help the Elephant come out. Start finding your own way. My job is to make you a better you. To make you better than me. But I only point to the way. The work is on you. The success is on you. As is the failure.

So while I guide along the good points and compliment when necessary, I also shoot down the bad points and I definitely don't hold anyones hand or coddle them. I make them work. Whether they are learning martial arts, singing or house painting. I teach them how to teach themselves. The lesson starts the day you speak to me about joining my class.

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I think if you're crap.. you're crap.. if you're good.. you're good... if you have potential.. then you have potential..

Telling someone different doesn't accomplish anything..

I don't think we are talking to (for the most part) kids here... so ego's may get hurt, but who cares... If we were all that great, we'd be signing multimillion dollar contracts and not visiting forums such as this..

It's all based on what we like to hear, because only a selected few may be qualified to give a proper analysis of the voice -- the rest is just opinions....

So in that light, just be honest... don't have to sugar coat it, but don't have to be a prick about it either.

If you think it was bad.. don't just say " that sucked ".. tell them 'why' you thought it sucked....

If it was good... don't just say " that rocked "... tell them 'why' it was good...

that's how we are going to learn and progress. As mentioned, we are not professional vocal coaches here, and even ones that may visit this board , we have no idea what qualifies them as such (anyone can make that claim - just look at youtube)...

A lot of energy is gone into this topic, but it just seems everyone is repeating the same thing, but just saying it differently....

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So, does one need to be a teacher to truly critique another?

If you, Tommy, have a black belt student and he can claim a certain number of years (verifiable is a secondary issue at this point. But he did get that colored belt from somewhere, good or bad.) And he does something wrong or weak or a bit off. And you point that out. And he says, "No, I didn't."

In this forum, especially in this critique section, reviews from actual teachers of singing are quite rare (at least those we have recognized as teachers and have represented themselves as teachers.) One review, with good here, work on that there, was from Robert Lunte, himself. And he did it without saying that if you can't take that instruction, then go do something else besides singing.

Almost all the reviews in here are of us amateurs reviewing each other.

So, let's revisit the dojo. You are in a dojo and do something another student thinks is wrong (and the other student may be right in the assessment, too.) And you don't like what they say and they say, well, then, karate is not for you.

In that case, I would have to echo Felipe's advice, "Get a coach." And I would add to that advice, "Listen to that coach and not to other students. Especially if you are paying the coach and not the fellow student."

Yes, there are coaches and singing instructors that will say that if you cannot handle what they have to tell, that you should seek help elsewhere or do something else, entirely. I don't have an issue with that. And really, even with another amateur saying that, as well.

I, as ronws, do not think that is a valid way for me to help someone, even if that is the help that they need. Then, again, I am not a teacher of singing. Maybe that's the difference, in which case, my opinion on that kind of statement may have limited to no value, which I have already stated before. Does it mean that I am doing a disservice to the art of singing? I don't think so.

Back to the dojo. Obviously, some basic level of physical conditioning is needed to train. No question. So, is the bare minimum 100 push-ups? By who's definition? Not that doing 100 push-ups is bad or harsh or unnecessary. But can you honestly say that doing 100 of those is what makes you an awesome fighter or even an awesome teacher of fighting skills? I am not, repeat not, validating the coddling of someone who cannot keep up with someone of your age. I still use a push lawn-mower. My father-in-law pushed one up to his early 80's. If he can, I should have another 30 years, myself.

I totally understand mindset. Many of my family and friends served in the military, some in special forces. One of my favorites from the SEALS is "accomplish the objective regardless of obstacles." Followed by "the only easy day was yesterday." And, of course, "it pays to be a winner. Second place is first place for losers."

One friend was a sargeant in the Army and served in the Honor Guard and served at the Tomb of the Uknown Soldier in Arlington, Virginia. They are not required to stand the post when a hurricane blows up the eastern seaboard, as it does from time to time. To date, not one Honor Guard member has ever abandoned post in bad weather. And never will. They march the post, regardless day or night or weather.

It's the same drive, in a way, that you look for in a student. It's the same thing I would expect in someone interested in singing and have said so, but in a different way. My expression is that you sing because you must and cannot conceive of not singing. If you have the drive, the "work" is a pleasure, no matter how long it takes you.

Maybe telling someone they should go and do something is like a lock on a door. It only keeps honest people out.

Jokes aside, no one has told me, so far, that I should find something else to do besides singing. I have been told that I should start over, from the basics.

And any advice, we can take it or leave it. The biggest struggle for me is not singing or changing how I sing something. It is learning to achieve balance in reviewing and being reviewed. Which is mental.

So, I should amend my earlier post. Though I may not tell someone that they should do something else besides singing, I can understand, at least from the model of karate instruction, why someone else might say that.

As far as putting it into a context I can understand, Tommy, good job.

:D

Sorry, couldn't help myself .....

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Back to the dojo. Obviously, some basic level of physical conditioning is needed to train. No question. So, is the bare minimum 100 push-ups? By who's definition? Not that doing 100 push-ups is bad or harsh or unnecessary. But can you honestly say that doing 100 of those is what makes you an awesome fighter or even an awesome teacher of fighting skills?

That wasn't my point. The number is meaningless. We didn't even do 100 we only did 50. What I said in that quote was that it was a test. I was testing him to see if he just at least attempted it without a word of complaint or if he was already going to give me five different excuses why he may not be able to do it. I only want you to try. If you can't you can't. That's fine. I don't need the song and dance first. That was my point. That already tells me a lot about the student. My whole point of my post wasn't about what one dojo does compared to another. It was about my way and how I don't buy the "hurt feelings and giving up because someone was pushed to hard" attitude. There are many ways. I understand that. I have my way. I trained very strict traditionally but I have also trained in more modern methods of boxing as well as MMA. On my buisiness card it says " Training concepts for the progressive martial artist" "where old meets new." I keep progressing and modernizing but I don't give up the old ways either. It's a blend. But it's tough. It builds character. (in my opinion).

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Owen, thanks for the response. I understand your point and I agree. However I feel my point is being misunderstood by others. That is fine and I don't see a need to push the issue :) Getting a point across in text can be a daunting task especially with space constrictions. Some things require a book :D

But the first thing is I should point out that I'm not comparing teaching martial arts to teaching singing. I was only using an example to illustrate my feelings on harsh reviewing as compared to what seems to be a modern way of rewarding. However it seems, probably due to poor writing style that I have been interpreted as being too harsh or only "one way." I only use a certain philosophy as a base as well as some old school methods. But Whatever I use is just that. Tools I "use." They aren't written in stone unchangeable ways. I remain progressive. However I am still against babying anyone. that only helps create dependent babies.

I do believe in being hard when it comes to mistakes or in the case of something like singing where "hard" might not fit, strict. But at the same time that doesn't mean I don't reward the good points. Actually I seek to strengthen those areas as I try to fix the bad spots. But my point was more about the dog training theory. I can see how it works for dogs but with a person who you can reason with I believe giving them a dog biscut everytime the perform isn't the way. Reward the good but make no bones about it when it comes to the bad. I believe in "push." When I train anyone i don't just bark orders. I do everything right along with them. I don't make anyone do anything I have never done or still do. If I'm 25 years older than them and they can't do it I think that gives them incentive as well as a sure sign that they are lacking and need to pick it up.

You have to teach students how to teach themselves.

I only use this as an example as I did in my above postings. I wouldn't apply this "as is' to singing instruction. However I would still base my teaching methods on a similar philosophy. Tough where it needs it and boost the good. But never feel you shouldn't be firm and push the student to push themselves. And yes Owen, of course you have to teach this to the student also. But I don't believe in being a crutch or holding hands. That was my only point. It may have gotten carried away....probably by me. A bit verbose maybe :D

But still not enough words to get my point clear. Even the rib thing. That wasn't a purposeful action and there are a lot more details too much to print here. But believe me there was a lesson there. The connection here was missed. Hey, it is a contact environment and it involves fighting. These things are common. If you want to know how to protect your head from getting hit you will have to experience getting hit first. Bloody noses and maybe broken ones go with the territory.

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And I can see that my information about operant conditioning, at times, misconstrued, because it is also used in successful dog training. And no one wants to be compared to a dog. So, I hurt some feelings. It also highlights the notion that some may have that dogs are not thinking creatures that learn and teach themselves things. Please, believe me, they do. I know whereof I speak, I have a dog. And he has taught himself a few things.

The upshot is, if you don't want it bad enough, go and do something else.

But is it necessary to say that to someone the first time they ask for help? Or, can it help to point a way? If they choose not to take that way, I have done what I can do. I don't feel the need to be harsh.

And before anyone thinks I was coddled as a child, I would beg to differ. When I was 7, my brother and I were at a babysitter's place. We were playing in the dirt. I was not supposed to do so, having asthma at the time. But I forgot. We were taking a tupperware lid and putting dirt on it and throwing it like a frisbee, and watching the dirt fly. It was neat, for a 7 year old. Our mother and step-father came by to pick us up.

When we got home, my step-father (first one) gave me somewhere between 15 and 20 lashes with one of those wide and thick leather belts that was popular in the 70's. He asked me if I was going to do it, again. Like an idiot, I answered truthfully. Thinking I was a kid and prone to forget things in the midst of play, I said, "Yes sir, probably so." He thought I was being flippant.

So, I got another 15 - 20 lashes (I was losing count.) He asked again and this time I said "no." (Learn to tell people what they want to hear.)

When it was over, I had black and blue bruises on my rump and in spots, it was blistered and peeling. To give you some perspective, I was wearing cotton underwear and regulation navy dungarees, cut for a kid. I could not sit down for a week. I literally had to eat standing up.

How's that for old school? :)

Years later, as an electrician, I have been paid well for getting in the dirt. So, did that aversion therapy to messing with dirt work?

I'm not asking for sympathy. But I have seen both sides of the aversive thingy and it's not always effective.

But I can understand why others would use such aversion in steering others away from one's field of endeavor. It's rewarding.

:)

I know that one will get some heat.

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And I can see that my information about operant conditioning, at times, misconstrued, because it is also used in successful dog training. And no one wants to be compared to a dog. So, I hurt some feelings. It also highlights the notion that some may have that dogs are not thinking creatures that learn and teach themselves things. Please, believe me, they do. I know whereof I speak, I have a dog. And he has taught himself a few things.

No feelings hurt here. :) I didn't feel compared to a dog at all. I was only addressing the concept of operant training and the comparison between animals and humans. And while dogs may be thinking creatures, which I wouldn't disagree with, they aren't "reasoning" which is what I said. You can't reason with an animal about what they may be doing wrong or right and why you might be hard on them and how they might see the benefits later in life. As you could do with a human. You could be tough on a human and explain to him why. An animal only knows he is being scolded or rewarded. He may know why to an extant, but not the reasoning behind the why. If you rewarded him every time he crapped on the floor or bit someone he would think that was a good thing. A human might do it too if he was trained that way by reward since childhood, but he would still know it was wrong by seeing that he was the only one doing that, and that others frowned on it.

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Let me derail a bit. Dogs don't think what they are doing is wrong. Humans think it is wrong. Perception. My dog liked to jump on people as a greeting. In doggy-speak, he was doing nothing wrong. But I didn't want him jumping on people. Not everyone is big and tough like me to be able to handle it.

Scruffing and pinning him (positive punishment) didn't do it because he did not identify it as a punishment, no matter how "butch" I was. Giving him a reward for disengaging from that is what stopped it.

But there are differences, I will grant you. Dogs mostly live in the now. You cannot punish them for something they did 3 seconds ago. Humans, with the kind of language we have, can recall the sin and associate it a little more easily than a dog but the process is the same.

For example, your dog pees on the carpet. You call them to you. They come to you. You hit them, thinking that you punished them for peeing on the carpet. No, you just punished them for coming to you when you called. To the dog, the peeing and the return to you are two separate events. Because of language disparity.

But don't worry, I will let this go. For me, it's more rewarding to move on than to keep positioning over this "bone."

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But don't worry, I will let this go. For me, it's more rewarding to move on than to keep positioning over this "bone."

That's ok. You made my point. The reward thing works different for animals and humans. :)

I don't disagree with the reward thing. Only with it replacing being hard on the mistakes. I think there is a middle road and the bad points need to be made example of while reinforcing the right things. I think some people start to get too reward heavy. When someone is failing at something they are rewarded for giving a good effort. I don't go for that. I think they may need to push for more effort. Then "mention" (not reward) the effort, support the idea that they can do this, with a bit more work, bolster the spirit and push onward. But the mistakes need to be highlighted. (imo):)

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I agree with this. Point out the faults. Also support the progress. If there is no progress point that out.

It still may not be lack of effort but lack of understanding the suggestions.

Long thread. Are we progressing?

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I agree with this. Point out the faults. Also support the progress. If there is no progress point that out.

It still may not be lack of effort but lack of understanding the suggestions.

And that is what I have been trying to say, and operant conditioning best describes that, and I fear I may have gone over some heads with that and should have kept my mouth shut (and yes, I have read some of the major papers of Karen Pryor on the subject.)

While, yes, correction can be somewhat effective as a training tool, It's only 1/4 of what is needed to learn. That what is rewarding is what gets reinforced.

Look, you tell someone their vowel is too wide and let's say they stop that. Where to next? Like a rat in a maze, you keep bumping into walls that tell you "no" until you finally, accidently, wander into the next section. And yes, I am now comparing us to rats and that will hurt some feelings, too. And the rat will not learn to get through the maze as fast as if little rewards are placed along the way or if the smell of cheese is prevalent. Which is a reward.

I absolutely guarantee you that if I could come up with the magic pill exercise that would allow you to sound like anyone to Luciano Pavarotti to Axl Rose, and I mean sound just exactly like them, to where even you could confuse the original singer, I would not be able to produce copies of the program fast enough and I would get rich. Why? Because, for some, the reward of being able to produce those sounds just exactly like the original is so rewarding, it is more rewarding than whatever exercise it took to get there.

Other times, we are using negative punishment and negative reward with each other. You know you are doing good when the criticisms decrease. Or at least the criticism is about something other than a technical singing issue. That is where the absence of a correction is the reward. Technically, that's called negative punishment, where the removal or absence of an aversive results in a desired behavior being reinforced, such as being on pitch or not sounding as weak as before or whatever. This is how one is often trained in the military. The object of learning one's skills is to hear the sweet sound of silence of your instructor shutting up and not complaining. My employers are military vets and that is how they trained me in my job. I learned and strove to be better to reduce my stress and theirs.

They are good people, by the way, and complimentary. And whenever they compliment me, I make a bone-headed mistake. So, I've asked them not to do that, so much. :lol:

I totally agree in the value of getting a coach. And for more reasons than others may have, or at least reasons I can understand. A coach can hear you, live and in person. I know this is going to garner some disagreement and I can't help that. Equipment does make a difference. If it didn't, then one could get coaching over a cellphone. Or, by way of sound file. There are sometimes physical cues to what you are doing that could use improvement or changing. Things are just not as apparent over the phone or through a sound file, or even on a video. The instructor needs to see you breathe, stand, sit, whatever.

That being said, there are some things that you can do that are wrong and are quite evident, regardless of what you are recording on. Off pitch is off pitch, whether you are singing through a 30o dollar mic or a soup can with a string.

But, and especially here, in this forum, rather than turn someone away and tell them singing may not be for them, I would at least recommend some kind of training. And, if they have the money, I would recommend 4 Pillars. There are a number of systems out there, and other good teachers, ways of looking at things. I am most comfortable recommending 4 Pillars. I think it is a good system and the students thereof are always, without exception, astounding. And any learning situation is a partnership of student and teacher.

And it's probably just my perspective but I'm just not into turning people away. I'm more along the lines of you try to keep up and if you can't, sorry about your luck. Which is not to be meant to be callous or cavalier. You either want this, or you don't.

Now, for the orangutang in the middle of the room. Sound ideal. Even within the world of opera, there are different sound ideals, and many instructors teach from their own set of values. For the love of God, I ask that someone else here read the memoirs of Renee Fleming so that I don't have to be the only one familiar with what I am talking about.

She sings one way for one coach, for the longest time and it fits certain roles she was performing. Then she goes to another coach who says that what she has been doing is wrong. And on and on.

So, in pop and rock, which is a different sound ideal than most of opera, at least in my perception, what is considered good singing? Bon Jovi is singing clean these days. I watched him on the concert for relief of victims of Hurricane Sandy. Gone is that rasp. Replaced by a cleaner sound and yes, more head voice. And also more dynamics, as well. And he is not singing all the highest parts. His vowels are staying more constant, providing more legato. And being in his 50's, I expect that this better technique will keep him singing at least another 20 years, professionally, if he so desires. But what about viewing him from the sound ideal that one should have rasp to sing "Living on a Prayer"? Then he has "betrayed the sound ideal."

And he would probably tell you in his NJ accent, to go and take a hike somewhere.

So, I don't know if we have defined in this forum, the sound ideal against which we could measure any performance. About the only thing we could do is pitch perception and what we think is the right volume and tone for a part of a song.

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I absolutely guarantee you that if I could come up with the magic pill exercise that would allow you to sound like anyone to Luciano Pavarotti to Axl Rose, and I mean sound just exactly like them, to where even you could confuse the original singer, I would not be able to produce copies of the program fast enough and I would get rich. Why? Because, for some, the reward of being able to produce those sounds just exactly like the original is so rewarding, it is more rewarding than whatever exercise it took to get there.

Oddly enough, believe it or not I am the oddball here. I don't like magic pills but would rather do the work needed to get where I'm going. It always makes me feel more like I own what I am good at because I worked at for it.

This is how one is often trained in the military.

Depending on what you are teaching I believe in this method. However, it is too much for some things. But even then the philosophy of the method and fundamentals are still valid.

I expect that this better technique will keep him singing at least another 20 years, professionally, if he so desires. But what about viewing him from the sound ideal that one should have rasp to sing "Living on a Prayer"? Then he has "betrayed the sound ideal."

I always find this idea humorous. Comparisons to the original etc. Geez, I've seen Zep 3 times and each time they sounded different. Most bands live perform different (live) versions of their songs. That is called artistry. Some are disappointed when they get to a concert and the songs don't sound just like the album. Personally I love the different versions. I don't think I have ever heard "Whole Lotta Love" played the same as the original. Not even the main riff.

But even more humorous is that many times no one cares that the original band is playing the song different and the vocals aren't even the same. But heaven forbid if you do it different in a cover :rolleyes:

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I made the mistake of reading the history of Led Zep, as both told by their manager, Richard Cole, and from interviews with the members, most notably, Jimmy Page. And each performance was an original work of art. They never played the songs the same way twice. Even the recording on the album was mostly due to how they felt that day, though Page obssessed later over the production values.

But, for example, "Stairway to Heaven," was recorded pretty much in one shot. By that, I mean, they didn't do re-write after re-write. What you hear is pretty much the original arrangement from rehearsal. And the solo that became so iconic, that's what Jimmy felt like, on that day. Live, he never plays it exactly like what is on the album. And that influenced me, as well.

I thought I was the only one to value that fluidity.

So, for being honest, Tommy, and putting your soul out there, good job.

:D

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I am beginning to wonder if we may need to critique the critic. :D I think some people show how amateurish they are (no offense anyone) when I read things like Halford uses more rasp or Dio uses a bit more power in that chorus or any similar comparisons. Say what? I usually have a big grin reading things like this as if I am watching children imitate adults.

How about the Five Finger Death Punch cover of Bad Company? If they posted that here I'm sure they'd get good marks for it but I bet my bottom dollar someone would say Paul Rogers sings it cleaner.

I suppose someone once gave Joe Cocker crap for sounding so different than the Beatles. Oh no what about Jimi? That sounds nothing like Bob Dylan dude!! :rolleyes:

So yea, the whole critiquing thing should be looked at a bit deeper at times. Some critiques are technical and worthwhile. Some are not technical at all and based on taste which varies. Some like and some don't....stalemate. And others are pretty worthless because they are technical but based on the original, which amounts to taste as well as a small mind artistically. (imo)

spanked!!!:D

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If you sound exactly like the original you might as well just listen to the original. I try to make a song my own. That means changing the melody. the rhythm, the feel. Sometimes it does not work. Next time I do it different.

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Tommy I relate a lot with the ideas of trainning you have, still for a number of reasons on singing its tough to get it that far. At least I never broke anyones ribs so far ahhaahahha, egos on the other hand...

On the original sound thing. The first step is to have a voice you can use to sing, if you dont, then everything else is meaningless. Then, the musical language. So you dont wanna sing the same melody, sure, no problems, make one. But then you need musicianship hehehe, and to have musicianship you need to train perception and learn from other musicians.

So in these cases its a good idea to listen to the original and try to capture the ideas, specially when venturing outside your own style. For example, if I want to do a Jazz song, and capture the Jazz feel, I will have to listen to jazz, listen to the song who knows how many thousands of time, and get the ideas being used.

Either that, or I go rock n roll / metal, alter the whole song and place some distorted guitars and Riff and make it fit MY sound.

What will suck completely is if I try to do whatever comes to my mind, with no familiarity with Jazz on top of a Jazz band playing...

About copying artists "sounds", usually what I hear here is more on the direction of a comical impersonation than actually capturing the intentions... Like singing a metallica song and placing a "hell yeah" on the end of every phrase... I never try to do it, and yet Ive heard more than once people telling me I sound "exactly" like this or that artist.

A sign I went in the right direction, usually a matter of dynamics and choices for legatto/rhythmic phrasing, simple stuff that has nothing to do with the fundamental quality of the vocal production.... A simple pause can capture more of the original artist than trying to mimic how he pronounces words...

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I already have two pets, a dog and a cat, and I shop for them at Petsmart or Petco, both of which have stores not too far from where I live.

Do you get the feeling this thread is going to the dogs?

Good Point Felipe. A solid foundation, then change the song to fit your style. I will keep that in mind from now on.

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Do you get the feeling this thread is going to the dogs?

Awesome, M. Especially considering my comments on dogs. Probably some kind of bot picked up on that word and that led to a hacker program inserting that in here.

Good job, M.

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Tommy I relate a lot with the ideas of trainning you have, still for a number of reasons on singing its tough to get it that far. At least I never broke anyones ribs so far ahhaahahha, egos on the other hand...

I agree and as I said above somewhere, while these ideas can't be translated exactly into singing instruction as well as many other teachings; the basic principles or philosophy of the method probably can.

On the original sound thing. The first step is to have a voice you can use to sing, if you dont, then everything else is meaningless. Then, the musical language. So you dont wanna sing the same melody, sure, no problems, make one. But then you need musicianship hehehe, and to have musicianship you need to train perception and learn from other musicians.

I agree with this also. I wasn't talking about just doing your own thing. I too study the original before recording or singing it my way. I also study other versions and interpretations by other artists as well as live versions. I try to learn the song as best I can in it's original form and then from there I take all I have learned from the various interpretations, add my twist and go for it.

My comments about sounding like the original pertained more to the voice. People tend to critique if you don't mimic the originals voice or vocal stylings. For the singer I think you should familiarize yourself with the original first but for the listener/critic I think they should step away from the original or expecting a carbon copy or even mimicked vocal sound.

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